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  1. #4261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    They wouldn't be the ones to go to court for this. This is the misunderstanding. We met the buyout and we're done. The people going to court against Genk would be Poz and his agent as they have already threatened. We just sit back and either wait or move on. Depends what our lawyers are advising Manning as they would know more about this situation legally.
    Not if this is the scenario, TFC would have provided legally binding paperwork, and Genk is not releasing the player, so it's TFC that is suffering damages. The party that is taking damages or whose contract is being interfered with is the one that sues. Genk has the player still, so it's us that have the damages, and would have to sue.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Problem with this argument is that the deal would already have happened if that were true. TFC/Pozo would have triggered the release clause days ago. So what would your reasoning be for why they haven’t done that?
    Not saying there is no dispute, just that TCF/Pozo not rushing off to court doesn't mean anything. Courts are (should be) a last resort. For everybody.

  3. #4263
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Not if this is the scenario, TFC would have provided legally binding paperwork, and Genk is not releasing the player, so it's TFC that is suffering damages. The party that is taking damages or whose contract is being interfered with is the one that sues. Genk has the player still, so it's us that have the damages, and would have to sue.
    But we wouldn't do that because we can't prove damages. Not getting a player cannot equal a proven loss and you must prove loss if we're seeking damages. Also if would take longer than the summer window to be resolved so it's pointless and costly to persue. If we're looking at court to try to enforce the buyout rather than damages then it's CAS and Poz's contract would probably fully run out before that had it's day in court.

    The person with damages to show is Poz and his agent. This is their case. If he wants to come here then he has to get it done.

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    Lets wave to all the Genk supporters coming in here for in depth analysis.

  5. #4265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    But we wouldn't do that because we can't prove damages. Not getting a player cannot equal a proven loss and you must prove loss if we're seeking damages. Also if would take longer than the summer window to be resolved so it's pointless and costly to persue. If we're looking at court to try to enforce the buyout rather than damages then it's CAS and Poz's contract would probably fully run out before that had it's day in court.

    The person with damages to show is Poz and his agent. This is their case. If he wants to come here then he has to get it done.
    Bad use of language by me. You don’t need “damages” to enforce a contract. You need “damages” in order to receive compensation. TFC would need to move to enforce.

    Genk just sits there, they have the player, they fold their arms and thumb their nose at everyone.

    Agree Pozo could also be the one to move this to court. Pozo definitely has, if he wants, an opportunity to be the new Bosman (I think we are all learning why it was a Belgian that created the case law on player movement in Europe).
    Last edited by ensco; 02-13-2019 at 11:32 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  6. #4266
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Genk just sits there, they have the player, they fold their arms and wait.

    Agree Pozo could also be the one to move this to court. Pozo definitely has, if he wants, an opportunity to be the new Bosman (I think we are all learning why it was a Belgian that created the case law on player movement in Europe).
    They can't really do this. If we say screw it and head to plan B then they're getting sued by Poz and they will lose. Plus it looks bad on FO for future player recruitment. Especially if this alleged contract Poz signed in January to stay until summer is a lie. Would you want to go work at a place that publicly lied about your contract status, brought your character into question in your field of practice, and cost you an improved financial opportunity.

  7. #4267
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    If we have to go the legal route we won't get the player for a while still, and that's no good for us. I don't think this can be solved legally under timelines that make sense to us. It really depends on Genk's willingness to come to the table and talk about how much money it will take to let him go. So far they don't seem at all willing to budge, which could be because they need him for their hopes of the Champions League and the money it brings (25 million Euros I think?). Or maybe they need to send a message to all present and future players. Who knows. But I doubt we can do this legally - just too time consuming and we have a game in two weeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    They can't really do this. If we say screw it and head to plan B then they're getting sued by Poz and they will lose. Plus it looks bad on FO for future player recruitment. Especially if this alleged contract Poz signed in January to stay until summer is a lie. Would you want to go work at a place that publicly lied about your contract status, brought your character into question in your field of practice, and cost you an improved financial opportunity.
    His contract is actually until 2021. The claim is there is an agreement he stays until June and the buyout clause can't be triggered until then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    His contract is actually until 2021. The claim is there is an agreement he stays until June and the buyout clause can't be triggered until then.
    This is the one that I am referring to. If that's a lie/bluff by FO, which Poz says it is, and that comes out in court then that is not a good look for Genk at all.

    Also, to back to what what said about our FO and Manning going back for more transfer money and looking inept. How will the owners or board of Genk react if their FO forces the player to stay, he sues them for damages, and the 8M Euro transfer is gone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    They can't really do this. If we say screw it and head to plan B then they're getting sued by Poz and they will lose. Plus it looks bad on FO for future player recruitment. Especially if this alleged contract Poz signed in January to stay until summer is a lie. Would you want to go work at a place that publicly lied about your contract status, brought your character into question in your field of practice, and cost you an improved financial opportunity.
    But they are doing it. Their behaviour indicates that they think they have a legal case. At least enough of a case to fight.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    But they are doing it. Their behaviour indicates that they think they have a legal case. At least enough of a case to fight.
    Either Poz & agent are lying about signing that agreement or Genk is lying about having it. That's easy to prove though. Just show it like Poz requested. Then it's over but that hasn't happened.

    Besides knowing how scuzzy agents are, I can't see any agent advising his client to do something that could cost him extra commissions.

  12. #4272
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    I hope this situation gets resolved quickly in a mutually amicable manner.

    This gentleman's agreement issue is really muddying the waters here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Either Poz & agent are lying about signing that agreement or Genk is lying about having it. That's easy to prove though. Just show it like Poz requested. Then it's over but that hasn't happened.

    Besides knowing how scuzzy agents are, I can't see any agent advising his client to do something that could cost him extra commissions.
    Nobody is lying. Issue is written vs verbal/handshake.

    Handshake/verbal agreements are bs here (ask Dero - he must be amused by this btw) but it sounds like they have some standing in Belgium.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Nobody is lying.
    Genk says there was an agreement in their statement never mentioning verbal or written. Poz says no agreement was ever reached in his public statement so someone is lying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Genk says there was an agreement in their statement never mentioning verbal or written. Poz says no agreement was ever reached in his public statement so someone is lying.
    I think you are wrong, but we are almost saying the same thing, it's just arguing over the meaning of “agreement”. So maybe it is splitting hairs. There is no way to know. We will find out I think. I don't think MLS can walk away.
    Last edited by ensco; 02-13-2019 at 12:18 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I think you are wrong, but no way to know. We will find out I think. I don't think MLS can walk away.
    Go back a few pages and read each official statement. It's right there in each of them. I went back to re-read both before I posted that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Go back a few pages and read each official statement. It's right there in each of them. I went back to re-read both before I posted that.
    No ensco's reading of the situation seems correct to me and I have the same view.

    Genk's statement specifically states they reached a "valid agreement" with Pozuelo that he would stay. It's not specified whether this is a written or verbal statement, only that they clearly believe it is valid.

    Pozuelo's statement specifically states that he has not signed a contract or agreement and dares Genk to produce one. All his denials have to do with there being a written agreement. Genk has never claimed to have a written statement though. Pozuelo goes on to say that he did state his "intention" to stay with Genk and that he was pressured by the club into doing so.

    It seems clear to me that the issue is Genk believes the verbal agreement they had with Pozuelo is valid and enforceable and Pozuelo believes it isn't.

    I am not a lawyer but I suspect Pozuelo's use of "it is true that I stated my intention to say" rather than something like "it is true that I agreed to stay" is to establish the fact that he never believed he was entering into a valid agreement with those prior statements. Similarly mentioning that he was under pressure to make those statements would further help his case, I imagine, should this ever go to court.
    Last edited by notthesun; 02-13-2019 at 03:30 PM.

  18. #4278
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    No ensco's reading of the situation seems correct to me and I have the same view.

    Genk's statement specifically states they reached a "valid agreement" with Pozuelo that he would stay. It's not specified whether this is a written or verbal statement, only that they clearly believe it is valid.

    Pozuelo's statement specifically states that he has not signed a contract or agreement and dares Genk to produce one. All his denials have to do with there being a written agreement. Genk has never claimed to have a written statement though. Pozuelo goes on to say that he did state his "intention" to stay with Genk and that he was pressured by the club into doing so.

    It seems clear to me that the issue is Genk believes the verbal agreement they had with Pozuelo is valid and enforceable and Pozuelo believes it isn't.

    I am not a lawyer but I suspect Pozuelo's use of "it is true that I stated my intention to say" rather than something like "it is true that I agreed to stay" is to establish the fact that he never believed he was entering into a valid agreement with those prior statements. Similarly mentioning that he was under pressure to make those statements would further help his case, I imagine, should this ever go to court.
    I can see this but I would expect a binding legal agreement to have some form, structure, or witnesses or else anybody could claim anything about anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I can see this but I would expect a binding legal agreement to have some form, structure, or witnesses or else anybody could claim anything about anyone.
    At least a "stamped it, no erasies."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I can see this but I would expect a binding legal agreement to have some form, structure, or witnesses or else anybody could claim anything about anyone.
    So the rub here is, what he said in agreement to stay (supposedly in an email if I have understood correctly) is less legally binding (or maybe not binding at all) vs. a hard contract.

    Sure, you claim pressure in signing a full contract too. But the court is going to set a much higher bar to successfully claim duress vs. something you might have promised in passing. Contracts take time to draw up, are negotiated at length, have lawyers involved, and all sorts of other reasons that lead courts to believe what is signed is carefully considered. An email in comparison is extremely flimsy.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 02-13-2019 at 04:06 PM.

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    If it helps, I found this on belgianlawyers.com:
    ——
    When signing a contract with a Belgian company, the parties should know that in Belgium all contracts must observe the provisions of the Belgian Civil Code and the Commercial Code. The Civil Code contains the basic principles of Contract Law and the Commercial Code contains special provisions for business activities.

    The Belgian contract law is generally flexible and allows private parties to conclude various types of contracts as they see fit.

    A contract is considered an agreement enforceable by law. It is bounding to both parties and, according to Belgian law, both offers and acceptances are considered binding and valid if the parties express their will to be bound according to the agreement and the said agreement creates certain expectations that need to be fulfilled.

    In order for the contract to be considered valid, both parties must agree to sign the document. The contract must be drawn up and according to Belgian jurisprudence, the signature is considered a `seal` of the agreement and is considered proof of the contractual obligation.

    Whenever signing contracts with a Belgian company the signatories must also be fully aware of the legal consequences of signing a particular agreement. Missing or misleading information can sometimes lead to various litigation cases in Belgium.
    ——
    However, don’t issues between clubs & players/agents ultimately have to be settled in CAS, not the courts?

    ** the signature part is interesting

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    This could undo a whole bunch of understandings that govern world football, if it goes to court.

    There is a chance that TFC is going to be the hero of what may come to be the “Super Bosnian” case or something. (Hero to players that is. Clubs will hate us.)
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    This could undo a whole bunch of understandings that govern world football, if it goes to court.

    There is a chance that TFC is going to be the hero of what may come to be the “Super Bosnian” case or something. (Hero to players that is. Clubs will hate us.)
    I somehow doubt that comes to fruition. Would put higher odds on 1) this all being theatrics to appease a fan base that ultimately amount to nothing but what we saw in the end with Giovinco or 2) if it’s actially a problem, TFC walking away.

  24. #4284
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    This could undo a whole bunch of understandings that govern world football, if it goes to court.

    There is a chance that TFC is going to be the hero of what may come to be the “Super Bosnian” case or something. (Hero to players that is. Clubs will hate us.)
    No one hates Dunkerque (the club in the Bosman case). It's notable that the Bosman case took two years to wind through the legal system. Nobody is going to wait that long, even if they are correct and he has to wait, he can leave in June.

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    ^Yeah that is probably true.

    But there is a lot of this business being done via verbal agreements and the CAS will take it on one day
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    How long without hearing anything before we assume it went bad and we've moved on to another target? Interestingly they have a Europa League game tomorrow. Whether he plays may be indicative of what's going on.

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    Also, Mauro Icardi was just stripped of his captaincy and was benched by Inter...

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    Season starts very soon, tfc lost some key players and have really have not filled those holes. Its no surprise that the champions league is in February and you are not prepared. This is poor management to say the least.. I hope all the wasn't riding on this one guy...
    This is pure amatur hour
    Last edited by metaxa; 02-13-2019 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Also, Mauro Icardi was just stripped of his captaincy and was benched by Inter...
    Somebody started the rumour of him to TFC on twitter already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Somebody started the rumour of him to TFC on twitter already.
    Ha no way. That was fast!

    I thought I was being clever getting it on here before anyone else.

 

 

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