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  1. #1
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    Default TFC changes at the top? Not of course! This is MLS...

    I just can't think about this without speaking out loud.
    Maybe just because I'm a European guy, and lived all my life in "European soccer mentality" until I started watching MLS exclusively because of TFC, in 2007?
    ------------------------

    Let's be honest about this for a second:
    In any of the world's top 10-12 soccer leagues, after:

    1. A team would have had a season like TFC had last year, and
    2. That team would have had a season like TFC had this year, and
    3. That team would have had by far the most expense with player salaries compared with the other teams from that league,

    Probably both the coach and the manager (see Vanney and Bez) would have been fired, or for sure at least one of them.
    (no matter all the injuries and the CCL factor this year, etc...etc...etc...etc...)

    Here this won't be the case, because in the MLS too many things are done too differently compared with the top soccer leagues of the World.
    And this is the major reason why MLS is still far from being one of the world's top leagues.
    It will never be one until too many things are done too different from the world's elite.

    -------------------

    Any other thoughts about this?

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    Just because the Europeans do it, it's better way of doing things?
    Let's really think about that

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    Leicester won the Premier League, then fired their manager when they had a losing streak. It didn't help.

    I know you are frustrated, we all are. However, an automatic reflex of firing the people in charge is how TFC sucked so bad from 2007-2013. So you are saying you want to go back to THAT???

    Stability brought us the first good seasons in history. Stability is what has led to most MLS dynasties.
    Perhaps the only lesson to learn from this is that an MLS squad does not have the depth to win MLS Cup and the CCL in the same season. Players will get injured from over use.

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    Well it's their job to figure out the mess that was this year. I'm sure Manning has his people and wouldn't hesitate to blow this up if 1/4 of the way in next year and we are struggling.

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    Murphy Malone tweeted:

    Since 2016, we’ve won 3 Voyageur Cups in a row, won the MLS Cup, Eastern conference Supporters shield , beaten on pks in the CL final and MLS Cup . That’s really good . They don’t need the abuse now from own “fans”.Short memories from some wearing “ AllForOne” shirts ☘️
    https://mobile.twitter.com/murphy_ma...38348912218112
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

    Supporting since 2007


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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaEatingYeti View Post
    I just can't think about this without speaking out loud.
    Maybe just because I'm a European guy, and lived all my life in "European soccer mentality" until I started watching MLS exclusively because of TFC, in 2007?
    ------------------------

    Let's be honest about this for a second:
    In any of the world's top 10-12 soccer leagues, after:

    1. A team would have had a season like TFC had last year, and
    2. That team would have had a season like TFC had this year, and
    3. That team would have had by far the most expense with player salaries compared with the other teams from that league,

    Probably both the coach and the manager (see Vanney and Bez) would have been fired, or for sure at least one of them.
    (no matter all the injuries and the CCL factor this year, etc...etc...etc...etc...)

    Here this won't be the case, because in the MLS too many things are done too differently compared with the top soccer leagues of the World.
    And this is the major reason why MLS is still far from being one of the world's top leagues.
    It will never be one until too many things are done too different from the world's elite.

    -------------------

    Any other thoughts about this?
    Yeah. I think it's good TFC isn't run by the likes of you. Otherwise, the first eight pathetic years of this franchise would be an endless loop. GTFOHYAH!!!
    TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)

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    We need stability. This whole team deserves the chance to right the wrongs of this season after what they’ve given the two previous seasons.

    Last season my English team had an incredible first half of the season, but a terrible second half. That included a club record 8 losses in a row. They didn’t sack the manager where as most clubs would have. It was the right decision. Teams need to stop making knee jerk decisions.

    Keep them, rest up, we’re on to 2019.
    Away trips: 2014 - Seattle. 2015 - Montreal. 2016 - Montreal x2. Playoffs - NYCFC, Montreal. 2017 - Salt Lake, Philly, Ottawa, Montreal, Chicago, LA, Atlanta. ​Playoffs - NYRB, Columbus. 2018 ​- Monterrey, MX (Tigres) CCL, Montreal, Ottawa, Montreal. 2019 - ​Philly

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    I'm willing to write this season as a one-off. You couldn't keep going up after year-on-year improvement. I'm really curious to see what happens when the players actually get a good two months off to rest and recover before the season starts. Remember that a lot of MLS teams that have made it to the MLS cup finals often don't even make the playoffs the following year. That's something that MLS should perhaps look into. Unless that's part of the design of the parity league.

  9. #9
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    Honestly, once you get past the top 5-6 leagues in the world obviously England, Spain, Germany, Italy, France etc , it gets pretty subjective so I wonder where the MLS does rank. On that note if ranking leagues, where does The Championship fit in, I figure its better than at least 2/3rds of Europes first division? On the note of TFC no way do I see Greg and Bez going anywhere after this season, they will still get the benefit of the Treble.

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaEatingYeti View Post
    I just can't think about this without speaking out loud.
    Maybe just because I'm a European guy, and lived all my life in "European soccer mentality" until I started watching MLS exclusively because of TFC, in 2007?
    ------------------------

    Let's be honest about this for a second:
    In any of the world's top 10-12 soccer leagues, after:

    1. A team would have had a season like TFC had last year, and
    2. That team would have had a season like TFC had this year, and
    3. That team would have had by far the most expense with player salaries compared with the other teams from that league,

    Probably both the coach and the manager (see Vanney and Bez) would have been fired, or for sure at least one of them.
    (no matter all the injuries and the CCL factor this year, etc...etc...etc...etc...)

    Here this won't be the case, because in the MLS too many things are done too differently compared with the top soccer leagues of the World.
    And this is the major reason why MLS is still far from being one of the world's top leagues.
    It will never be one until too many things are done too different from the world's elite.

    -------------------

    Any other thoughts about this?

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

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    We have had stability. We have had the same coach for 4 full seasons now. We lost in the Wildcard round of the MLS Playoffs in a blow out, MLS Cup due to short sighted thinking the first year. Won the Second. Lost the CCL because of defensive issues that have plagued the team all year failed to reach the playoffs in what is shaping up to be the worse season Vanney has had. He and everyone else is scapegoating the CCL as the reason.. yet Red Bulls are doing just fine.

    This is down to the Staff. I think Vanney is at the forefront because he didn't do anywhere near enough to fix the defense. We should have switched formations and played a much more defensive game or brought in a new defender. The FO made bad trades, the wrong trades. The Medical Staff failed to keep players healthy, Vanney failed to keep players healthy. The defence of the Team has been at fault all year.

    You can't play a 3-5-2 with 4 defenders and expect to make it through a long season. Yet in the off season we brought in so draft picks. Left Hernandez go then hastily resigned him. Dropped a Wing back starter and a developing wing back brought in a Midfielder and Wingbacks that weren't able to really play in the defender role of the 3-5-2. Which means we were left basically with 4 Defenders 2 that could play as the primaries and 2 the could play well as the third and in a pinch the 2nd and 3rd but not the primary defenders. The simple fact is we had a need for defenders in the off season and no one thought to bring any in. We needed defenders during the season. No one thought to bring any in.

    The people that didn't think to bring in Defenders in are the people who are to blame not the CCL. Vanney is suspect is the person that is at fault for that, Manning and Bez for not telling him he needs them and forcing them on him are also at fault. The Medical staff for not keeping players healthy, and Vanney for not being able to adapt with the Team he wanted. So while I know the realities is my opinions are attacked with ire from Vanney cultists so I'll leave it here.

  11. #11
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    If y'all want to support a local team where stability doesn't matter, y'all are going to have to move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    Just because the Europeans do it, it's better way of doing things?
    Let's really think about that
    Yeah agreed. Short term thinking is lot of what keeps teams / companies / people in general stuck in a cycle of failure.

    And keep in mind the TV revenues associated with top flight football in Europe vs. being relegated really puts a lot of these clubs into panic mode. They’d love the ability to rebuild if the structure of their league allowed for it. Luckily we don’t have to contend with such things.

    Make or break year for Bez and Vanney coming up, without a doubt but let’s not be hasty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    Just because the Europeans do it, it's better way of doing things?
    Let's really think about that
    Maybe not only the Europeans.
    Let's think about South America, which is the second strongest footy continent after Europe.

    Everyone else is a far cry from these 2...
    Last edited by PizzaEatingYeti; 09-23-2018 at 02:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Leicester won the Premier League, then fired their manager when they had a losing streak. It didn't help.
    Sorry, but this seems apples to oranges comparation, because Leicester's team value / spendings with player salaries was shit compared to the big teams in the EPL.
    TFC for the last 3 years has the most expensive roster in it's league.

    I think it's absurd not putting in balance any team's total roster salary / expectations / results. no matter which league of the world we are talking about.
    Last edited by PizzaEatingYeti; 09-23-2018 at 12:09 PM.

  15. #15
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    A couple of thoughts:
    - "Most expensive roster" is largely a red herring in MLS. Most of TFC's extra spending is due to the three DP contracts. Three players can only help so much in footy, compared with other "lower salary" MLS teams. I think our DPs have been quite good over a couple of years, although there have been some problems with injuries and/or consistency, especially this year. (Same for our almost-DP, Vazquez.)

    Once you get past the three DPs, TFC's salary is nothing special in MLS. Many teams make use of TAM / GAM etc.

    If you want to compare with Europe or South America: lots of big teams mess up on player signings, even on the biggest stars. W/o MLS's rules and limits, they can usually dump those players again, sign the next vain hope to "solve their problems quickly," especially if they're the biggest clubs with significantly more expensive rosters than the rest of their leagues.

    Plus in any of those leagues, there's much less drop-off in salary and quality throughout their roster, or (w/o salary cap) they can just sign another player to cover an injured player. So it's easier to deal with significant injuries (like TFC had this season) than in MLS.

    - In those leagues, switching coaches / managers is quite common, I agree with that. But it often doesn't help either, as has been shown in studies; in fact swapping coaches leads to worse results (on average). What seems to help team performance, on average? Continuity, and total player salary (not transfer fees). And the 2nd factor doesn't really work in MLS due to the salary cap.

    - I haven't been happy with many things this season. Vanney and Bez were part of the problem (but only part). Bill Manning and the rest of senior management will be making that very clear. Remember the demands that Manning set after Vanney's first partial season. If the off-season and the first half of 2019 don't go well, we may see changes earlier than most of us would like. Consider the turmoil that would follow any management change; we can assume to do even worse for at least a year after.

    Some relatively successful MLS expansion franchises as of late, are not valid examples for how quickly a turnaround can work. MLS expansion teams get huge advantages to start, including extra allocation money, expansion drafts, and more. Whereas "turnaround teams" start further back than the rest of the league, due to the contracts they have to shed, and other changes that they can't cover up with extra spending due to the salary cap.

    - I don't think there will be any management changes now, one year after winning the Treble with the most points in league history, and less than a year after knocking two Mexican teams out of CCL and losing on PKs in the final. I believe there will be some significant roster changes, but they won't be easy, and many won't be happy.

    The other things we will see for now, are the new hybrid field in the spring of 2019; and a new sports science/medical analysis company under contract to help avoid injuries. Those changes will take away some of the excuses we had this season and before.

    BTW I'm not sure that hybrid turf will reliably deal with the problems of Toronto's weather + the Argos. And I expect to see some more TFC injuries in CCL in early 2019, when they are still playing on the crappy grass, in crappy weather, with extra travel.

    - If MLS wants its teams to do better in CCL, then they will have to offer more relief, in terms of extra allocation money & roster flexibility, and better scheduling.
    Last edited by Auzzy; 09-23-2018 at 01:23 PM.

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    The real problem here is that the whole club was not ready for what was to come. I don't normally bring up clichés, but "you win and lose as a team" cannot be any more applicable in this case.

    Starting from the end of last season, the message from everyone (from the top to the bottom) was that we'll go after it all again. There was excitement about our future. Everyone was looking forward to next season. I feel, however, that there was a sense of overconfidence in the team as well, the feeling that they were untouchable, invincible, and unbeatable. Whilst that confidence is all well and good, it introduced complacency into our organisation. Bill Manning started talking about winning the CCL to seal the legacy; there was no mention of a 2nd MLS Cup. We decided to not prioritise the MLS in favour of the CCL. Everything we did was in disregard of the MLS campaign for arguably bigger and better things. NYRB didn't hold this attitude, though; they were still committed to the MLS even with their relatively good run in the CCL. We, however, put all of our eggs into the CCL basket, and I see this as a moment of naïvety from everyone. Keep in mind that Bezbatchenko wasn't a GM before coming to TFC, and this is still Vanney's first head-coach stint. Only Bill Manning has been through this before, but for the rest, this is pretty much their first time through such adversity.

    Instead of making big changes at the first sign of trouble, why can't we see what happens next season? Toronto FC isn't a club that can remain at the top in spite of personnel changes (no MLS club can do a Chelsea or Real Madrid and stay at the top). We don't have that overall stability and foundation of success in the team; we are still trying to build that up. We have yet to establish a stable footballing model that can sustain itself. Why try to fire the people who are trying to build that? Vanney's growing and developing tactically, and his tactical blunders will only disappear by learning from his mistakes. Bez will learn from this experience as well. The club, as a whole, will learn from this.

    For once, we had a sustained period of progress in our club. Why should we break it all apart at the first sign of trouble? If you want an example of a big, successful club that operates in this way, look no further than Manchester United, and then think about what could happen to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaEatingYeti View Post
    Maybe not only the Europeans.
    Let's think about South America, which is the second strongest footy continent after Europe.

    Everyone else is a far cry from these 2...
    Strong on footy because they have a pipeline of eager young althletes and an in-depth culture of the game.

    Is River Plate (or whoever) having 6 managers a year supposed to be a productive exercise? The administration side of the game in South America is troubled to say the least.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 09-27-2018 at 10:36 AM.

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    Agreed , we’ll have to waste another season or have a highly publized average one , as is the norm of in Canada as the fans are , to their credit super supportive before changes are made . But it doesn’t stop raises in seat prices .

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    Bring everyone back and start again next year. The only problem will be the balancing act between CL and MLS again early on. This team definitely does not have the squad depth to deal with both.

    European teams don't have the travel to deal with that an MLS side does. The two competitions is a nice idea, but this season shows it won't always work when put into practice.

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    I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. These guys didn't even get a break after the MLS Cup win less than a year ago, and went on to the CCL finals this year after putting the top Mexican teams to the sword. They did amazing. Something had to give though, if anything this just proves you guys value an MLS Cup over CCL, so be it. Next year they'll win it again after a long winter break, F__k the CCL for now,till we get a higher salary cap to get more bench strength. Peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercorporate View Post
    Next year they'll win it again after a long winter break, F__k the CCL for now,till we get a higher salary cap to get more bench strength. Peace.
    Problem is CCL starts up again next year first and if TFC goes all in again they may screw their MLS Cup chances again if we have the same bad luck. Hopefully not. At least they will have more rest before it starts. I don't think TFC will say screw the CCL for now like you are saying even though your statement is accurate about the bench strength/salary cap. MLS teams will still try to be the first to win CCL.

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    They're gambling big time if they're putting the results of this season down to bad luck with injuries

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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaEatingYeti View Post
    I just can't think about this without speaking out loud.
    Maybe just because I'm a European guy, and lived all my life in "European soccer mentality" until I started watching MLS exclusively because of TFC, in 2007?
    ------------------------

    Let's be honest about this for a second:
    In any of the world's top 10-12 soccer leagues, after:

    1. A team would have had a season like TFC had last year, and
    2. That team would have had a season like TFC had this year, and
    3. That team would have had by far the most expense with player salaries compared with the other teams from that league,

    Probably both the coach and the manager (see Vanney and Bez) would have been fired, or for sure at least one of them.
    (no matter all the injuries and the CCL factor this year, etc...etc...etc...etc...)

    Here this won't be the case, because in the MLS too many things are done too differently compared with the top soccer leagues of the World.
    And this is the major reason why MLS is still far from being one of the world's top leagues.
    It will never be one until too many things are done too different from the world's elite.

    -------------------

    Any other thoughts about this?
    I don't understand the point of this thread. What are you trying to figure out here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    I don't understand the point of this thread. What are you trying to figure out here?
    He's trying to figure out how to get us on board the #Vanneyout train

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    We've seen it from other teams in the league (example columbus). You get deep in the playoffs, then next year you're not even in the playoffs, and next year you're deep in the playoffs.

    We all know why we're in this situation. A good healthy period of time off, rest, recoup, and we'll be ready for 2019. We have the talent, we need the health.

    The last bit is the mental state. 2017 had a clear agenda - do something that's never been done. They did that.

    2018 did not have the laser focus, the ultimate goal. It was "we're good so we'll just try to do it again".

    2019 I fully expect there to be another key goal - and we'll achieve it.

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    There isn't a single MLS team that would be able to survive losing the spine of their team, including 75% of their defensive line for over 50% of the season. No MLS team has ever had that kind of depth. No MLS has that depth.

    If people expect the likes of Zavaleta and Hagglund to be able to step up and replace Moor and Mavinga - you don't know shit about the actual game of soccer.

    Marky Delgado was fighting for a spot with 3 other guys last season - how the hell do you expect him to step in and carry the load left by an injured Victor Vasquez

    Ricketts and Hamilton combines cannot replace Jozy

    Also - no right back to replace Auro - Ashtone morgan has played 100 games in the MLS and he is still not good enough to be an MLS starter

    Show me a team in the MLS who can continue to be as successful as they are without both of their starting CBs, a starting RB; their main MF playmaker and their starting striker.

    5 starters in key positions gone for more than 50% of the season.

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    You must spread some reputation around before giving it to jabbronies again.

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    This thread to me probably only makes sense as a discussion of the dark side of promotion/relegation.

    All these teams over in Europe that can managers based on a poor run, a few months of bad luck, or injuries. Italy is a total joke because of this, it has really hurt Serie A.

    My advice to TFC management: Don't just do something, stand there.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    If we want the thirst for blood quenched then look no further than the physio department.

    In my opinion it needs a clean sweep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    If we want the thirst for blood quenched then look no further than the physio department.

    In my opinion it needs a clean sweep.
    You can add ground crew as well. Turf has been awful throughout the year.

    Also fire TFC2 and academy staff while we are at it since they doing a poor job developing players for first team.

    I will give Bez and Vanney one more year to turn this ship around.

 

 

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