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  1. #61
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    Brutal

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    I have been here longer than you, suffered season tickets for six of the 11 years, I don’t owe you anything.
    I’ve been a season ticket holder since day one and I’ve been a Toronto pro soccer fan since the early 1970’s with the Toronto Metros, then Metros Croatia then onto the Toronto Blizzard of the old NASL until the league folded in 1984, so been supporting the different Toronto pro soccer teams since the early 70’s and now TFC so I don’t know how long you’ve been following pro soccer in Toronto but I have most of my life .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Some of this was foreseeable, some of it was not. In totality, it was still a poor move. Think of it this way: does VDW have more of an impact on this team than Walker Zimmerman has in LAFC? Than Matt Hedges has on FCD? Than Besler on SKC? The sad thing is Zimmerman wants a new contract and by the sounds of it his demands to stay are less than what VDW is currently making.

    If the goal was strengthening the team as much as possible they went about it the wrong way. It's exactly the same philosophy that lead to bringing in Aketxe to replace one of Osorio or Delgado (who were both serviceable). If Aketxe had worked out and was the right player for that role he would have make the team far better than either of Delgado or Osorio ever will. Unfortunately, a lot of that is now a sunk cost and TFC is taking half that budget charge to pay Aketxe to play elsewhere with the other half likely paying for Osorio's raise.

    Beitashour would have probably stayed for an extra 50k. He wasn't looking for the world. He wanted a raise because everyone else who had come up for contract received one. I think he was well within his rights to ask for a little more. If management thought that was too much then fine, but don't go out and buy a golden-toilet seat for our crumbling outhouse of defence.
    VDW was an attempt to buy a player who was once talented in the hopes that he’d show up, and he has. Same as clubbing Mavinga, Jozy at an “impressive” PL club, or benched Seba (though not to the same extent). He did. He didn’t cost much more than Beita after you factor in TAM, so it really doesn’t matter. TFC is also paying people money on celebrity factor, in order to make the team more marketable. Is this wise? Probably not, but it’s pretty standard for some teams in big markets. Our backup wingback (Auro) has been okay, but also injured.

    Everyone got a raise after an excellent season. Morrow hasn’t played like he did last year after his injury, our defenders have all been out, VDW did better at CB than Bradley (why are we paying Bradley $6 mil a year to play CB?), Zavaleta is hot trash (and more overpaid than VDW in terms of $ to quality on the pitch), Hagglund has been bad too, Bono has made some great saves but let in some head scratchers, Ricketts has been a joke, Hamilton and Bakero aren’t up to snuff, Chapman is mediocre (though his Instagram begs to differ), and without VV, Seba, and Jozy we may as well not even try to score.

    The injury issue was real, TFC2 is awful, our bench players aren’t great, and some of the buys were bad. VDW wasn’t a bad buy, even if he was expensive. If our options were spending money on Beita and playing him at CB or VDW, I’d take VDW.

    Buying a non garbage player instead of a failed Basque loan would have been much more impactful.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    VDW was an attempt to buy a player who was once talented in the hopes that he’d show up, and he has. Same as clubbing Mavinga, Jozy at an “impressive” PL club, or benched Seba (though not to the same extent). He did. He didn’t cost much more than Beita after you factor in TAM, so it really doesn’t matter.
    Of course it matters, we're depending on the efficiency of our dollars spent to be competitive with (or better than) other teams in the league. If we spend our TAM on players that have less of an impact it hurts. It's not a black hole.

    I'm not arguing VDW is a bad player. His ability to impact the game is simply far less than other positions on the field.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 09-22-2018 at 06:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    BS, you've been grinding this Osorio axe for weeks. The guy was one of the best performers in last year's playoffs and during the CCL this season. If anything the recent evidence says he is a big game player.

    Agreed, not a great game today but give it a rest.
    Look, I don’t hate Osorio. However, the idolatry bestowed on him, mostly from Canadian MSM, is irritating. He is an average MLS midfielder, who scored many goals this year, largely because he played with Seba and Vasquez. When he is out there alone, he has games like today. Hence, it would be foolhardy for Bez to rebuild around him. I am more concerned actually, with the lack of productivity by Morrow, who in my opinion, is a much better player.
    For next season, and beyond, we need to replace almost every player who started today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    Look, I don’t hate Osorio. However, the idolatry bestowed on him, mostly from Canadian MSM, is irritating. He is an average MLS midfielder, who scored many goals this year, largely because he played with Seba and Vasquez. When he is out there alone, he has games like today. Hence, it would be foolhardy for Bez to rebuild around him. I am more concerned actually, with the lack of productivity by Morrow, who in my opinion, is a much better player.
    For next season, and beyond, we need to replace almost every player who started today.
    I too am skeptical if this new Osorio contract will work out. It's a leap of faith based on a watershed performance in a contract year. But I do suggest some of what you're saying is unfair. He has legitimately played much better this year following a great MLS cup performance and deserves credit for it.

    As for the team, I'd be tempted to de-assemble some things this off season. It's sad to see it all go down this way because these guys really fought hard for those two years and played their assess off. But sport is cruel and being too sentimental will hurt you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Of course it matters, we're depending on the efficiency of our dollars spent to be competitive with (or better than) other teams in the league. If we spend our TAM on players that have less of an impact it hurts. It's not a black hole.

    I'm not arguing VDW is a bad player. His ability to impact the game is simply far less than other positions on the field.
    I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but just that the FO couldn’t have seen the extent of our injuries. VDW over Beita is not a negative move, when plenty of the other ones have been. Could that TAM have been used to buy another player? Yes. However, we spent a bunch of TAM on Aketxe and he was the far more egregious error. Bakero for Hasler? What was the point of that?

    VDW was a good signing, performed well (even at CB), and was probably one of the better moves the FO made in terms of bringing in players. Is he expensive? Maybe, but you’re ignoring everything else to focus on the price tag of a guy who has (on the field) been a positive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but just that the FO couldn’t have seen the extent of our injuries. VDW over Beita is not a negative move, when plenty of the other ones have been. Could that TAM have been used to buy another player? Yes. However, we spent a bunch of TAM on Aketxe and he was the far more egregious error. Bakero for Hasler? What was the point of that?

    VDW was a good signing, performed well (even at CB), and was probably one of the better moves the FO made in terms of bringing in players. Is he expensive? Maybe, but you’re ignoring everything else to focus on the price tag of a guy who has (on the field) been a positive.
    You could have seen that Vanney's nephew wasn't the right number 3, left him open in the expansion draft protected a promising young Canadian and brought in a capable 3rd centre back in the off season. That would have made all the difference.

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    Why do people ride on VDW... He's been arguably the best player on the backline all year because of injuries to Mavinga & Moor. Zavs and Haggs have been garbage this year. They're alright when playing with Mavinga & Moor in a 3-5-2 but terrible in a 4-4-2. The team needs CBs who fit into a 4-4-2 if they want to play it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    You could have seen that Vanney's nephew wasn't the right number 3, left him open in the expansion draft protected a promising young Canadian and brought in a capable 3rd centre back in the off season. That would have made all the difference.
    So you’d prefer we kept Raheem, who I like, but who isn’t great defensively, or better than our other options, shipped nephew who was okay last year with Moor and Mavinga, and left us with who as CB? Is Raheem going to play CB?

    They obviously didn’t expect Moor and Mavinga to be out the entire season. If hindsight is what we’re aiming for, why not get rid of Mavinga, Moor, VV, and everyone else who was injured? Pointless.

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    I totally agreed on the decision to pick Zavaleta over Raheem. Zavaleta had been far more core to the 2017 success, and had more value as an American.

    But in hindsight, it was a mistake. Zavaleta has really regressed. I didn't see that coming.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Yeah Raheem is a player we would really value.

    This is going to be a very different and interesting offseason.

    There are so many question marks with this team.

    Giovinco, Altidore, Bradley, Vazquez: The future of our core elite stars are all questionable due to either contract status or injuries

    Janson: He's on a 3.7 million buy option. While he's a good player; he's closer to an Osorio, VDW tier; not DP money.

    Moor: Really getting up there in age.

    Basically there is uncertainty with our 6 best players; and we desperately need 2 more quality CB's.

    Most importantly we need to get players who are healthy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defoe View Post
    Yeah Raheem is a player we would really value.

    This is going to be a very different and interesting offseason.

    There are so many question marks with this team.

    Giovinco, Altidore, Bradley, Vazquez: The future of our core elite stars are all questionable due to either contract status or injuries

    Janson: He's on a 3.7 million buy option. While he's a good player; he's closer to an Osorio, VDW tier; not DP money.

    Moor: Really getting up there in age.

    Basically there is uncertainty with our 6 best players; and we desperately need 2 more quality CB's.

    Most importantly we need to get players who are healthy.
    I think we are in for a tough five years. Even if this current team made the playoffs, and had some success, would anybody feel comfortable next year with most of the same players?
    I would keep Seba, Osorio, Delgado, Jansen, Morrow, Bono, Auro and Mavinga. Everyone else is expendable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Woolfe View Post
    Janson is a waste of a Jersey and I fancy even Hamilton would have taken one of those two chances. Janson’s shooting is just so lame. Bez and Vanney rightly so got plaudits for their work last season but there can be no doubt both have let us down this year. Bradley at CH just doesn’t work and is an example of some of the poor line up decisions that has plagued Vanney this season. Also there surely can’t be any doubt Bez has traded us into a far weaker position than we were last year. Letting Beta go was his first mistake and the two replacements VDW and Auro are just not up to the task. He has failed completely to strengthen us up front and letting Hasler go for next to nothing was criminal. If we don’t make the play offs one or both these guys have a lot of questions to answer to keep their jobs

    edit - I didn’t know Séba was injured in that meaningless midweek game
    This would have made absolutely no difference, and every time I read this from you, I feel like you haven't even watched a game. I'm sorry, but VDW could not have been expected to replace the loss of Mavinga/Moor due to INJURIES, and Beita would have faired no better, as much as I like the guy. Is VDW overpaid, perhaps he is, but he's a much better player. Is Auro as good as Beita? Maybe not if you're considering one aspect of the game, but Auro is much more versatile, younger, and provides more going forward.

    Losing Beita this season is likely the one thing that didn't actually impact our results this season, not even in the least. Its a complete waste of time to continue beating that to death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I totally agreed on the decision to pick Zavaleta over Raheem. Zavaleta had been far more core to the 2017 success, and had more value as an American.

    But in hindsight, it was a mistake. Zavaleta has really regressed. I didn't see that coming.
    I usually agree with most of what you say but, this one I don’t. I’ve been saying it since the start of the 2017 season. He was our weak point in our starting 11. That series against Montreal in 2016, I will always remember how Montreal kept attacking his side of the field, and many mistakes he made. He was sheltered by what in my opinion is the best, or 2nd best CB in the league, and Moor, who a very smart defender CB compared to others in the MLS. Moor is also our only good CB at moving the ball out the back, which for me, hadn’t been talked about enough. Hagglund and Zavaleta are 2 of the worst passing CB’s in the league.

    I was screaming for a CB before the year started. Now we need to either get 2 of them, or VDW has to play in the back 3, and we just get 1. Auro is very interesting player for me. I think he’s horrible defensively, but is very good wide player going forward. I’m honestly not worried about Gio or Altidore creating and scoring goals. We need:

    1 CB plus GVW moving to CB (or 2 CB’s)
    A decent 3rd forward

    Those are musts. I’d like to find a better keeper, as Bono has regressed this season, and has always been a horrible passer, but that’s not a major concern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    So you’d prefer we kept Raheem, who I like, but who isn’t great defensively, or better than our other options, shipped nephew who was okay last year with Moor and Mavinga, and left us with who as CB? Is Raheem going to play CB?

    They obviously didn’t expect Moor and Mavinga to be out the entire season. If hindsight is what we’re aiming for, why not get rid of Mavinga, Moor, VV, and everyone else who was injured? Pointless.
    I would have to say I agree with just about everything you say regarding VDW. The FO signed VDW because our starting 11 was so strong already the last 2 years, and he is an upgrade on what we had at his position. I would say that it was a good move, and actually kept the salary on the field each night, rather than spending the money on bench players that wouldn't really do anything to improve our best 11 each night. Hindsight would tell us we needed 2 CBs/mid/striker but we couldn't have known, and therefor I can't put any blame on Bez for that.
    There is an argument to be made about this summer and getting Janson instead of a CB, but who knows. Had we done that, and now Giovinco and Altidore are out, we would have been screaming for a forward.

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    A year ago, we all thought Zavaletta was a serviceable #3 CB. We all thought Bono was a good keeper for MLS. We all thought Delgado was a starter on any MLS team. We all thought Ricketts was a decent guy off the bench.

    Guys are playing now based on 2017. That happens in this league. A significant portion of our team regressed while the best players all got injured (except for Bradley). The only player who got better was Osorio.

    I expect Zavs & Ricketts to be gone. I also think Janson isn't getting picked up. People calling for a complete overhaul havn't been watching Columbus or NYRB. They also are ignoring our own history and what is going on in Orlando. Stability helps a lot in this league.

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    The biggest failure for this team over the last 5 seasons is not developing even 1 USL quality defender. That is just absurd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    A year ago, we all thought Zavaletta was a serviceable #3 CB. We all thought Bono was a good keeper for MLS. We all thought Delgado was a starter on any MLS team. We all thought Ricketts was a decent guy off the bench.

    Guys are playing now based on 2017. That happens in this league. A significant portion of our team regressed while the best players all got injured (except for Bradley). The only player who got better was Osorio.

    I expect Zavs & Ricketts to be gone. I also think Janson isn't getting picked up. People calling for a complete overhaul havn't been watching Columbus or NYRB. They also are ignoring our own history and what is going on in Orlando. Stability helps a lot in this league.
    Anyone who has followed Ricketts career could have foreseen the guy was not a capable backup striker. I doubt Zavaletta leaves with his personal ties to the coaching staff. Ricketts would almost be a certainty in my mind. Bono is still a good keeper, he’s just struggling though a cold stretch. It would be nice if he could stop the odd penalty though.

    Does thinking long term mean waiting when the most important player on your team is entering a contract year? I think there are a certain number of decisions in the offseason that will be brought to the forefront. Time is not on our side in many respects, unfortunately. Otherwsie, I’d be all for waiting as the long term strategy.

    This is blue jays after making the playoffs in 2016 territory. There’s inklings we might not be better in the future than we are right now but can going a new direction be made acceptable to the fan base? Does the money exist to reload?

    We have no Tyler Adams or other young influential players coming to the forefront the way RBNY did. Our salary obligations look pretty near fully loaded. Not the best situation, in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Anyone who has followed Ricketts career could have foreseen the guy was not a capable backup striker. I doubt Zavaletta leaves with his personal ties to the coaching staff. Ricketts would almost be a certainty in my mind. Bono is still a good keeper, he’s just struggling though a cold stretch. It would be nice if he could stop the odd penalty though.

    Does thinking long term mean waiting when the most important player on your team is entering a contract year? I think there are a certain number of decisions in the offseason that will be brought to the forefront. Time is not on our side in many respects, unfortunately. Otherwsie, I’d be all for waiting as the long term strategy.

    This is blue jays after making the playoffs in 2016 territory. There’s inklings we might not be better in the future than we are right now but can going a new direction be made acceptable to the fan base? Does the money exist to reload?

    We have no Tyler Adams or other young influential players coming to the forefront the way RBNY did. Our salary obligations look pretty near fully loaded. Not the best situation, in general.
    This winter we will see what Bez is really made of. We have many assets that could help the league contenders, and hopefully, he will have the skill to wrestle good young talent by trading Bradley, Altidore, Irwin, VDM, Moor...etc. There is no point holding on to any of the aforementioned players. If we can’t make the playoffs with them, how are we going to do next season, with them a year older? Bradley is the key. He would be a perfect addition to teams like Atlanta or LA, and TFC could pick up a tremendous player or two.
    Having written this, I would not want Seba moved. I think in a new Higuain role, he could be our creative attacking mid for many years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    I think in a new Higuain role, he could be our creative attacking mid for many years.
    Seba can get far more than an Higuain type salary though. Higuain makes only $1M. a year.

    There has to be a $4-6M bid for Seba in China or Mexico. Eder, a pretty good comparable to Seba, just went from Inter to China for about $6M/year (the mega transfers have cooled off in China, this is exactly the type of deal that market has moved towards in last 12 months). We have to pay at least the low end of that to keep him.

    I'd do it, but it's not my money.
    Last edited by ensco; 09-23-2018 at 02:36 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Seba can get far more than an Higuain type salary though. Higuain makes only $1M. a year.

    There has to be a $4-6M bid for Seba in China or Mexico. Eder, a pretty good comparable to Seba, just went from Inter to China for about $6M/year (the mega transfers have cooled off in China, this is exactly the type of deal that market has moved towards in last 12 months). We have to pay at least the low end of that to keep him.

    I'd do it, but it's not my money.
    The megatransfers have cooled off because of a 100% tax on foreign buys, and teams are not going to buy anyone who won’t put butts in seats at this point. They’re mainly targeting cheaper Brazilian/Africans who will actually be tempted to play while they’re there and don’t have much celebrity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I totally agreed on the decision to pick Zavaleta over Raheem. Zavaleta had been far more core to the 2017 success, and had more value as an American.

    But in hindsight, it was a mistake. Zavaleta has really regressed. I didn't see that coming.
    I think the only reason Zavaleta was acceptable last year was because he was sandwiched between Beita and Moor, both of whom gave him a lot of cover. This year he is more exposed and he just isn't smart enough football-wise to know where to be. VDW is probably the worst choice beside him as he likes to drift forward to support the offense. I actually think we were better with Morgan at RB because he provided more defensive cover for Zavaleta.

    However the simplest answer is to dump Zavaleta. And fast.

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    Zavs drives me nuts too. Too many mistakes over and over. Also, every time Bradley plays defense now I know we are going to lose....I said it at the start of the game on Saturday and it happened again. I think VDW did a better job as a CB fill in when he called upon earlier in the year. I think they should have put him in there instead of Bradley and let Bradley play his normal role in front of the defense. Auro (not sure if fully healthy) preferably or Morgan could have filled in at RB. Oh well. We really need something to be sorted out in many areas.

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    Zavaleta and Hagglund both also had injury-related layoffs. I think they both came back even weaker & slower than before. Add to that they're fairly young & inexperienced; the team was bad; the defense, keeper & defensive midfield were all bad; they each screwed up; they still had to play anyway because our options were limited; their confidence got even worse as a result and they played even worse: classic negative feedback cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    Zavs drives me nuts too. Too many mistakes over and over. Also, every time Bradley plays defense now I know we are going to lose....I said it at the start of the game on Saturday and it happened again. I think VDW did a better job as a CB fill in when he called upon earlier in the year. I think they should have put him in there instead of Bradley and let Bradley play his normal role in front of the defense. Auro (not sure if fully healthy) preferably or Morgan could have filled in at RB. Oh well. We really need something to be sorted out in many areas.
    VDW probably would have played CB, but Auro was out too, leaving us with Morgan (who I’m not sure would cut it either, as much as we all love the guy) to slot in there, and he even had to play while Morrow was out... VDW was also out some games.

    It was just the perfect storm of injuries, especially defensively, and when forwards start missing games we have no one to score because our attacking depth is terrible as well.

    Osorio has played well, but if his form isn’t permanent we could go back to seeing the old Osorio mindlessly losing the ball, blasting the ball into orbit, or doing nothing but passing backwards.

    Jansen would obviously be a DP if he was picked up, but is he worth it? If the injury prone players can’t get fit it means they have to blow up the team.

    VV was instrumental to our treble, and I don’t see him getting back into it. Moor as well. I’d keep Jozy and Seba, Bradley if we never have to watch him play CB again, and Mavinga if he can get healthy. VDW I don’t mind staying. Morrow too, but he hasn’t been nearly as good as last year.

    At the least we need 2 quality CBs, a serviceable backup striker, and either a replacement for VV or another starting striker if Seba moves into that role.

    Pretty big offseason.

 

 

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