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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by shwade View Post
    Firing Vanney would be madness. Nelson didn't accomplish 1/5 of what Vanney has. Full squad Vanney can't really be doubted in MLS.
    The few Vanney haters left ignore anything positive he's done (like the technical sophistication in how the team shifted formations effortlessly against Atlanta most recently, and many times last year, which is 100% coaching) and look for any shreds of evidence to keep on holding to the opinion that he should be fired.

    This is classical cognitive bias.
    Psychologists have noted for a long time that humans hate to change their views, and will tend to cling to whatever first impressions they had at the beginning. The fact is it's true Vanney wasn't what many people wanted when he came (many wanted a "big name" coach from abroad) and was pretty green at the beginning. However, he's by now one of the best coaches in MLS according to most journalists. However, it's hard to change that first impression!

    Here's an interesting link to cognitive bias:

    https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/...nitive-bias-13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The few Vanney haters left ignore anything positive he's done (like the technical sophistication in how the team shifted formations effortlessly against Atlanta most recently, and many times last year, which is 100% coaching) and look for any shreds of evidence to keep on holding to the opinion that he should be fired.

    This is classical cognitive bias.
    Psychologists have noted for a long time that humans hate to change their views, and will tend to cling to whatever first impressions they had at the beginning. The fact is it's true Vanney wasn't what many people wanted when he came (many wanted a "big name" coach from abroad) and was pretty green at the beginning. However, he's by now one of the best coaches in MLS according to most journalists. However, it's hard to change that first impression!

    Here's an interesting link to cognitive bias:

    https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/...nitive-bias-13
    Definitely. Admittedly I was unhappy with his interim tag being removed back then because I was expecting something bigger after firing Nelsen.

    But after what he's accomplished in less than 3 seasons...what more could we possibly ask for? Right now we have a 'tried and tested' coach that people want to throw away for untried and untested.

    If we have to blame someone then I guess the guy is Bez with his duds this year but again...benefit > doubt. These were rare missteps from him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The few Vanney haters left ignore anything positive he's done (like the technical sophistication in how the team shifted formations effortlessly against Atlanta most recently, and many times last year, which is 100% coaching) and look for any shreds of evidence to keep on holding to the opinion that he should be fired.

    This is classical cognitive bias.
    Psychologists have noted for a long time that humans hate to change their views, and will tend to cling to whatever first impressions they had at the beginning. The fact is it's true Vanney wasn't what many people wanted when he came (many wanted a "big name" coach from abroad) and was pretty green at the beginning. However, he's by now one of the best coaches in MLS according to most journalists. However, it's hard to change that first impression!

    Here's an interesting link to cognitive bias:

    https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/...nitive-bias-13

    While I agree that he shouldn't be fired during the season. Last nights game was a classic Vanney move too. There was a time that the best way for a team to go through TFC was get a red. Last night showed that in spades. Vanney makes a serious of tactical changes that basically made it easier for Vancouver to counter. Now that has as much to do with Ganter still getting Refing gigs as anything, but last night TFC got out played by a former TFC player this organization did wrong by. Thankfully Henry did something classic.

    Other coaches of better quality could do the same things he has done. I have never said he hasn't done anything right. I've said what he has done wrong has been an issue.

    Last night we had to take two Defenders off the pitch. Why are TFC defenders getting so many injuries this year?
    Why does defending totally fall apart once one or two players are removed. He is supposed to be coach of the year. And this the deepest team in history. It is only deep in the Midfield though. Once you remove Seba, Jozy, Drew Moore, and Mavinga the team falls apart. Bottom Table.. hell you don't even need to remove Seba he has disappeared for the most part this season.. getting decent assists but not really scoring.

    I feel the negatives out way any positives.

    I think we can do better.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post

    Other coaches of better quality could do the same things he has done. I have never said he hasn't done anything right. I've said what he has done wrong has been an issue.

    ...
    There are now maybe 4 coaches of Vanney's quality in the league.

    Martino - outcoached by Vanney now twice in two games in Atlanta

    Bradley - not faced

    Torrent - 1 game - we will see this Sunday

    Berhalter - consistently good games with little to nothing between the two except injuries & red cards


    Nobody else in the league is of the quality of those 5.

    The idea that there is some magic bullet out waiting to coach this team is just...not true.

    *******

    But if we must talk about the decisions made last night:

    Bench

    Bono GK

    Morrow LWB LCB LB RB RWB
    Hernandez CB
    Telfer LWB LM
    Fraser CM
    Hamilton F
    Bokero F



    Up a man at the half, Mavinga is ailing - take him off for Justin Morrow who goes into the 3-5-2 as the LCB.

    Auro injured - Telfer in to the LWB (he can't play LCB) Morgan goes to LCB Morrow goes to RWB

    Morgan can't keep pace with Davies anymore - Hernandez into the middle.

    I'm not sure what other choices there were? Fraser, Hamilton, Bokero? Injuries always rearrange game plans. That our best defender went out at the half messed everything else up. Mavinga vs. Davies, who is a once every 5 years sort of forward MLS normally does not see, is our way to deal with him. Morgan & Osorio double teamed Davies knowing that Mavinga was available for backup. In the second half, we gave up counter after counter & the only defender on this team who could have forestalled that was subbed.

    The team stunk. Guys played poorly. Ricketts has had his chance & shouldn't see the pitch again. I see why choices were made to bring certain players along and others not. Circumstances got the best of the roster set up. The players not playing up to their potential (with the exceptions of Bradley & Osorio & Irwin) almost lost us that game.

  5. #245
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    Vanney makes the occasional slip-up tactically, but as has been stated, those occasions are rare – game-in, game-out he's usually on top of everything.

    There's not way at all he should be fired. That's just silly.

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    My point was more to do with the argument that we won't be able to make the playoffs than to do with firing Vanney. And Nelsen dealt with on and off injured Defoe (plus petulance) and Gilberto and Bradley was playing injured that season, so yeah.

    Nelsen's team through the summer was far worse than Vanney's even with injuries and strategic disagreement with Bez, yet performed better.

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    Letís not rehash Ryan Nelson. He was simply not a good coach regardless of the roster (which I think he should bare some responsibility for).

    Terrible negative tactics and clearly did not understand how to define players roles in a modern game.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 08-09-2018 at 11:07 PM.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    While I agree that he shouldn't be fired during the season. Last nights game was a classic Vanney move too.
    You're actually illustrating my point about cognitive bias, selectively choosing data points to support a conclusion that you already arrived at several years ago, rather than reassessing your viewpoint in light of new evidence.

    It was a totally reasonable thing to disagree with hiring a coach with no first team experience when he was hired. A lot of us felt that way. When Kreis became available, I wanted Kreis over Vanney because Kreis had a proven track record.

    However, after he won the triple (showing quite sophisticated tactics while doing so), after CONCACAF declared him one of the best coaches in the federation, it is reasonable to reassess the view that Vanney is inexperienced and not a solid coach. Clinging to the idea that he's not good enough is... cognitive bias (and cognitive bias is something all us humans do from time to time).

    I changed my mind. I'm not ashamed to say that. A lot of us changed our minds.

    Except for a couple of teams that have equivalent quality of coaches, almost any team in the league would love to take Vanney from us.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 08-10-2018 at 07:03 AM.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    Vanney makes the occasional slip-up tactically, but as has been stated, those occasions are rare – game-in, game-out he's usually on top of everything.

    There's not way at all he should be fired. That's just silly.
    People hate his tactic this year, but they are the same tactics he used last year and it won us the treble. Vanney has built an interconnected team that works very well together.

    It's mind boggling that people - even in the media - can't see why this team didn't perform in the first half of the season the way it did last year.

    Injuries to key positions. plain and simple

    Our game is to build from the back. Our entire back line has been decimated by injuries all season - How the well do you think a team can build from the back when your entire backline is made up of bench players?
    MLS isn't a league that can afford starters to sit on the bench like in other leagues. Our bench guys are good when surrounded by starters - but when they are lined up with other bench players, the shallowness of the leagues roster structure begins to show. Yes we have depth - MLS level depth - not EPL or even league MX depth. These guys are good enough to hold down a position and nothing more. when there are too many of them on the field, things don't happen that should happen.

    Drew Moor and Chris Mavinga make our midfield trio better, including and especially Micheal Bradley. They manage the defensive responsibilities of the team so that our midfield doesn't have to think about it. They can focus on forward movement - and if they are needed on defence - Moor or Mavinga will let them know exactly where they need to be and when.

    Victor Vazquez has been injured for most of this season - you know - the guy everyone was talking about last season - the key to unlocking defences - 16 assist / 8 goals Victor Vazquez - the guy who was doing things all over the pitch that stats can't begin to describe. Our offensive success is linked to this man. Aketxe was a good attempt to bring in a backup for him but it didn't work. I wanna know who thought going out and getting a younger version of Vasquez was going to be easy is a bit delusional and doesn't really understand the market.

    Jozy Altidore makes Sebastian Giovinco better. if you can't see that and need me to explain how - then you are not watching the game.

    This is a lot of shit to deal with. No team in the league can cope with this type of stress on their roster. And to be honest - I'd be surprised to see a team in Europe deal with this shit as well.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post

    It's mind boggling that people - even in the media - can't see why this team didn't perform in the first half of the season the way it did last year.
    Its not really that mind boggling though....reason being that there are still a very small portion of the local media who are following TFC enough to recognise the cause of the earlier poor form.

    I know Larson & Wolstat reference the injuries often in their pieces, and I'm sure Molinaro is/was doing the same, but after those guys how many more are assigned to the team?
    The Star had Laura Armstrong writing regularly about TFC last year, but it seems they've moved her on to the Jays, and don't even have a beat reporter for TFC anymore.....most of the articles on their site are from CP or AP.

    Of course, all it would take is for these media types to do a little bit of research before they write crap about the team, but apparently that's too much work to do for TFC.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    People hate his tactic this year, but they are the same tactics he used last year and it won us the treble. Vanney has built an interconnected team that works very well together.

    It's mind boggling that people - even in the media - can't see why this team didn't perform in the first half of the season the way it did last year.

    Injuries to key positions. plain and simple

    Our game is to build from the back. Our entire back line has been decimated by injuries all season - How the well do you think a team can build from the back when your entire backline is made up of bench players?
    MLS isn't a league that can afford starters to sit on the bench like in other leagues. Our bench guys are good when surrounded by starters - but when they are lined up with other bench players, the shallowness of the leagues roster structure begins to show. Yes we have depth - MLS level depth - not EPL or even league MX depth. These guys are good enough to hold down a position and nothing more. when there are too many of them on the field, things don't happen that should happen.

    Drew Moor and Chris Mavinga make our midfield trio better, including and especially Micheal Bradley. They manage the defensive responsibilities of the team so that our midfield doesn't have to think about it. They can focus on forward movement - and if they are needed on defence - Moor or Mavinga will let them know exactly where they need to be and when.

    Victor Vazquez has been injured for most of this season - you know - the guy everyone was talking about last season - the key to unlocking defences - 16 assist / 8 goals Victor Vazquez - the guy who was doing things all over the pitch that stats can't begin to describe. Our offensive success is linked to this man. Aketxe was a good attempt to bring in a backup for him but it didn't work. I wanna know who thought going out and getting a younger version of Vasquez was going to be easy is a bit delusional and doesn't really understand the market.

    Jozy Altidore makes Sebastian Giovinco better. if you can't see that and need me to explain how - then you are not watching the game.

    This is a lot of shit to deal with. No team in the league can cope with this type of stress on their roster. And to be honest - I'd be surprised to see a team in Europe deal with this shit as well.
    Amen!

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post


    Nobody else in the league is of the quality of those 5.

    The idea that there is some magic bullet out waiting to coach this team is just...not true.
    Now who has the cognitive bias. Just 5 coaches. The whole world has just 5 coaches, so why look.



    Also Jabbronies... I hated his tactics last year and the year before. He tends to under prepare the team for games he doesn't rate highly which is why we had a 5 game blow out. two years ago anytime there was a red card we were lucky to come away with a point. We still play Lets to do the same thing over and over and over again that has never worked and burns us but maybe it will work this time because bandwagon.
    Last edited by Kaz; 08-11-2018 at 09:06 AM.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post

    Also Jabbronies... I hated his tactics last year and the year before. He tends to under prepare the team for games he doesn't rate highly which is why we had a 5 game blow out. two years ago anytime there was a red card we were lucky to come away with a point. We still play Lets to do the same thing over and over and over again that has never worked and burns us but maybe it will work this time because bandwagon.
    Because results, actually.

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    I think the real point to be made in this whole argument is:
    How many coaches in the world donít make many mistakes or donít have a weak point? Not many, and the ones that donít will never coach TFC. Unless we become on par with some of the biggest clubs in the world. MLS reffing, travel, and cap certainly doesnít help.

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    I dont think the season is going to be over yet. We still have a lot of the season remaining to play, and I think that if you were to win the remaining of the games like your supposed to, then what would the issue be here? If you are to win the entire season, do you not have to continue winning on a day to day basis over and over again for the rest of say your lives. New York FC, is a crucial and pivotal, match, where you are playing Andrea Pirlo' or his former side, which means, if you want to take on the top dogs, your going to have to win this game. And if you dontw ant to win the remainder of the games, then theres no point, to anything. Thats why you win. Period.

  16. #256
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    HAHAHA

    The season. The thread.

    It's like they forgot to release a schedule and everyone is wondering if it's the last match just played.

    Ridiculous.
    Canada at US Virgin Islands Sunday September 9
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    I think itís fair to acknowledge Vanney has some downfalls. Consistently failing to take advantage of being a man up is a fair criticism. He some other quirks as well which drive me nuts.

    But overall I see him as a decent coach. My thoughts on this season have more to do with roster construction and heavy scheduling than anything iím seeing tactically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Now who has the cognitive bias. Just 5 coaches. The whole world has just 5 coaches, so why look.
    I did try to give Pep Guardiola a call, but his receptionist said he was busy coaching another team and not available to go to TFC. :-)

    OK, that's a joke, but my point is the best coaches in the world are never going to come to MLS.

    You have to measure Vanney against what's actually available.

    So a coach in the English Championship might come, maybe someone from Serie B.

    Can you honestly tell me that they will get a significantly better result than Vanney? By that I mean that they have to win the treble and the CCL multiple years in a row. With the same salary cap. Be honest, do you really believe that? Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I did try to give Pep Guardiola a call, but his receptionist said he was busy coaching another team and not available to go to TFC. :-)

    OK, that's a joke, but my point is the best coaches in the world are never going to come to MLS.

    You have to measure Vanney against what's actually available.

    So a coach in the English Championship might come, maybe someone from Serie B.

    Can you honestly tell me that they will get a significantly better result than Vanney? By that I mean that they have to win the treble and the CCL multiple years in a row. With the same salary cap. Be honest, do you really believe that? Why?
    Didn't Mourinho say he wanted to coach in the US one day? I could see him in L.A. or NY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    Didn't Mourinho say he wanted to coach in the US one day? I could see him in L.A. or NY.
    As a retirement league for DP coaches it means he'll be at least 78.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I did try to give Pep Guardiola a call, but his receptionist said he was busy coaching another team and not available to go to TFC. :-)

    OK, that's a joke, but my point is the best coaches in the world are never going to come to MLS.

    You have to measure Vanney against what's actually available.

    So a coach in the English Championship might come, maybe someone from Serie B.

    Can you honestly tell me that they will get a significantly better result than Vanney? By that I mean that they have to win the treble and the CCL multiple years in a row. With the same salary cap. Be honest, do you really believe that? Why?
    Serie B? The Championship? China regularly attracts top level coaches. The idea that you need to be a top level club to get a top level coach is flat out wrong.

    Tata Martino has an amazing pedigree. Itís possible to acquire top coaching talent in this league if youíre ambitious and rich enough.

    If Vanney were ever to leave/get fired I would *expect* this club to pursue a coach at or above the level of Tata.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Serie B? The Championship? China regularly attracts top level coaches. The idea that you need to be a top level club to get a top level coach is flat out wrong.

    Tata Martino has an amazing pedigree. Itís possible to acquire top coaching talent in this league if youíre ambitious and rich enough.

    If Vanney were ever to leave/get fired I would *expect* this club to pursue a coach at or above the level of Tata.
    Martino doesnít have an amazing pedigree. He has an excellent record in the Argentine league, and thatĎs it. What do you seriously think Martino's options were when he was hired at Atlanta?

    If you want an ex Argentine MNT man, there are lots you can find, they cycle through Liga MX a lot. What's ďamazingĒ is that Barca hired him. He is an excellent coach for Atlanta's player acquisition/development strategy though.

    Re China, not relevant.
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/chines...wettbewerb/CSL
    Last edited by ensco; 08-12-2018 at 01:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Martino doesnít have an amazing pedigree. He has an excellent record in the Argentine league, and thatĎs it. What do you seriously think Martino's options were when he was hired at Atlanta?

    If you want an ex Argentine MNT man, there are lots you can find, they cycle through Liga MX a lot. What's ďamazingĒ is that Barca hired him. He is an excellent coach for Atlanta's player acquisition/development strategy though.

    Re China, not relevant.
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/chines...wettbewerb/CSL
    Wow no idea Oscar was in China. Some serious talent playing in China right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defoe View Post
    Wow no idea Oscar was in China. Some serious talent playing in China right now.
    Crazy that half the top 20 is Brazilian. Money talks louder to some people.

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    If anyone should be fired end of the season then it should be Bez failing to sign CB (He had a year to find one).

    Vanney is good tactical coach which good enough in this league.

    Right now, TFC are right there in the race. No need to panic yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Now who has the cognitive bias. Just 5 coaches. ..
    5 best coaches in the league


    The assumption that lots of people want to coach in MLS is false.

    Which is why when you grow one, you stick with him for at least 5 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Tata Martino has an amazing pedigree. Itís possible to acquire top coaching talent in this league if youíre ambitious and rich enough.
    Martino has a foreign passport. That in itself is not an "amazing pedigree." His coaching abilities are roughly equivalent to Vanney.

    So besides cognitive bias, there is very much the idea that a foreign passport from a footballing nation automatically makes a better coach. An American like Vanney doesn't have a chance. He automatically "can't be good," even though he studied in France.

    You still haven't answered my question, though. Results are the thing that matters the most. Do you seriously believe Martino would have a better record than Vanney? Would he have won the triple, the CCL, and won the triple again this year? If yes, why do you believe that?
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 08-12-2018 at 11:51 AM.

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    I know mathematically we still have a chance but for me this season is done. All I wants is to win the voyageurs cup and beat the shitpact twice, then start planning for next year.

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    20% chance of making the post season.

    http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/MLS.html

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    Two games in hand on Montreal and play them twice.

 

 

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