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Thread: The tunnel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Believe me, a straight-up full-width staircase at the north end would be a huge help. Also it would separate the pedestrian flows going to the train on the existing west-bound platform, providing even more capacity. However if the new/extended north-side exit still has those much smaller staircases branching off from the tunnel at right angles, then it wouldn't really help.

    Of course another tunnel or bridge is the real solution. BTW Metrolinx doesn't just run GO Transit. Their job is the "coordination and integration of all modes of transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area" which includes pedestrians, as well as access to the TTC lines in Liberty Village (63 Ossington & King streetcar). Not saying they should pay for a new tunnel or bridge by themselves. I also see there may be some value to prioritizing access for GO Train passengers. But it would only be fulfilling part of Metrolinx's mandate.
    Addressing your two points here, look at the image below:

    1. The plan does not have property laid out to do a straight up full-width staircase (property in red). Obviously the stairs are planned to be east-west. However the width does appear to be similar to the southern entrance, rather than the narrower platform size that currently is in use.
    2. Also note that to the west there is a plan for a second tunnel (in orange). This includes a second "plaza" open space leading to the new tunnel just as it currently exists in the central location.
    3. The only uncertainty is the eastern third tunnel, which is contemplated to connnect directly to the streetcar loop / future LRT extension directly.

    Nowhere else in the GTA is Metrolinx engaged in strictly pedestrian access. Any improvements external to the core transit (Rapid Transit or Regional Express Rail) mandate are tangential. But obviously it is being considered as part of the Exhibition Station upgrade.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    The problem really is the bottleneck going through the tunnel due to the sheer volume. That tunnel was never designed to handle the crowds that go through there after a match.

    When was that tunnel built? Really very little foresight in terms of understanding the peak capacity of it. I agree with others, something bad will eventually happen in there.
    Completely agree. I can't even remember the last time I used the tunnel after a game.
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    the citys regard for our safety is appalling

    they could at least man the doors with an off duty and have the queue build up more properly for better flow of traffic

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    We have to remember this is a GO tunnel. It isn't supposed to be used as an entrance way into the ex. It wasn't designed that way.
    Is GO going to pay for a new tunnel for people that aren't their customers? For use only maybe 100 times a year for concerts/TFC/Argos, for maybe an hour combined when tunnel traffic is at its peak. Every other day it serves its purpose.
    BMO is a city property, on city land. So they'd have to coordinate something and figure out who pays. Its in the millions.
    The right play for the city would be to extend atlantic or jeffersson ave right into the cne grounds, problem is the streets dont really line up.
    Politically though, they could say it is to relieve some congestion that happens on strachan.
    Liberty village traffic is a nightmare, with only more condos being built. I think an investment by the city into bringing more gameday crowds into the area will be met with some backlash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glaze View Post
    We have to remember this is a GO tunnel. It isn't supposed to be used as an entrance way into the ex. It wasn't designed that way.
    Is GO going to pay for a new tunnel for people that aren't their customers? For use only maybe 100 times a year for concerts/TFC/Argos, for maybe an hour combined when tunnel traffic is at its peak. Every other day it serves its purpose.
    BMO is a city property, on city land. So they'd have to coordinate something and figure out who pays. Its in the millions.
    The right play for the city would be to extend atlantic or jeffersson ave right into the cne grounds, problem is the streets dont really line up.
    Politically though, they could say it is to relieve some congestion that happens on strachan.
    Liberty village traffic is a nightmare, with only more condos being built. I think an investment by the city into bringing more gameday crowds into the area will be met with some backlash.
    If something were to happen in the tunnel (knock on wood) couldn't GO be liable?
    Toronto 'til I die - but I think they're trying to kill me.

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    Alternate route to get around to the westbound platform, walking up Dufferin. 25min walk Google tells me. I might just start doing this...


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    If I am parked north of the tracks I always use Dufferin bridge even though it is walking a little distance away then back to my car. I don't find it is that bad at all and avoids the frustration of the tunnel and I get to my car faster depending on where I park I think than if I waited in the bottleneck. I refuse to leave a game early ever to avoid things like this as well. And walking is good for us....added bonus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fergiejr View Post
    Alternate route to get around to the westbound platform, walking up Dufferin. 25min walk Google tells me. I might just start doing this...
    It is way quicker than 25 minutes, cutting through parking lots and what not.
    Toronto 'til I die - but I think they're trying to kill me.

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    Why stop there?


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    Just picturing the chaos of a bunch of drunks zip lining across the tracks makes me laugh. Haha

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    What an incredible thread!

    1. After +10years I’ve discovered a problem I never knew I had lol
    2. I can’t believe the amount of engineers here lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red4ever View Post
    Why stop there?

    LMAO imagine with smoke bombs!

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    Anyone super passionate / informed about this?

    There's a reporter doing a story today. I will talk with him, but if someone in the city would rather do it, I can pass that along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post
    1) fair enough

    2) I get it, but in 10 years there have been 0 incidents of note. Not saying something should happen before steps are taken to change it, but it seems to me that the real problem is the bottleneck of people outside the tunnel waiting to get in rather than the tunnel itself....it gets pretty orderly once inside and through. I actually had an incident walking out of BMO a few years back post game where I gashed my leg exiting the stadium and ended up getting 8 stitches that night. Needed to get to a hospital quick and had parked at the lot just north of tunnel (luckily my wife was with me to drive). Had that tunnel not been open, I might have been in trouble. Had no problem with people making space for me to get through as quick as possible. Now, that is a rare situation, but at least the option to pass through was there.
    I've noticed that the overcrowding in the tunnel has got significantly worse since the stadium has been expanded. I used to be able to get through the tunnel with relative ease a few years ago. But since they added the expansion on the east stand the tunnel is now much more crowded. If the stadium had its current capacity form year zero there may well have been a major incident already.

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    Both my buddy and I (independently) felt that the pushing/jostling at the doors has increased quite dramatically over the past few games...I'm ok as I am over 6' and can handle myself, but I feel for other women and kids who just aren't able to hold their ground as well...anyone who believes that there isn't an imminent bad scene in this tunnel is fooling themselves...the situation is particularly exacerbated when there are "salmon" swimming upstream and the bottleneck at the doors is compounded...

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    I dunno.....I've never felt in any danger and I use the tunnel for every game, but I can understand that some do not feel this way.....I guess all I can say is that for people that think its a dangerous situation, then just don't use it anymore. Not trying to be an ass, but I just can't see something being done about it in the near future......

    Personally, I see the crowd in front of the tunnel as no different in numbers or "probability for danger" as the mob of people waiting to pass security by Gate 1 before a game....all it will take is for 1 yahoo to do something stupid there and its a similar situation imo.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post

    Personally, I see the crowd in front of the tunnel as no different in numbers or "probability for danger" as the mob of people waiting to pass security by Gate 1 before a game....all it will take is for 1 yahoo to do something stupid there and its a similar situation imo.....
    I think it is different. Panic in a space without walls and fences, however crowded, is not nearly so dangerous.

    But with walls or fences and crowds, people can get trampled/suffocated in enclosed spaces.

    People think of Hillsborough and, because terraces and herding practices are a thing of the past, that can't happen anymore. So they think the danger is dealt with. But the great tragedy when I was a kid was at Ibrox, and that can happen again, and that GO tunnel has the potential, however small, to have something occur like that someday.

    It's been a while, so for those who don’t know...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Ibrox_disaster

    This is a great thread, and hopefully can somehow be a catalyst for change.If nothing else, police need to be stationed at the tunnel doors, regulating the flow in there.
    Last edited by ensco; 04-04-2018 at 11:31 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    We seem to be having tunnel problems all around at BMO

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    Chatted with Global TV. Tried to make a lot of the points that you all raised in here and stress the concern without getting too doom and gloom.

    Hopefully some better planning comes from it.

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    Still safer than the players tunnel at bmo

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    I walked a huge detour via Dufferin after the RSL game to avoid the tunnel. Last night, I took the streetcar to avoid the tunnel, rather than walking through & taking the much shorter trip with the 63 bus. Note also that Liberty Village folks are pretty pissed about bad planning, poor transit and lack of many different amenities as it is, in an area that has grown to a huge population. When you get off the 511/509 streetcar to get to BMO, "walkway to Liberty Village" is actually part of the station announcement. You can bet Liberty Village folks would be rightfully pissed if access via the tunnel were restricted.

    Another thing I noticed: the sidewalk across the Dufferin St. bridge is actually much smaller than the tunnel at the Ex station, especially due to the "temporary" bridge put in place many years ago on Dufferin. Part of the problem is the greater jam of people arriving at the tunnel (rather than smaller amounts of people, more evenly spaced out, arriving at the Dufferin bridge). But my main point: it's really the narrow staircases & doors at the north end of the tunnel that are the problem; not the tunnel itself.

    Easy fix for after the games: talk to some experts who are familiar with pedestrian access and flows (yes they exist). Figure out how many doors on the southside of the tunnel equal the capacity of the staircases on the north side. Only leave that many doors open as entrances to the tunnel on the south side after the games. (Maybe reserve 1 additional door on the south side, manned by cops & GO security, only for exit from the tunnel & for handicapped access.) And of course have security around non-stop to open all doors on the south if there's an emergency & everybody needs to get out.

    The way congestion works: more people will fit through the tunnel if you never let it get jammed in the first place. Instead of allowing dangerous crowds to develop inside there, let people stack up in the open area south of the entrances, where they're even covered from the rain, and it's all open if there's ever an emergency. Plus the visible crowd will convince more people to take Strachan or Dufferin, which is also good.

    The real issue: nuts that in the biggest city in Canada, the whole thing including the existing construction on the north side, possible additional tunnels or bridges, endlessly-delayed transit construction, and everything else, needs to be so complicated and incredibly slow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    I walked a huge detour via Dufferin after the RSL game to avoid the tunnel. Last night, I took the streetcar to avoid the tunnel, rather than walking through & taking the much shorter trip with the 63 bus. Note also that Liberty Village folks are pretty pissed about bad planning, poor transit and lack of many different amenities as it is, in an area that has grown to a huge population. When you get off the 511/509 streetcar to get to BMO, "walkway to Liberty Village" is actually part of the station announcement. You can bet Liberty Village folks would be rightfully pissed if access via the tunnel were restricted.

    Another thing I noticed: the sidewalk across the Dufferin St. bridge is actually much smaller than the tunnel at the Ex station, especially due to the "temporary" bridge put in place many years ago on Dufferin. Part of the problem is the greater jam of people arriving at the tunnel (rather than smaller amounts of people, more evenly spaced out, arriving at the Dufferin bridge). But my main point: it's really the narrow staircases & doors at the north end of the tunnel that are the problem; not the tunnel itself.

    Easy fix for after the games: talk to some experts who are familiar with pedestrian access and flows (yes they exist). Figure out how many doors on the southside of the tunnel equal the capacity of the staircases on the north side. Only leave that many doors open as entrances to the tunnel on the south side after the games. (Maybe reserve 1 additional door on the south side, manned by cops & GO security, only for exit from the tunnel & for handicapped access.) And of course have security around non-stop to open all doors on the south if there's an emergency & everybody needs to get out.

    The way congestion works: more people will fit through the tunnel if you never let it get jammed in the first place. Instead of allowing dangerous crowds to develop inside there, let people stack up in the open area south of the entrances, where they're even covered from the rain, and it's all open if there's ever an emergency. Plus the visible crowd will convince more people to take Strachan or Dufferin, which is also good.

    The real issue: nuts that in the biggest city in Canada, the whole thing including the existing construction on the north side, possible additional tunnels or bridges, endlessly-delayed transit construction, and everything else, needs to be so complicated and incredibly slow.
    agreed, all we need is a few arrows and and qeues.

    its like car traffic, you can increase flow volume while decreasing speed with roundabouts

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I think it is different. Panic in a space without walls and fences, however crowded, is not nearly so dangerous.

    But with walls or fences and crowds, people can get trampled/suffocated in enclosed spaces.

    People think of Hillsborough and, because terraces and herding practices are a thing of the past, that can't happen anymore. So they think the danger is dealt with. But the great tragedy when I was a kid was at Ibrox, and that can happen again, and that GO tunnel has the potential, however small, to have something occur like that someday.

    It's been a while, so for those who don’t know...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Ibrox_disaster

    This is a great thread, and hopefully can somehow be a catalyst for change.If nothing else, police need to be stationed at the tunnel doors, regulating the flow in there.
    oops....I mean about the crowd outside the tunnel and not the tunnel itself...outside of it is where i think any potential for trouble would be.....once inside the tunnel I find things move quite orderly (ie. no pushing/jostling)....but as always, just my opinion....
    Last edited by TFC Tifoso; 04-04-2018 at 12:53 PM.

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    Get Mr. SmartTrack to walk through it after a match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Another thing I noticed: the sidewalk across the Dufferin St. bridge is actually much smaller than the tunnel at the Ex station, especially due to the "temporary" bridge put in place many years ago on Dufferin.
    Speaking of - when that thing was announced my jaw hit the floor. You mean the city is going to go through the trouble of demoing a bridge, closing the railway and gardiner as required, and building a new one, but that new one is only temporary? If you're gonna spend the money, then build the permanent one since this one took months to get done anyways.

    Slightly related: Is the Dowling bridge ever coming back or is it just that pedestrian one going forward?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glaze View Post
    We have to remember this is a GO tunnel. It isn't supposed to be used as an entrance way into the ex. It wasn't designed that way.
    Is GO going to pay for a new tunnel for people that aren't their customers? For use only maybe 100 times a year for concerts/TFC/Argos, for maybe an hour combined when tunnel traffic is at its peak. Every other day it serves its purpose.
    BMO is a city property, on city land. So they'd have to coordinate something and figure out who pays. Its in the millions.
    The right play for the city would be to extend atlantic or jeffersson ave right into the cne grounds, problem is the streets dont really line up.
    Politically though, they could say it is to relieve some congestion that happens on strachan.
    Liberty village traffic is a nightmare, with only more condos being built. I think an investment by the city into bringing more gameday crowds into the area will be met with some backlash.
    I agree, but I am using the tunnel for GO train purposes to and from matches. Now and then to access Atlantic Avenue. So in essence it is a public thoroughfare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C.Ronaldo View Post
    agreed, all we need is a few arrows and and qeues.

    its like car traffic, you can increase flow volume while decreasing speed with roundabouts


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    I don’t think anyone is asking GO Transit to fix this.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Article from yesterday. Metrolinx says 2020-2023.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4126498/e...mes-bmo-field/

 

 

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