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Thread: The tunnel

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    It is just a matter of time ----Set off a pair of fire crackers in the tunnel==== watch the stampede

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    I'd rather keep our labour laws intact than wish for the world cup to fix our city. Honestly, fuck the world cup.

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    I'm more curious what's going to happen in Montreal. How is that stadium going to host the world cup?
    The GO tunnel needs to be addressed. Just politically and financially it's complex enough that it will take years.
    It's like when Al Bundy tried to build a dog house. It isn't as simple as just building a bridge over the tracks when it involves the city,

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    This is my major pet peeve when attending games. Usually my wife and I wait a minimum 2 trains before attempting the tunnel. It is a nightmare and it is only a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt. You would figure GO Transits lawyers and insurance providers would push some sort of relief for the tunnel. It will only be a matter of time before someone gets hurt and launches a lawsuit at GO.

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    The stadium and infrastructure can easily handle World Cup crowds.
    Its the stadium condition and the God awful pitch thats a huge concern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside16 View Post
    This is my major pet peeve when attending games. Usually my wife and I wait a minimum 2 trains before attempting the tunnel. It is a nightmare and it is only a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt. You would figure GO Transits lawyers and insurance providers would push some sort of relief for the tunnel. It will only be a matter of time before someone gets hurt and launches a lawsuit at GO.
    My guess is that if the safety concern becomes bad enough for an immediate response, the short term solution will end up being the temporary (game-end-only) closure of the exit from the westbound platform to Atlantic. This will force pedestrians to use Dufferin as the way to exit the Exhibition grounds to access Liberty Village.

    Remember, the tunnel was built first and foremost to serve train passengers, it's not intended as a pedestrian right-of-way to connect neighborhoods. (Notwithstanding that it definitely functions that way)

    There are plans to provide increased access across the tracks. Unfortunately I can't find a public source for what is planned on the Metrolinx website, but if someone wants to go on Merx there's apparently an RFQ for Lakeshore West that might show what Metrolinx has coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gringo Starr View Post
    A simple modification of the doors would improve things a lot. Right now they have doors with a central pillar so even if the doors are open you have a stupid post obstructing the way, if they switched the doors to ones without the centre post it would speed passage up some.
    exactly what i thought. It would improve it drastically.

    But its still an issue for the mobility challenged. Those stairs are dangerous with that volume of ppl. There will be a stampede one day. I've taken to enjoying the long walk around nowadays

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    My guess is that if the safety concern becomes bad enough for an immediate response, the short term solution will end up being the temporary (game-end-only) closure of the exit from the westbound platform to Atlantic. This will force pedestrians to use Dufferin as the way to exit the Exhibition grounds to access Liberty Village.

    Remember, the tunnel was built first and foremost to serve train passengers, it's not intended as a pedestrian right-of-way to connect neighborhoods. (Notwithstanding that it definitely functions that way)

    There are plans to provide increased access across the tracks. Unfortunately I can't find a public source for what is planned on the Metrolinx website, but if someone wants to go on Merx there's apparently an RFQ for Lakeshore West that might show what Metrolinx has coming.
    Sad to say, but I think it's time to do this.

    I would have been one of the people bitching and moaning at this time last year, (and also, the tunnel walks can be so fun when we win) but people should and will get over it.

    Pre game is fine. Post game, close the gate.

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    We should get a campaign going like we did back in the day when we wanted grass at BMO - Get supporters and maybe even general fans to write in to their councillor to push for this to happen.

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    Bring back the old wooden pedestrian bridge that used to be there before the tunnel? But seriously, have taken to walking around and over on Dufferin...actually get to car/Joes faster than through the tunnel.

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    Check this out. It's a history of the Go Transit lakeshore line. It shows the old EX station and how we used to get there. Down the stairs at Dufferin bridge.

    https://transit.toronto.on.ca/regional/2101.shtml

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    Those stairs still exist, they're on the west side of Dufferin (both north and south)... You can see the south ones clearly from the Gardiner but the northern ones are mostly overgrown.

    Assuming this image isn't flipped, the buildings in the image are long gone. That's approximately where the Gardiner is now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    My guess is that if the safety concern becomes bad enough for an immediate response, the short term solution will end up being the temporary (game-end-only) closure of the exit from the westbound platform to Atlantic. This will force pedestrians to use Dufferin as the way to exit the Exhibition grounds to access Liberty Village.

    Remember, the tunnel was built first and foremost to serve train passengers, it's not intended as a pedestrian right-of-way to connect neighborhoods. (Notwithstanding that it definitely functions that way)

    There are plans to provide increased access across the tracks. Unfortunately I can't find a public source for what is planned on the Metrolinx website, but if someone wants to go on Merx there's apparently an RFQ for Lakeshore West that might show what Metrolinx has coming.
    This plan would be so bungled that it would probably end up being more dangerous. People would still try to cross through the tunnel, and then have to attempt to turn back and create a huge logjam.

    The temporary solution is simple - open up the tunnel extension that they have already built and have blocked with hoarding.

    They made an announcement a month ago about an expansion of Exhibition station, which includes a second access across the tracks, but it has no timeline or funding.

    See link: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/...ile-112265.pdf



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    Quote Originally Posted by wopchop View Post
    This plan would be so bungled that it would probably end up being more dangerous. People would still try to cross through the tunnel, and then have to attempt to turn back and create a huge logjam.

    The temporary solution is simple - open up the tunnel extension that they have already built and have blocked with hoarding.

    They made an announcement a month ago about an expansion of Exhibition station, which includes a second access across the tracks, but it has no timeline or funding.

    See link: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/...ile-112265.pdf

    Where is the tunnel expansion? I have seen the hoarding blocking off sections of the platform, which does limit crowd movement. But I've not seen anything in the tunnel itself. It doesn't look to be any wider to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Where is the tunnel expansion? I have seen the hoarding blocking off sections of the platform, which does limit crowd movement. But I've not seen anything in the tunnel itself. It doesn't look to be any wider to me.
    I probably should have said extension instead of expansion. It is not any wider, but it is now longer in preparation for a future extra track. When you are going North through the tunnel, at the end of the hall (where it splits left and right) they extended the tunnel further north towards Liberty Village. That tunnel extension is currently blocked with wood hoarding and could be used now to improve crowding.
    Last edited by wopchop; 03-26-2018 at 12:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wopchop View Post
    I probably should have said extension instead of expansion. It is not any wider, but it is not longer in preparation for a future extra track. When you are going North through the tunnel, at the end of the hall (where it splits left and right) they extended the tunnel further north towards Liberty Village. That tunnel extension is currently blocked with wood hoarding and could be used now to improve crowding.
    No way! I didn't notice that. Thanks.

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    Maybe they should have both trains come in on the same platform after games. I've seen it happen twice before games.

    I don't know how much that would alleviate congestion but maybe enough - temporarily.

    I do know that a few people will get on the wrong train occasionally.
    Toronto 'til I die - but I think they're trying to kill me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eustacchio View Post
    Maybe they should have both trains come in on the same platform after games. I've seen it happen twice before games.

    I don't know how much that would alleviate congestion but maybe enough - temporarily.

    I do know that a few people will get on the wrong train occasionally.
    The problem really is the bottleneck going through the tunnel due to the sheer volume. That tunnel was never designed to handle the crowds that go through there after a match.

    When was that tunnel built? Really very little foresight in terms of understanding the peak capacity of it. I agree with others, something bad will eventually happen in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wopchop View Post
    This plan would be so bungled that it would probably end up being more dangerous. People would still try to cross through the tunnel, and then have to attempt to turn back and create a huge logjam.

    The temporary solution is simple - open up the tunnel extension that they have already built and have blocked with hoarding.
    The extension does not address capacity in the tunnel itself though. Unless the number of stairs up to platform, or the platform itself, are the constriction, opening the extension does nothing to address the throughput.

    If I were in charge of the solution blocking off Atlantic, I'd do it at the entrance to the station, preventing everyone except actual riders for GO LSW westbound from entering the tunnel. There would also be counterflow blocks added to stop anyone during this time period from trying to cross southwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    If I were in charge of the solution blocking off Atlantic, I'd do it at the entrance to the station, preventing everyone except actual riders for GO LSW westbound from entering the tunnel.


    Good quick band-aid. A few transit employees on megaphones diverting everyone else to Strachan or Dufferin during peak times would help.

    Are there any other instances where the tunnel experiences overcrowding? Argos? Or just the 20+ TFC games?

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    The extension does not address capacity in the tunnel itself though. Unless the number of stairs up to platform, or the platform itself, are the constriction, opening the extension does nothing to address the throughput.
    It depends how the new stairs on the north side of the tunnel extension are configured. If they go straight up, at the full width of the tunnel, similar to how the stairs are on the south side, it would be a huge help. Most of the congestion now in the tunnel comes from the of majority people squeezing over to the much smaller staircase on the left side -- current north end of the tunnel -- as that's also the shortest path to the Atlantic Ave/Liberty Village exit.

    I & a few others usually walk to the right side staircase at that end, to bypass the worst congestion, and double-back along the platform. Not much faster, but it does help with the throughput overall. Also sometimes the train platform is so full, that walking along there adds more problems. There used to be a separate exit off the platform towards the north, near the north-east staircase, but that was closed when the construction started, making a bad situation worse. (Most of the time I actually bike along Strachan or Dufferin for TFC games, therefore avoiding all the problems.)

    Believe me, a straight-up full-width staircase at the north end would be a huge help. Also it would separate the pedestrian flows going to the train on the existing west-bound platform, providing even more capacity. However if the new/extended north-side exit still has those much smaller staircases branching off from the tunnel at right angles, then it wouldn't really help.

    Of course another tunnel or bridge is the real solution. BTW Metrolinx doesn't just run GO Transit. Their job is the "coordination and integration of all modes of transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area" which includes pedestrians, as well as access to the TTC lines in Liberty Village (63 Ossington & King streetcar). Not saying they should pay for a new tunnel or bridge by themselves. I also see there may be some value to prioritizing access for GO Train passengers. But it would only be fulfilling part of Metrolinx's mandate.
    Last edited by Auzzy; 03-26-2018 at 02:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    The extension does not address capacity in the tunnel itself though. Unless the number of stairs up to platform, or the platform itself, are the constriction, opening the extension does nothing to address the throughput.
    Of course not. But it separates the people heading to the Westbound GO platforms and to Atlantic Avenue. The current log jamb at the staircase on the west side is certainly a factor (as well as the tunnel width) in what is backing everyone up. By allowing people heading to Liberty Village to continue North, instead of stopping and squeezing up that one staircase with GO Train passengers, it would create better flow.

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    closing the tunnel post post game wouldn't be a solution imo, for 2 reasons....
    1) people who actually need to access the tunnel to get to the train
    2) the very large lot just north of the tunnel where lots of people at the game park....it would be very unreasonable to ask them to detour all around Dufferin then through Liberty Village when the lot is less than 50 steps from the exit of the tunnel

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post
    closing the tunnel post post game wouldn't be a solution imo, for 2 reasons....
    1) people who actually need to access the tunnel to get to the train
    2) the very large lot just north of the tunnel where lots of people at the game park....it would be very unreasonable to ask them to detour all around Dufferin then through Liberty Village when the lot is less than 50 steps from the exit of the tunnel
    1) The tunnel wouldn't be closed, access to Atlantic Ave would be closed. The tunnel would only serve a purpose for those catching a westbound train.

    2) This whole thing is for safety. It's reasonable to ask anyone to do anything if there is a legit fear for the safety of the current situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red4ever View Post
    1) The tunnel wouldn't be closed, access to Atlantic Ave would be closed. The tunnel would only serve a purpose for those catching a westbound train.

    2) This whole thing is for safety. It's reasonable to ask anyone to do anything if there is a legit fear for the safety of the current situation.
    1) fair enough

    2) I get it, but in 10 years there have been 0 incidents of note. Not saying something should happen before steps are taken to change it, but it seems to me that the real problem is the bottleneck of people outside the tunnel waiting to get in rather than the tunnel itself....it gets pretty orderly once inside and through. I actually had an incident walking out of BMO a few years back post game where I gashed my leg exiting the stadium and ended up getting 8 stitches that night. Needed to get to a hospital quick and had parked at the lot just north of tunnel (luckily my wife was with me to drive). Had that tunnel not been open, I might have been in trouble. Had no problem with people making space for me to get through as quick as possible. Now, that is a rare situation, but at least the option to pass through was there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red4ever View Post
    1) The tunnel wouldn't be closed, access to Atlantic Ave would be closed. The tunnel would only serve a purpose for those catching a westbound train.

    2) This whole thing is for safety. It's reasonable to ask anyone to do anything if there is a legit fear for the safety of the current situation.
    There are people who live in condos in Liberty Village. They need to be able to easily catch trains to Toronto. That's what the access to Atlantic Avenue is for, not for people at Exhibition Place to have easy access to bars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post

    2) I get it, but in 10 years there have been 0 incidents of note. Not saying something should happen before steps are taken to change it,
    The disaster at Hillsborough should let everyone know that you need to prevent excess crowding. Just because it isn't at the stadium proper does not make any difference. Anything causing panic and people will be crushed. There could easily be deaths. Anyone who has seriously studied that would realize this. You are counting on people to be orderly all the time but many things can cause a crowd to panic.

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    I have often thought of grabbing the train Eastbound, switching at Union to come back Westbound. Might be faster, depending on when the trains arrive.

    In the summer months we hang out a bit after the game and either wait for the players or talk to other supporters. Sometimes we get ice cream. Then head over to the train. Doesn't work too well for mid-week games though - as getting home to sleep is of utmost importance.

    Sometimes I think it would be quicker to walk around on Dufferin. Google maps tells me it's a 20 min walk. Works well if you're going back to Joe's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The disaster at Hillsborough should let everyone know that you need to prevent excess crowding. Just because it isn't at the stadium proper does not make any difference. Anything causing panic and people will be crushed. There could easily be deaths. Anyone who has seriously studied that would realize this. You are counting on people to be orderly all the time but many things can cause a crowd to panic.
    I get that totally...Heysel is another good example as well...I even made the point in my post. But I can't see the factor that triggered those situations happening at the Go tunnel. Of course, any panic situation could definitely trigger "something", but then extrapolate that to any other similar situation (ie. waiting to get into stadium for concert, lineup for security for games at ACC, even walking the concourse at BMO during halftime, etc.), and what do you do then??

    I'd rather see something done to ease the bottleneck of people, rather than remove access totally....to me that is the real solution.

 

 

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