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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I think the odds of additional punishment, for both teams, is very high. More for the Red Bulls than us, but still, likely for us too.

    If you think there is a constituency out there that feels sorry for us here over this, think again.

    Go to big soccer, or listen to things like the MLS Extra Time podcast, you will discover that the reaction of a lot of neutrals to this is either that (i) both teams were jackasses, and it is amusing, or (ii) TFC had it coming to them, and good for the Red Bulls, someone finally took on these whining assholes.

    We having a league wide rep for diving and whining, mostly thanks to Gio (we love him, but we know it's true) and now everyone hates Bradley and Altidore, too. The clips that everyone sees of this is the Jozy flop, of Gio losing his shit, of Bradley getting carded for whining... not the 2-3 years of getting chopped that led to all that.

    Without absolutely compelling video evidence, that can be released, that Altidore was truly jumped, and that his retaliation was reasonable, the league will not rescind Altidore's red card.

    I think it's likely that they add to the punishment by adding regular season suspensions or something. Both Marsch and Vanney may get suspensions to send a message about inability to control their teams. Marsch's should be longer, based on what we know.
    The people who are happy we are getting comeuppance are just as biased as our drunkest, most ardent supporter. Pundits think we deserved it? Whooooooooooooooo cares?

    We are actually allowed to whine. We are allowed to dive. We got punished accordingly for both. But anyone who implies we deserved to get jumped in the tunnel for whining or diving have lost the plot. Moreover, the league knows the officiating was poor if not bordering on incompetent. They know it's entirely their fault better measures aren't in place to prevent such incidents from happening and blaming Marsh and Vanney too harshly would essentially be passing the buck. They are also in a spot that it has to be a next year penalty as the punishments are unequal give both teams' playoff status.

    This doesn't look good on the league either. But ultimately, they will want the appearance they made the correct call originally. (On an evening where they got little right)

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunkers View Post
    These rules on appeal are pretty crazy, especially this part

    If an appeal is deemed frivolous by the Ruling Body that reviewed the case, then the bond will be forfeited and the Club will further lose the right to appeal any other decisions in that League Season and the next one. Further, the send-off punishment of the player or coach/staff member will be doubled (i.e., an automatic suspension of two (2) games).
    https://www.mlssoccer.com/league/off...view-procedure

    I really don't see this getting overturned but could you imagine if it got doubled!! Crazy MLS.
    "Frivolous" is the key word here. There's no way this would be viewed as frivolous.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I think the odds of additional punishment, for both teams, is very high. More for the Red Bulls than us, but still, likely for us too.

    If you think there is a constituency out there that feels sorry for us here over this, think again.

    Go to big soccer, or listen to things like the MLS Extra Time podcast, you will discover that the reaction of a lot of neutrals to this is either that (i) both teams were jackasses, and it is amusing, or (ii) TFC had it coming to them, and good for the Red Bulls, someone finally took on these whining assholes.

    We having a league wide rep for diving and whining, mostly thanks to Gio (we love him, but we know it's true) and now everyone hates Bradley and Altidore, too. The clips that everyone sees of this is the Jozy flop, of Gio losing his shit, of Bradley getting carded for whining... not the 2-3 years of getting chopped that led to all that.

    Without absolutely compelling video evidence, that can be released, that Altidore was truly jumped, and that his retaliation was reasonable, the league will not rescind Altidore's red card.

    I think it's likely that they add to the punishment by adding regular season suspensions or something. Both Marsch and Vanney may get suspensions to send a message about inability to control their teams. Marsch's should be longer, based on what we know.
    I can't see anything additional given to Jozy unless the video evidence is damning, in which case we'd be pretty stupid to pursue this. But I agree. There probably will, and likely should be further sanctions against the players, coaches and the teams. MLS needs to deal with this strongly. I can't think of many cases of this happening and it never should.

  4. #94
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    Two days so far since the appeal was filed. Should be enough time to decide whether or not a red card was warranted. They're probably taking their time to determine appropriate additional disciplinary measures

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax TFC View Post
    Two days so far since the appeal was filed. Should be enough time to decide whether or not a red card was warranted. They're probably taking their time to determine appropriate additional disciplinary measures
    Has MLS even gone so far as to indicate they are reviewing it?

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    Curious that MLS FO have been completely silent on this. Nary a peep. It's almost like they're hoping it will go away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmonyoureds View Post
    Has MLS even gone so far as to indicate they are reviewing it?
    I believe Kurt Larson reported that it will be reviewed by an independent panel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by denime View Post
    ESPN's match report indicates they were straight reds, not second cautions.

    That means now it's up to the Independent Review Panel, consisting of one representative each from the U.S. Soccer Federation, Canadian Soccer Association and Professional Referee Organization to rescind his red card.
    Quote Originally Posted by JonO View Post
    I believe Kurt Larson reported that it will be reviewed by an independent panel.

    ESPN few day ago
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonO View Post
    I believe Kurt Larson reported that it will be reviewed by an independent panel.
    It's not MLS that reviews this case. It's a panel of one representative each of US Soccer, the CSA, and PRO (a retired ref). In order to rescind the card, unanimity is required. So if the PRO representative sticks by the refs, the red card stands. IMO the evidence must be compelling for TFC to even try an appeal.

    After the decision, MLS could decide to further sanction one or both clubs. That is actually a separate thing from whether Jozy deserves a red card.

  10. #100
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    I'm not concern with Altidore's red as much Vazquez getting 3 games suspension for bumping the ref after that free kick.

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    I have watched the whole game again, and replayed the questionable incidents, again and again. My first reaction was that the referee wasn’t quite as bad as I thought, but that isn’t quite right. In fact it is actually worse, in a way. He calls numerous picayune fouls early on ( some of which he appears to get wrong ie Mavinga in the 14 Th (?) minute ) but then lets some serious fouls go right after, always in favour of the Red Bulls. It became bizarre - for example when Jody was submarined by the guy at the top of the box. It might have been a slip, and therefore not a yellow, but taking someone out at the knees is clearly a foul - then thirty seconds later he is giving a foul for the slightest contact. Very odd, and easy to understand the players frustration and the feelings we had in the stands at the time, particularly when all the little calls that were incorrect were factored in, like the throw ins early on that went the wrong way, the corner on Gio’s shot that was given as a goal kick, etc.

    and for me, it was a foul on Giovinco: a clear push. I cannot understand the commentators who say it was not a foul, it is blatant and obvious. And both of our goals were good. Both pretty clear, IMHO.

    But. But. All our team had to do on the night was keep it’s head. And it didn’t. Bradley didn’t. Sebastian didn’t. And Jody apparently didn’t. This reflects badly on the club and the coaching staff. It’s not like we havent seen it coming, this behaviour has happened before. There needs to be some internal discussion about discipline and Vanney needs to lay down the law. And our best players have to show discipline and class. There were numerous calls that should have gone our way and did not. Could our reputation be hurting us?

  12. #102
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    Two days so far since the appeal was filed. Should be enough time to decide whether or not a red card was warranted. They're probably taking their time to determine appropriate additional disciplinary measures
    Curious that MLS FO have been completely silent on this. Nary a peep. It's almost like they're hoping it will go away.
    They have time. We're overly anxious. You're right, it's been 2 days... not 20... relax. It doesn't concern "us". We have jobs, families, etc. Walk away, they will decide when they do. We dont need to know yesterday, so to speak.

    If it's November 19th and we still dont know... maybe someone should ask what's up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I have watched the whole game again, and replayed the questionable incidents, again and again. My first reaction was that the referee wasn’t quite as bad as I thought, but that isn’t quite right. In fact it is actually worse, in a way. He calls numerous picayune fouls early on ( some of which he appears to get wrong ie Mavinga in the 14 Th (?) minute ) but then lets some serious fouls go right after, always in favour of the Red Bulls. It became bizarre - for example when Jody was submarined by the guy at the top of the box. It might have been a slip, and therefore not a yellow, but taking someone out at the knees is clearly a foul - then thirty seconds later he is giving a foul for the slightest contact. Very odd, and easy to understand the players frustration and the feelings we had in the stands at the time, particularly when all the little calls that were incorrect were factored in, like the throw ins early on that went the wrong way, the corner on Gio’s shot that was given as a goal kick, etc.

    and for me, it was a foul on Giovinco: a clear push. I cannot understand the commentators who say it was not a foul, it is blatant and obvious. And both of our goals were good. Both pretty clear, IMHO.

    But. But. All our team had to do on the night was keep it’s head. And it didn’t. Bradley didn’t. Sebastian didn’t. And Jody apparently didn’t. This reflects badly on the club and the coaching staff. It’s not like we havent seen it coming, this behaviour has happened before. There needs to be some internal discussion about discipline and Vanney needs to lay down the law. And our best players have to show discipline and class. There were numerous calls that should have gone our way and did not. Could our reputation be hurting us?
    That foul on Jozy was really bad. The ball rolled right on by, not even remotely touched. Should have been a free kick for Giovinco at the top of the box which might as well be a penalty when he takes it.

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    After a couple days of reading and pondering there is a couple of things that stick out to me. The first is Kljestan's statement of "I was pushed into a wall. I have a clear conscience!" To me I take the first part at face value, I don't doubt that he was pushed into a wall in that mass chaos. The latter half of that statement intrigues me though. The more I think about it the more I think it is a tongue in cheek reference rather than a declaration of innocence. I take it as whatever he did prior to being pushed into the wall he feels no remorse for. Which to me at least, there must be some pretty damning video evidence. I wondering if we will ever see the security footage. Personally I think it will only get "leaked" if the appeal does not go in our favour. I am curious to see for myself whatever occurred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by denime View Post
    I'm not concern with Altidore's red as much Vazquez getting 3 games suspension for bumping the ref after that free kick.
    I wouldn't worry much about that.....happened right in front of me in 127, and didn't look like Vasquez made contact at all.
    He got in his face alright, and they were about a hair's width apart, but the ref never even told him to back off.....it's like he knew he fucked up straight away.
    I'll at least give the ref a bit of credit for that.....he understood his mistake in a heated moment/game, but he could've easily given a yellow.

    Just watched the highlights again.....be bumps the ref's legs a bit, but nothing in it at all.....even at the game I was looking at a head or chest bump....that would've been trouble.
    As soon as I seen him running over, I though "oh no...don't do it!"
    Last edited by TFC Tifoso; 11-09-2017 at 08:45 AM.

  16. #106
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    A couple of other things: I am not certain that the foul on Seba was a penalty, but there is no doubt that it is way more a penalty than the one called on drew moor. Not even close. That kind of inconsistency must be infuriating to the players. Perhaps the same official should referee both legs?

    Also, having watched the game again, we completely controlled the entire thing. Absolutely dominant performance, except for the very poor lack of self discipline by the leaders on the team.

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post

    Also, having watched the game again, we completely controlled the entire thing. Absolutely dominant performance, except for the very poor lack of self discipline by the leaders on the team.
    Yeah I'm kind of inclined to agree, although maybe not to the extent of saying we controlled the entire thing. The narrative seems to be that TFC were terrible, but I really don't think so, we had a ton of great chances. Also, despite not scoring, I actually thought Seba looked better than he has in weeks. Especially near the end, he was dominant dribbling in tight spaces to keep possession and kill time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    A couple of other things: I am not certain that the foul on Seba was a penalty, but there is no doubt that it is way more a penalty than the one called on drew moor. Not even close. That kind of inconsistency must be infuriating to the players. Perhaps the same official should referee both legs?
    This is an interesting thought. The takeaway is that the Ref would know the crap pulled by a player in the first leg and be watching for it. I am sure they watch the previous games to prep for a game, but this is a case of in-game experience that would carry over to game 2.

    Although on the other hand, you run the risk of having a shitty ref for both legs.

    Something worth pondering though for sure.
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  19. #109
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    What gave me the thought is that the Seba foul would have had to be a penalty with the same referee given what happened in NY. But yes, there is risk....

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieocc View Post
    Yeah I'm kind of inclined to agree, although maybe not to the extent of saying we controlled the entire thing. The narrative seems to be that TFC were terrible, but I really don't think so, we had a ton of great chances. Also, despite not scoring, I actually thought Seba looked better than he has in weeks. Especially near the end, he was dominant dribbling in tight spaces to keep possession and kill time.
    agreed
    him and osorio put on a time killing clinic

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    Quote Originally Posted by fergiejr View Post
    This is an interesting thought. The takeaway is that the Ref would know the crap pulled by a player in the first leg and be watching for it. I am sure they watch the previous games to prep for a game, but this is a case of in-game experience that would carry over to game 2.

    Although on the other hand, you run the risk of having a shitty ref for both legs.

    Something worth pondering though for sure.
    Have the fourth official and the ref swap between the two legs. They'd compliment each other quite well with their differing viewpoints in game 2.

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    http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/toron...-melee/sn-amp/

    Based on what Jozy says here, it seems that there really is footage showing Kljestan trying to grab him from behind. I'm starting to believe there might be a chance that Jozy gets cleared.
    Last edited by marquis; 11-09-2017 at 09:57 PM.

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    Apparently the Red Bulls also appealed Klejstan's red card. What was that language about frivolous appeals again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Apparently the Red Bulls also appealed Klejstan's red card. What was that language about frivolous appeals again?
    They know what's on that video

    My guess: the treatment of Klejstan is the least of their worries.

    If you think there is a chance of massive fines and multiple suspensions, then the best defense is a good offence. You want an opportunity to frame your side of the story, and I do mean “frame”. (I have little doubt that NYRB will be claiming injustices that allegedly occurred off camera)
    Last edited by ensco; 11-10-2017 at 05:11 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Put you prediction here. Mine:

    TFC - Altidore- red stays on (or is changed to yellow, so he stays out of game 1), plus one game suspension next year. Vanney suspended one game next year

    NYRB - two additional games for Klejstan, so he misses first three next year, two game suspension for Marsch
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Nothing changes with regard to the suspensions... Maybe Sacha gets an extra game if he truly started it or if another NYRB player instigated it they get a game or two

    NYRB fined $100k for their stupidity in trying to start something in an area they should have never been in... Marsch gets 1 or 2 games next year due his team instigating this situation
    TFC fined $100K for not providing adequate security.

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    My prediction:
    Red cards for Sacha and Jozy stand - Jozy did push back (but he was never going to just stand there and take it).

    Sacha gets an extra game and a fine for instigating. NYRB get a fine for finding themselves in our hallway and Marsch gets a fine for not controlling his team. all fines un-disclosed

    Vanney gets a banner quoting "What are you doing here?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Put you prediction here. Mine:

    TFC - Altidore- red stays on (or is changed to yellow, so he stays out of game 1), plus one game suspension next year. Vanney suspended one game next year

    NYRB - two additional games for Klejstan, so he misses first three next year, two game suspension for Marsch
    This is fun. Good idea to post it!

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    TFC- Reduced to 2nd yellow card Jozy misses game 1

    NYRB- 2 games for the Pornstar and he can no longer film with Seka

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    My guess is the reds stay, Red Bulls are fined like $100,000.

 

 

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