you mean the posted link? What's so out of this world about it?.....Originally Posted by OgtheDim
you mean the posted link? What's so out of this world about it?.....
He's assuming European value loss between divisions and conveniently overstating the opposite view.In an open pro/rel structure, a relegated MLS team would indeed lose value, but not nearly as much as the difference in the current valuations of first- and second-division clubs suggests. The reduction in value would mainly result from the lower quality of play and the reduction in revenue streams, especially the loss of first-division broadcast payouts. However, the relegated team would retain much of its former value because it would still have the opportunity to rejoin the first division in ensuing years.
He is assuming sustainability at the second level in North America is compatible to the second level in the UK or France.
He is assuming TV revenues are the biggest loss in revenue streams.
He's ignoring that many teams that do go down do not go back up (my parent's hometown team was forcibly relegated from the Football league in 1971 and only this year got within one place of going back up)
He's ignoring that many teams that do go down risk going belly up (Hereford and numerous other examples).
He's also ignoring that when teams go down, costs do not decrease at the same rate as revenue.
He's ignoring the main driver of team existence in North America is not hundred-year-old fan bases and/or geographic location loyalty but ownership willing to put a team in a location.
As I said, he's living in a fantasy world.
Last edited by OgtheDim; 05-08-2017 at 01:39 PM.
ok I get that, but aren't those points relevant to pretty much any league across Europe, say?
The bolded point for me is the biggest one that would need to be worked around to make pro/rel work in NA.....I just can't wrap my head around how any owner who puts up what is now 100M in expansion fee would be able to accept their team getting sent down.....
pro/rel is definitely not imminent here, but not impossible either....I think he's laid it out as reasonably as anyone could.....
European distances and built in loyalties keep down costs and keep up revenues that allow teams to survive drops more easily. Pro/Rel as a system in Europe can not be brought over to North America....yet.
The US and Canada are slowly developing the infrastructure of local teams that will eventually allow for Pro Rel to exist - but we are talking 60 years from now for this to become sustainable and given that 60 years ago the biggest sports in the US were boxing and horse racing, I wouldn't want to make that bet.
I don't really understand what you mean by that....
Though I agree that the infrastructure is not quite in place yet, but is getting there....once that's in place, its a much more reasonable discussion.....still, I'm a little more confident that it can take place in a shorter period of time....20 years or so.....
When your league is no further than the distance between Windsor & Toronto, and you can have about 20 teams in that distance, your costs are significantly less then any Div 2 in North America would be. And the decades built in loyalties to local clubs in Europe keeps revenue coming in that wouldn't necessarily happen in leagues where there is no history.
ok I get the distance point, but I don't necessarily agree with loyalties that prop up revenue....you could make a case in that sense for teams who are in the bottom half of top flights, and special cases in teams like Newcastle, but in the general sense, I'm not so sure....
how much can any average team in the Championship or League 1 rely on revenues to prop them up? I see it as all relative to the teams they compete with.....once they move up, the revenue boost that comes from the league, and the increased interest from being in a better league boosts it.....just as I imagine it would with pro/rel here......
Last edited by TFC Tifoso; 05-08-2017 at 02:25 PM.
Moderator
For me, I couldn't really say which is more important in my mind, but like others have said, winning the SS is really winning the league title, and that should mean a lot. That said though, it's also true what they say about winning the last game of the year. A team could win the Supporters Shield and proceed to completely flame-out of the playoffs making the prior accomplishment somewhat moot, so there's that to consider.
Last edited by Cashcleaner; 05-11-2017 at 09:55 AM.
North America is a franchise setup, that's true of all the sports. If tribal loyalty meant anything in NA sports, you wouldn't see NFL teams flipping around the way they do.
North America, as a transient population, doesn't have the same sort of geographic loyalty that exists in European cities. Sure, there are some areas (especially in the 13 colonies) that have that vibe, and it is predominantly expressed through NCAA competition, but the majority of the population centres have a large amount of from-away residents who aren't so integrated into the community as to treat the sporting entities as expression of their identity.
yeah I get that, but I see soccer in NA as a unique situation and here's why....
growing infrastructure in the soccer landscape will bring teams to cities which may not have much to choose from, or may be the "only show in town", like NCAA college towns (or like what currently exists in Seattle, Portland, etc). This could go a long way it getting the people in these cities to get behind their team. The big pro leagues (MLB, NFL, NBA) only have a handful of places to choose from, because their objective is to have teams is the largest markets. And in the places where there is not enough support to maintain the huge costs, you'll see problems. Soccer can be a little more selective in this sense.
Also, the average soccer fan in NA is very used to the geographic loyalty that exists in Europe, and seeing as many immigrate from places where this exists, they also bring a loyalty to their new home. A bit of an assumption sure, but what we have right here in Toronto is an example. Immigrants or children of immigrants who all have loyalties to their teams from the old country, but take to TFC just the same, because for a soccer fan, its just what you do.
As long as it is not done something like Chivas USA, where a connection from the team to the people was basically forced, I think there's a potential to work very well.
Last edited by TFC Tifoso; 05-09-2017 at 09:57 AM.
I was going to try and research this, but then - well Wikipedia to the rescue... :-)
The last time a league winner won the cup was in 2011 - LAG.
I see this as two different "seasons". The playoffs are a whole new game. It's true that in NA we put more emphasis on a tournament that happens after the regular season, but that's how we do things in NA. As a recently converted fan I can see how this is important to those who only follow the NA way of sports - it feels familiar. Your team still has a chance at glory even though they came in 3rd in the division.
Having said that, I would like to see more emphasis placed on the shield. I would also love our boys to win it for us. ;-) We are coming a long way with this - remember, MLS used to have running penalties akin to NHL penalty shots. :-)
Road Games:
2013 - Montréal , 2014 - Orlando (Disney Classic), Montréal
2015 - Columbus, New England, Montréal
2016 - NYCFC (Leg 2 Conference Semis), Montréal (Leg 1 Conference Final)
2017 - Ottawa (Leg 1 Canadian Championship Semi), DCU, Red Bulls (Leg 1 Conference Final), Columbus (Leg 2 Conference Final)
2019 - Montréal, NYCFC (Eastern Conference Semi @ Citi Field), Seattle (MLS Cup Final)
SS = Best Team in the League
MLS Cup = League Champion
These are not the same thing. The best team doesn't always win the trophy.
The MLS Cup is what matters most. The only people who care about the Shield are the supporters groups. The average fan only the cup matters and people wont remember who was the regular season champion.
Whats the benefit of pro/reg?
1) Every team in the country(s) fall under the same pyramid, from the biggest Professional clubs down to sunday league sides.
2) the idea that you or I can form a club and see it rise to the top
3) In our case, we would theoretically no longer be incorporated as part of the league and all the current MLS teams would become their own stand alone entity's, and therefore supporters would have a far larger hand in the welfare of the club, and therefore a greater kinship towards the team.
This, theoretically, would in turn lead to a top down growth in the game. But there are many significant obstacles in place that make this scenario an impossibility in the near future and highly unlikely beyond that. There are also a hell of a lot of structural problems, some self-inflicted some not, that make it really unforeseeable atm.
There will likely come a time down the road when MLS and USSf are big enough that they'll have to decide whether they want to permanently go the single-entity route and stay the course, or really create a pyramid and see where that takes us. It'll be a long while 'til US Soccer forces itself to confront the fact that demand for local professional clubs across the US and Canada massively outweigh the supply, and that leaving that hole unsatisfied is bad for business long term.
Still a very long way down the road though.
You see this a bit in CHL, but you still get franchise behaviour (Bellveille Bulls, Brampton Battalion leaving, other teams like Peterborough Petes threatening to do so if they can't shake money out of local government etc)
I wish I had your optimism about communities rallying around a local team, but I just don't believe we have the rootedness required - heck, by definition, as a land of immigrants, we've been built by the people who have the most tenuous of roots to begin with.
or, it could be said:
SS - top of the qualifying rounds
MLS Cup - season champion
To save any arguments let's just win both this year
Let's play a game.
[The Supporters Shield is what matters most. The only people who care about MLS cup are average fans. The supporters appreciate the most winning team in the league and won't care who wins the post season tournament.
What's the benefit of playoffs to the supporter who watches every game of the season?]
Not great diminishing one group vs the other.
This thread is divisive. Let's keep it to structure and lay off the pigeon holing.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
That wouldn't be impossible at this point.
Pushing aside the discussions about prom/rel (isn't that a regular off-season thread since year 1?) and staying on topic I would love for TFC to win the SS. We've got the most depth, so the chances are good, even in a league of parity.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
There's only one way to play.
"You play to win the game"!
i.e. Go for everything...Supporters Shield, MLS Cup, CCL Championship, Concacef Championship
GlenM
"You play to win the game"
Herm Edwards - Former NFL Coach
This. Look at what happens when Montreal are doing crap. For all their bluster and arrogance their fan base evaporates when the team isn't winning (Expos anyone). DC, both texas teams, ....on and on have huge empty spots in their stadiums when we play them. The environment in N/A is not ready for Pro-Rel. Shit I can't believe I got into another pro-rel debate. It's just silly.
and back on topic. THIS.
I want all the silver wares.
PPG up to 2 after last night, tied for 2nd with Orlando; only Dallas is better.
Moderator
3 out of 4 of those competitions above are completely doable for TFC this season. Now travel back in time to even as early as 2014, and you've got a completely different outlook.
Last edited by Cashcleaner; 05-13-2017 at 05:17 AM.
As much as I want to say the SS is more important than the MLS Cup, the reality is that it isn't. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be, just that the league puts more emphasis on the MLS Cup. This can be seen by how the MLS Cup is promoted more than the SS. Furthermore, teams plan around preparing for the Playoff games at the expense of going for the SS. Were we not in the running for the SS with 5-10 games to go? And yet we had squad rotation to keep players fresh for the playoffs. I remember dropping points to weaker opponents and cursing Vanney for playing Endoh down the stretch. As long as teams sacrifice regular season games to prepare for the playoffs, we can't say that the SS matters more. It's unfortunate, but true.
The one silver lining I will take is that the media and league at least put some value in the SS. I would say it's more than in the other NA sports. For example the media builds up Supporter Shield races. It's just not as emphasized as the MLS Cup.
I can't remember if the 3-5-2 switch happened on July 2nd last year but that seems to be when it first appeared.
Since then we have played 29 regular season games if I have added right. In those games we have picked up 56 points. Lost just 4 games and averaged 1.9 PPG.
If we include the 6 playoffs games that is 4 wins 1 tie and 1 loss. Which is also about the 1.9PPG mark.
If TFC can maintain this form.. and it appears this is the new normal.... at least for now. We should finish the season between 61 and 68 points (64.6 is the average) (allowing for a slump or a second strong spell)
That is right in the range of every Support Shield team since the season became 34 games.
Orlando, FC Dallas SKC and Houston however are all in good form so far with 3 of the 4 at or above 1.9 PPG.
It is a long season so we will see we should actually be making a very serious run for it sadly we likely aren't going to be running away from the pack this year.
Just some food for thought.
Updated!
Biggest sport in Germany until the 1970's? Gymnastics.
Biggest sport in France in the 1930's? Cycling (still pretty big).
Times change.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
The SS can't possibly be considered the League Championship because of the totally whacked out schedules in MLS (see for example TFC having two double gameweeks in a row). Let alone the fact that we don't play a balanced schedule.
It is a piece of silverware, so of course go for it, but it's not comparable to, say, the EPL league title.
The news today of the injuries to Giovinco and Hagglund is a huge blow to us. I had a feeling when Vanney was talking about us having the best depth in MLS history it was going to come back and bite us, and so it came to pass.
Big Nick was having a great season and losing him for the year is a massive disappointment. However, at least we seem to have decent cover at the back and hopefully Moor will return to fill the void this weekend. Worst case scenario is it could mean a move to 4-4-2 though if Mavinga or Hernandez prove not up to the task.
Seba's projected three week absence is much more worrying. It seems the way things go with Séba we can expect those three weeks to turn out more likely to be five or six weeks. I really don't know if we can keep up the high standards we've set this season so far without or star player. In fact, injury aside, the entire situation around Giovinco this season has been worrying. He hasnt hit near the highs this season he has the previous two. I was hoping he was about to get a settled run and rediscover his form. But it wasn't to be. My fear is we seem to have alternated between Séba and Jozy having alternative standout performances. If one doesn't show the other has. Now we've lost one of them I fear we might struggle every other game unless Altidore can really step up his consistency and carry us through this spell. Whatever the case we need to hope that Giovinco is back and firing on all cylinders before the Gold Cup starts or were in real trouble. It's a good thing that we've enjoyed a great run of wins recently and have amassed a good lead in the standings as I fear we might be challenged in that regard in the weeks Séba is out
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote