Something I've been working on with my Sportsnet's colleagues for the past two months:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/big-r...ry-toronto-fc/
John Molinaro
Bleeding Red: The Oral History of Toronto FC
Something I've been working on with my Sportsnet's colleagues for the past two months:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/big-r...ry-toronto-fc/
John Molinaro
It's a good read John.
I guess you couldn't get a hold of Mo?
Also, hilarious to me that the story basically completely jumps over the Kevin Payne era.
Reached out to Mo several times. He never got back to me.
Re Payne, could only include so much. Some stuff had to be glossed over. Frings, too.
John
Understood wholeheartedly. Too bad you didn't hear back from Mo.
Really good read. I shouldn't have been reading, since I'm at work, but couldn't stop. I like the technique of telling the story mainly through quotes. Works really well. And there were some very interesting little tidbits throughout, especially from the early years. Looked like people were a bit more open to talking being so many years removed from it.
I would still love to know exactly what happened with Carver. Seems that even people close to it really didn't know.
Interesting to hear peoples' take on Winter, especially the former players. While we had a pretty dismal record under him, but seems players even now still respected him and what he was doing. Appears he didn't lose the room, which was one of the rumours at the time. We could even maybe say his attention to youth and the academy helped sow the seeds of what we are doing now. I hope he is remembered somewhat kindly, and not as the guy who got Andy Iro.
I was also interested in hearing about JD. It didn't work out, and probably both for us (with Jozy and Gio) and him (back to a top EPL scorer and playing for England again, which wouldn't have happened it he'd stayed) the result was best. I feel like he got a bit of a bad rap here. He is a quality individual - that picture of him with that young kid with terminal cancer asleep on his lap in his hospital bed was an absolute heartbreaker. I guarantee a lot of athletes of Defoe's level wouldn't have continued to sit there. Hearing that he was really just missing home and that it was nothing against TFC. That's not too hard to understand, and I personally don't hold a grudge against him for that.
Thanks John. Really great piece. I was hoping to forget December 10, but I'm now primed for Friday!!
Last edited by Canary10; 03-29-2017 at 01:04 PM.
Enjoyed the piece. Thanks for doing this, as it must have been a lot of hours put into this.Originally Posted by johnmolinaro
I do think adding a bit about TFC's CCL experience might have added a bit more flavour into the article, esp the CCL run into semi finals during Winter era.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Great article, John!
Tune into the Official Red Patch Boys Podcast on Spotify and Apple Music.
https://open.spotify.com/show/09Tk3GUscsd2ca1wl4mao1?si=vr_u5SdqRvm4HMqKYBE1wQ&d l_branch=1
Nicely done.....great article.
Thanks John.
Official Member of the Montreal Miracle Crew 2009
Really well done. No surprise Mo declined to be interviewed.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I gave it a skim, and will go back to read in depth. We really were the worst team in the world, weren't we?
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Thanks for that John. You really got some great quotes in there. Dunfield with Koovs after the "worst team in the world" thing, Dichio saying the Montreal game was his final... very nice.
My quibble (or better yet, future column suggestion) is that you need to address some of Peddie's on-the-record statements about how he "managed" TFC, and you didn't even mention Teachers, or get anyone there (or better yet, formerly there) to talk. Those are the root stories of TFC's epic disasters 2007-2013.
Just as an example - Peddie in his book freely admitted to knowing that Tom Anselmi was not qualified to run TFC, but did it out of loyalty, and because it "didn't really matter" - it was just some sort of training ground for the big clubs anyway.
The professionalization of TFC (and of all the MLSE teams) began the second Teachers/Peddie left. There were things in Peddie's biography that had me truly feeling cheated out of thousands of dollars, as a season ticket holder. All the teams would have grievances, but Teachers were just incompetent with the Leafs and Raps. With TFC, Teachers/Peddie were particularly cavalier, we were truly treated like a bastard stepchild.
Last edited by ensco; 03-29-2017 at 06:11 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Great article John!
The part I liked most was about Winter. I still say to this day that if he had more support/competence from people above him, his plan would've worked. He came in with a professional plan, at a time when management was still small time.
Will never forget a little while after Winter was fired (and Professor No-pants had taken over) when Bob De Klerk was still around for a bit, I asked him "Bob, what the hell is going on?".....his answer was simple and 2 words "No vision".
Perhaps Winter's idea was slightly too structured, but you can see now with the commitment from the team at the TFC II level to match the big team's system that the idea was right.
Only thing is I would've liked to hear more about the period where Mariner was coach as I feel that was truly the worst period of TFC's history. Would've liked to get a bit more of the players' take of that time....otherwise, a really good read!
My god I remember that day! We were yelling from 127 across that access way in the north/west corner as the management boxes were located on the other side. It's amazing what we all endured as a fan base. (De Kerk was cool...and psycho looking...probably killed a guy)
It really is.....this article brought up some things that I had forgotten about (was hoping it was forever), but man its been fun too! Hopefully we're on to a good run of years now.
At the very least, it was interesting to hear guys like Peddie finally admit that they didn't have a blessed clue of what they were doing at first....different from the tune at the time....
What was the Peddie quote on Anselmi? Something like "nice little job for him to learn some stuff by?"
I'll reiterate what everyone else has said - thanks for a great article. I'm sure you had to pick and choose what to include and exclude, but it gave a good overview of the trajectory of the club over the last decade. I would liked to have seen more about the dysfunction at the club, especially at what I consider to be the turning point for the club, which was the hiring of Kevin Payne. I remember the stunned looks on the faces of Anselmi, Cochrane, and Mariner when he was introduced. I have a feeling that the board went right over their heads and blindsided them in making that appointment. But I understand you have to be careful of burning bridges.
To be honest, it had nothing to do with burning bridges (I've NEVER been worried about that). The Payne era was bad, but it was relatively short, and the damage was, all things considered, somewhat limited. That's why it was glossed over in my piece.I'll reiterate what everyone else has said - thanks for a great article. I'm sure you had to pick and choose what to include and exclude, but it gave a good overview of the trajectory of the club over the last decade. I would liked to have seen more about the dysfunction at the club, especially at what I consider to be the turning point for the club, which was the hiring of Kevin Payne. I remember the stunned looks on the faces of Anselmi, Cochrane, and Mariner when he was introduced. I have a feeling that the board went right over their heads and blindsided them in making that appointment. But I understand you have to be careful of burning bridges.
For me, the turning point was the hiring of Leiweke. It was at that juncture that I felt the club started to get its act together.
As far as wanting more on dysfunction, I don't know--I thought we covered it pretty well, especially during the Mo era and during the entire Jurgen/Winter thing (which, btw, I consider the absolute low point of the franchise--and that pains me to admit because just on a personal level, I really liked Aron. Super guy and so wanted him to succeed, but it became pretty clear that he was a poor hire.
Anyway, I appreciate all the feedback.
If you have any other questions you want to ask about the oral history piece, fire away! I'll try my best to answer them all.
John
PS: The original version of my story was supposed to be 50,000 words. I wrote 50,000 words but then it got cut down to 18,000 - which is still the longest story ever published on the Sportsnet website.
I have the one I posted above. What really happened with Carver? I always thought there was some behind the scenes thing and that he was actually fired, but some of your quotes from people around at the time suggest they don't really know why he quit. Any idea from all your discussions why he left?To be honest, it had nothing to do with burning bridges (I've NEVER been worried about that). The Payne era was bad, but it was relatively short, and the damage was, all things considered, somewhat limited. That's why it was glossed over in my piece.
For me, the turning point was the hiring of Leiweke. It was at that juncture that I felt the club started to get its act together.
As far as wanting more on dysfunction, I don't know--I thought we covered it pretty well, especially during the Mo era and during the entire Jurgen/Winter thing (which, btw, I consider the absolute low point of the franchise--and that pains me to admit because just on a personal level, I really liked Aron. Super guy and so wanted him to succeed, but it became pretty clear that he was a poor hire.
Anyway, I appreciate all the feedback.
If you have any other questions you want to ask about the oral history piece, fire away! I'll try my best to answer them all.
John
PS: The original version of my story was supposed to be 50,000 words. I wrote 50,000 words but then it got cut down to 18,000 - which is still the longest story ever published on the Sportsnet website.
Why would you say it was that and not during Mariner's time as coach? To me it seemed like the everything about the team was sour at that time. And that's when it seemed like many of the fans started to check out too. Winter's CCL run at least was a positive thing.....nothing about Mariner's time here looked good. And he also seemed to hate the experience.To be honest, it had nothing to do with burning bridges (I've NEVER been worried about that). The Payne era was bad, but it was relatively short, and the damage was, all things considered, somewhat limited. That's why it was glossed over in my piece.
For me, the turning point was the hiring of Leiweke. It was at that juncture that I felt the club started to get its act together.
As far as wanting more on dysfunction, I don't know--I thought we covered it pretty well, especially during the Mo era and during the entire Jurgen/Winter thing (which, btw, I consider the absolute low point of the franchise--and that pains me to admit because just on a personal level, I really liked Aron. Super guy and so wanted him to succeed, but it became pretty clear that he was a poor hire.
Anyway, I appreciate all the feedback.
If you have any other questions you want to ask about the oral history piece, fire away! I'll try my best to answer them all.
John
PS: The original version of my story was supposed to be 50,000 words. I wrote 50,000 words but then it got cut down to 18,000 - which is still the longest story ever published on the Sportsnet website.
Last edited by TFC Tifoso; 03-30-2017 at 02:48 PM.
Everything I've been told and been led to believe by multiple people I spoke to is that JC simply had enough of MLS. He absolutely loved the city of Toronto. Love it. But the rules and limitations of MLS was something he struggled with and at times he really stressed out over them. I think it just got to the point where he couldn't take the stress any more.
JM
Paul inherited a big mess left by the Jurgen/Aron era. Paul certainly didn't help his own cause during his coaching tenure. But the team was so dire when he took over that it was largely just about stopping the bleeding. I can tell you, with great certainty, Paul did not hate the experience. On the contrary, actually.
I appreciate that you and others think THE low point came when Mariner took over. That's fair. It was a low point. But I just think the team was a complete mess during Aron's run--and again, I say that as someone who got along better with Aron far better than I ever did with Paul.
John
Hmm, interesting. I remember seeing him just before the next game after he quit at the Foggy Dew. Looked like he'd had a few. I always thought we were in pretty good hands with him, and things may have been different if he'd stayed. He had a good mix of realism along with decent tactical awareness.
If the MLS rules drove him out, wonder what he'd think of the current MLS, with all the GAM and TAM, etc. Lol.
Btw, I got no work done yesterday morning. I couldn't stop reading. Thanks a lot!
Oh, I think his head would explode over GAM and TAM.
You have to remember he came from a league where there was no salary cap and when you wanted to go out and buy a player, you could do it fairly easily. I think the MLS model was so far different form what he was used to that it got to the point he couldn't deal with it any more.
JM
I think we would love to see the entire 50,000 words story... well, it's a nice start to a future book?PS: The original version of my story was supposed to be 50,000 words. I wrote 50,000 words but then it got cut down to 18,000 - which is still the longest story ever published on the Sportsnet website.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Ok fair enough. For me, I see the "mess" that was left as a circumstantial thing....namely, Winter being unable to carry out his plan of having young guys like Cordon, Stinson, etc. grow up with the team. Just seemed like Mariner had no patience to deal with that. But I guess considering the mentality that the FO seemed to have it makes sense as to why patience was thin on his part. Still, at the very least, I found Mariner's personnel decisions to be the most baffling we've ever had. Maybe even moreso now hearing what his mandate was after Winter.
Oh well, good to hear he liked the experience anyways.....it seemed like there was absolutely no pride during his time here. I mean, when you hear the guy talk on ESPN FC, he makes sense, and I actually find myself agreeing with him a lot. But it didn't look like it was applied at all while here.
Thanks John!
Last edited by TFC Tifoso; 03-30-2017 at 03:19 PM.
This should've been an online video special. Easily could've been a half hour segment.
PS: The original version of my story was supposed to be 50,000 words. I wrote 50,000 words but then it got cut down to 18,000 - which is still the longest story ever published on the Sportsnet website.
Mariner was also just a very unlikable guy when he was here. His approach with the supporters was way too confrontational, at a time when we were all on our last straw. The story of how he got rid of JDG still really pisses me off.
yep totally.....telling the players he sent him to Dallas to "burn in the heat" was absolutely terrible. And you have to think that didn't go well with the players who were still with TFC. By all accounts from the article, Winter was well liked, even though we wasn't very successful.
I guess that's part of the thing with Carver too. Personally, I though the guy was a blowhard, but that part about him was also what made him endearing to some of the supporters. When you're a likeable guy, you get more slack.
And its bang on with the part about the supporters.
Last edited by TFC Tifoso; 03-30-2017 at 03:36 PM.
Funny story about Carver. After one game, he was asked a pretty tame question in the press conference. He blew up on all of us, pulled out photo copies of recent stories written by us about the team, and went on a classic tirade for 10 minutes. It was a pretty funny meltdown.
But credit to JC-- 20 minutes later he was in the locker room as we talked to players, and by then the entire thing blew over and he was chatting with us as nothing had happened.
JM
I was on the team's flight back from the KC opener in 2009 (it was a commercial flight, lots of supporters were). Carver was sitting beside Mo in the lounge for maybe 30 minutes but they never talked - they were both on cell phones. You could hear Carver from a mile away - he was talking to someone about Newcstle football, it really animated him for a long time. This was after a big win.
I thought he was going home from that moment on. His relationship with Mo was not seemingly very friendly, and he really missed the Magpies, it was all he knew or cared about.
Last edited by ensco; 03-30-2017 at 06:47 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
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