St. Louis MLS bid takes a big hit after water-down stadium funding referendum failed to pass.
This whole MLS expansion thing is beginning to get funny. Sacramento falls apart, Charlotte dissolves into an awful spat on ethnic-political lines, now St. Lou blows up.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 04-05-2017 at 10:53 AM.
I think the Sacramento bid eventually got its shit together and got everyone on board. If it stays that way they're a lock for franchise #24.
St. Louis is almost definitely dead now. That's a big loss for the league's expansion plans. They were probably the most ideal next stop for the league market and geography-wise. The field gets pretty thin of sure fire successes once you get past Sac and St. Louis.
North Carolina repealed HB2, so the Charlotte bid looks pretty reasonable now I guess. If I'm betting I'm saying Sac, Charlotte, Phoenix, San Antonio and either Nashville or Indianapolis are the cities that get us to 28.
Nope. Repeal in name only. LGBTQ community up in arms - only the NCAA caved. Basically made it worse - cities now can not make legislation to ban discrimination.Originally Posted by molenshtain
MLS going in there would not go over well.
*****
I'm thinking its now Sacramento, Tampa, & Detroit
No shit eh? serves me right for just reading the headlines I guess. Raleigh/Durham and Charlotte bids still a ways away from the table then I guess.
Detroit has the ownership to put together a team for sure, probably more so than any of the bids currently on the table. But if I'm MLS I'm super wary about the presence of Detroit City FC and the strong possibility they take away core support from the potential team. Dan Gilbert isn't known to be deft at public relations and community outreach to say the least, so I'm not too sure the league goes for Detroit right now.
What's your thinking behind Tampa? I would think the league is still trying to cover markets where they don't have a presence.
Scuttlebutt to a certain extent but Tampa also has the infrastructure in place with a decent downtown (if slightly weird) stadium, the ownership is solid, and is a built in local rival for Orlando.
Ur right on Detroit but I wouldn't underestimate the pull of those NBA owners.
I wish North Carolina could get that team as the South, as shown by Atlanta, is a huge market for soccer but their legislators are stupid.
I seriously don't think Garber & Co. are worried about an NPSL side causing trouble and distress for an MLS team in the same market. Besides, the owners of DCFC and a good solid chunk of their fan base don't think an MLS team in Detroit will create trouble for either side. I wouldn't be surprised if both sides got together in some sort of partnership/ownership that would be beneficial for pro soccer in Detroit.
TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)
Generally I would agree with you. MLS shouldn't be worried about expanding into cities that already have smaller lower league presences - it certainly wasn't a problem in Atlanta for instance. But DCFC is a different animal entirely. Along with Chattanooga they're probably the best run/best supported semi-pro team in the country. They're also entirely fan owned and very community oriented and they take that very seriously (they just raised 750k to refurbish their stadium). They're steadfast in their unwillingness to be bought out. They're very well liked in the community and they're probably a big enough presence in Detroit that if MLS were to piss them off it could drive away a lot of people.
It's a likelihood an MLS team in Detroit isn't viable because the well has already been poisoned, so to speak. The piece below lays it out in depth.
http://www.sbnation.com/2016/12/12/1...-fc-soccer-mls
Detroit's one of the major league cities in America, both in surrounding metro population and sports, something Chattanooga is not. The idea of an NPSL side that plays seven regular season home games in a 7,000 seat stadium at $10 per ticket can easily crush a competing MLS franchise in a city as big as Detroit is, to say the least, laughable. Especially when there's NBA money behind the bid.
TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)
Sorry I should have been more clear. I don't disagree that a new MLS team in Detroit would immediately do better commercially than the NPSL team - of course it would. My point was that creating a new team with Gilbert as the owner - he has to be the most hated man in the midwest - would not be a viable long term option in Detroit. The grassroots outreach would be negligible and ignored. The fans would be mostly fair-weather and interest would dwindle not long after the team's inception. Putting a new team there would piss off a lot of people on the ground - thousands of potential hardcore supporters - that I would imagine MLS would much rather have on their side where they to start a new team there.
Remember how everyone freaked out about the Sac bid being DOA after it looked like they weren't bringing the Republic along with them? It would be like that, but much worse.
Last edited by molenshtain; 04-06-2017 at 01:55 PM.
From what I understand about the bid, Dan Gilbert would stay in the background looking after most of the business end, while Pistons owner Tom Gores would, for all intents and purposes, be the face of ownership. There was a front page write up about him last year in one of the Detroit papers about his love for soccer and how it would translate for him as an MLS owner. Gores would be the one trying to connect with fans and supporters in the city. The vital part where ownership and fans come together. I doubt Gilbert has that touch to make it happen and he would know it.
These DCFC supporters you point out come off as the type of entitled purity snots that think they own full territorial rights to the Metro Detroit soccer scene and that no one should come in on their turf without their permission. Not even MLS. There's no reason why there can't be both a DCFC team and an MLS Detroit team. Why should all fans in that city be forced to get behind a team that plays in a league with less than stellar talent against the likes of a Dayton, Ann Arbor or Kalamazoo when there is an opportunity to join a league with far better talent and play against the New Yorks, the LAs and the Torontos, like fans of other Detroit sports teams have been accustomed to for decades? And why wouldn't any MLS Detroit supporters groups replicate the same passion that DCFC supporters do at their home games?
The idea that Detroit would fail as an MLS market because soccer fans there don't find it pure enough for their liking is a giant pile of bollocks. Someone needs to serve them some cheese with that whine of theirs.
TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)
Yes, but a very spread out sprawl city with a very poor actual Detroit city, with even very poor outter towns. A lot of American cites generally have sprawl but Detroit is a hurting one. 1950 almost 2 million people, today 680,000 in a 370km area compared to Toronto now with 2.7 million in 630km or an estimate over 800,000 people in Toronto in the "old Toronto" area (or make it simple old Toronto does not include any of the boroughs population like North York, Etobicoke, Scarborough, exc.) in only 95km area. Overall Detroit city and outter parts of the city are hurting to say the least despite its total "Metro" population as being large. It's a risk. That said it's not like it's all poor, there is money to but it's got it's problem no doubt.
Last edited by james; 04-12-2017 at 06:28 AM.
It would be nice if there are more canadian teams into consideration. I guess for now this could only be either Ottawa (few team already in the area) or Edmonton (way to north I guess).
Not sure why these two teams don't push for MLS or even Calgary.
Then why have some of the local major league teams, like the Lions and, just recently, the Pistons, decided to move back into the poor core?
TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)
I'm guessing not big enough and too congested with NHL and CFL teams dominating the local attention and sponsorship dollars. Plus, MLS would like to have more larger U.S. markets to attract a better U.S. TV deal. I think we should count our blessings that we have three Canadian teams in a 23 team league.
TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)
Because the state and city legislature's have decided - despite the fact that the city is bankrupt - it's somehow in everyone's interest to give absolutely massive tax breaks/incentives to billionaire's. There's very little in it or the city. If the city/state wasn't handing out almost a billion dollars to private investors there wouldn't be a new Arena.
The U.S. has a lot of really shitty public-private stadium deals. The new Detroit one is up there for being the most blatantly evil, craven one of them all. When crap like this is par for the course, it's understandable where the DCFC fans are coming from with their general unwillingness to have anything to do with private ownership.
Which is why Detroit City FC is looking for private investors to take it to a professional Division 3 level.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ide-investment
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)
Hello. I'm new-ish to the forum and this is my first post. I'm from England but Toronto is my team in the MLS (my GF is local)
I really enjoy the MLS and it's so refreshing in some areas compared to the BPL and I'm keen to see it continue to grow in a similar fashion.
This post isn't about the future of clubs expansion like many posts... more so the future of the rules regarding salary caps and designated player rules. (It took me some time to figure out but I've nailed it now!)
One area I really think needs to be addressed is that currently players on low wages with bags of potential will be poached by European clubs. For example Cyle Larin has been constantly linked with a move away and even says he wants to one day play in the BPL (I'd have him at West Ham in a heartbeat compared to the over paid dross we constantly sign!!) it would be very sad to see him leave the MLS especially if he never gets a chance to play in Canada. Obviously it would affect the national team too especially if he's not getting minutes in the merry go round of the BPL.
It's not just Larin. Let's use Acosta & Zimmerman at Dallas or Morris at Seattle, even Adams at New York.
In my opinion there needs to be some changes made to ensure players like this stay in North America and continue to develop and for the national teams. I think the best way to do that is to introduce an expanded DP rule for Canadian/US players only. (Obviously increasing overall salary caps would help too) but I'd like to see the MLS proactively setup some rules to retain these types of players before they're sold off.
A move to BPL never helped Henry at West Ham!
ahoy! always glad to engage a convert from across the pond.
The league has in fact taken steps to address the potential issue you bring up. This past off-season the league gave each team a 'Homegrown allocation fund'. It allows you to offer your homegrown players a more lucrative deal than average in order to keep them from potentially going to Europe before they play a game for you. It's how Seattle managed to keep Jordan Morris last year. TFC is currently negotiating a similar deal with a very well regarded prospect named Ayo Akinola, though it's looking like he already has one foot out the door.
In terms of the benefits of of having our best young players stay in the league once we have them... I'm dubious as to the benefits for the club or the player. In an ideal world itd be nice to keep those guys, but if the league wants to grow in stature it's going to need to become a league that can churn out players that can be sold and compete in the top 5 leagues routinely before we can think about keeping them long term. the league is going to need to become like the eredivisie before it can be the bundesliga or the premier league.
as for it being better for the players to stay, it's a mixed bag but as the league gets better so too will the results of the young players we send across. you Have your Henry's (tbf he's more injury ridden than not up to par - he was very good in limited minutes for Blackburn IIRC) and your Shea's and whatnot. But you also now have your Yedlin's and your Miazga's, both of whom will be at the very least rotation players on premier league clubs next year. Larin and Acosta will outgrow this league and be starting in the PL within two years as well. Eventually these kids are going to get stars in their eyes and leave for greener pastures. At some point it becomes detrimental for both the players and the league to try and keep those guys here long term. You might stunt their progress and you hide the talent we have here by not selling them on.
There will be a tier of guys below the best though - like the Zimmerman's of the league - who will likely stay in the league for their careers and be paid handsomely, perhaps even DP money. Some teams have been starting to give smaller DP contracts that can be bought down to good domestic players (Besler and Zusi in Kansas, Gonzalez in LA etc.).
As the quality of players we produce continues to get exponentially better so too will the league and the fortunes of the players who leave. But The league is getting to a point where it's starting to continuously produce players who they will not be able to give them the money or exposure they deserve in the short term. It'll be a decade probably before we can think about keeping those high end talents from crossing the pond, no real way around it.
Last edited by molenshtain; 04-19-2017 at 10:34 AM.
Ah that's great..maybe I haven't nailed your rules as much as I thought I had but I was aware of Morris situation from the highlights show we have here...just not the fund it come from. It's a good step in the right direction. It would be good to see some North Americans return too...but once they are on silly wages over here I don't blame them for sticking around.
What is great about a salary cap is as a regular at BPL matches I have seen some second string players on double what most DP MLS wages get... and they simply haven't got the attitude to play for the shirt because they know they are comfortable in a long term contract, earning millions and will move on and repeat it elsewhere. Whereas I see some players putting in shifts in the MLS and grafting hard despite earning salaries not even Chelsea 16 year olds would take on. I have more respect for guys like Morrow and Hagglund than I have for most of West Ham's players who are on outrageous wages. You've got players with heart even if they aren't as talented...and that's what fans want to see. I think that's a result of the tough competition to earn your wages.
Another thing is you actually have a wide range of clubs who have something to play for. West Ham are out of a title chase before the first whistle of the season. It's depressing. I know friends who even enjoy the thought of relegation in hope of winning a trophy to get back up! England used to have different winners until Man Utd Chelsea and Man City sucked the life out of it. There's not much rules to enforce. Even our youth are foreign on high wages.
Ultimately the main thing for me is the fans...That's why you guys could easily become one of the top leagues in the world. In my opinion the passion and encouragement at a few clubs is streets ahead of English football no question. Flares, flags, regular chants and now safe standing. What a breath of fresh air! In England you'd be arrested for flares, banned from the stadiums as a result, flags can be removed by stewards, and a drum?! You wouldn't get passed the stadium security. We've lost what football is all about here...and as long as you keep doing what you're doing you'll be a top league soon enough.
Back to the topic I'd like to see Cincinnati as an expansion club in the MLS. There's potential there for sure.... and sorry but the thought of 'Miami Beckham'...please don't go for it. I'd read that's the team name. It's pathetic. No wonder he's struggling to get it done.
Ideally I'd like to see a few more Canadian clubs but sounds like it could be too late unless they form a second tier. I know Ottawa and Edmonton have a half decent setup but what about other cities? Calgary? Quebec?
The CSA is looking at starting a Canadian Premier League that would include cities like Calgary, Hamilton, and Ottawa. I've even heard Halifax and Regina being thrown around. Hopefully we'll know a little bit more about them soon because supposedly they're going to announce something in May. However, I've heard rumors of announcements before and they've falen through. That makes me think there are significant hurdles to be overcome still.
Anybody else see the article where LAFC claimed to be setting the bar for the rest of the league?
Moderator
Cleaned up some needless hostility, and the follow-up posts about it (since they'd make no sense without context).
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
So TL is pitching the latest Miami stadium idea.
Nice rendering but only one problem.
No parking.
But....
Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/doug_hanks/status/864976298657107975
Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/doug_hanks/status/864977591391879170
Portland seem to be making a mess of things imho. $50M to add only 4,000 seats. Apparently they are on a really cramped site which won't allow for better expansion. Also the site is supposedly situated over an underwater river which makes real grass an impossibility. If ever a club should have looked at relocation to a new site it's Portland, I can't believe they haven't chosen this route and a brand new stadium. Surely a new build wouldn't be far off $50M and would offer greater rewards for them than throwing money at a poor location?
The current supporter make up of Portland is heavy on transit and bike use. If they moved to the burbs (and there isn't much land in their burbs left), they would lose most of their supporter base.
TFC spent $120 million to add 10,000 seats, so Portland numbers sound in line.
We added roofs and winterized the stadium, thats significanly different.
4,000 seats and various hospitality areas/lounges.
When will ever forbid MLS the use of plastic pitches in any MLS team's stadium?
MLS will never be a serious league until all stadiums have grass pitch.
(Probably 60% of all forum members will disagree with this.
Hey, think about this: In the whole world outside MLS plastic pitches for footy are just in places which have a harsh cold climate, which does not permit a proper grass pitch.)
FWIW, most EPL pitches are moving to hybrid and the non leagues are all buying full plastic (3G as its called). Too much rain over the winter. Its coming to the lower leagues as well because full grass is just too darn expensive.
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