Match Day 34 - The End of the Beginning - Chicago @ Toronto - Sunday Oct 23 4pm

[OgtheDim]

Have at It People

[mistercorporate]

RASTA BUMBACLOTT MON!!!

There, I got that out of my system...

P.S. I'm not Jamaican, don't ask me what that means

[OgtheDim]

For those with a more dire point of view:

[Jack]

This game has suddenly become YUGE.

[Oldtimer]

For those with a more dire point of view:

That's a seriously depressing video. Let's hope our home game is one of nothing but positivity.

[DinamoTFC]

This game has suddenly become YUGE.

Who would have guessed this a month ago. So dissapointing. And a win here only matters if nycfc tie or draw Columbus so we can squeak into 2nd and get the bye.

[OgtheDim]

Relying upon CBus to do something to get into 2nd is WAAAAY better then relying upon your team winning at Giants Stadium to get the last playoff spot.

We got issues in the midfield - hopefully it gets sorted out in the off season. And that defence needs to settle a bit - too much after goal weirdness again this season and I don't think that's all the midfield's fault.

Better us then the Impact right now.

[MartinUtd]

So if we win and NY-ManCity draws, we take 2nd. What is the criteria if we end up even on points?

[anto7]

So if we win and NY-ManCity draws, we take 2nd. What is the criteria if we end up even on points?

We would both have the same number of wins (first tie breaker) so then it goes to goal difference which means we would get 2nd

[OgtheDim]

We would both have the same number of wins (first tie breaker) so then it goes to goal difference which means we would get 2nd

Its not possible for us to end up tied on points and have the same number of wins. If we tie and they lose, we end up in 3rd.

We need a win.

[anto7]

Its not possible for us to end up tied on points and have the same number of wins. If we tie and they lose, we end up in 3rd.

We need a win.

Yep, you are correct, I was just coming to correct my mistake

[notthesun]

Let's win a home game, yeah?

[GhostKiller]

If healthy I would like to see this line up: (Even though I know it's never going to happen)

-----Ricketts------------Jozy----
----------------seba--------------
--Oso----------------------Cooper
-------Johnson----Bradley-------
------Morrow---Moor----Biet------
---------------Irwin--------------

Bring in Hamilton, Cheyrou, Babouli, Endoh, Zavs or Haggs as needed.
If Bradley is going to push up then Johnson stays at home, and vice versa. Have our defenders do less overlapping runs and push play through the middle. There is enough veteran knowledge on that back line to defend as a unit and not get pulled apart and there is enough talent in every one of those forwards to case lots of issues for the opposing defenders and create space.

[denime]

-----Ricketts------------Jozy----
----------------Seba--------------
--Cooper----------------------Endoh
-------Johnson----Cheyrou-------
------Morrow---Moor----Biet------
---------------Irwin--------------

Hamilton, Bradley, Babouli, Oso, Zavs, Haggs

Bradley on the bench,he is useless as it gets,can't make a pass his life was depending on it,we played better with Johnson----Cheyrou when Bradley was out,would like to see Chapman and Bloom back in line up asap.

[OgtheDim]

Bradley on the bench,he is useless as it gets,can't make a pass his life was depending on it....

The Opta stats from Saturday's game strongly disagree with you.

And Whoscored had his pass completion rate at 83%

This is as bad as when people came out of the Brazil world cup thinking Jermaine Jones was better then Bradley because of the first half of the first game of that tournament.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/10...act-Toronto-FC


http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2016-10-16-montreal-impact-vs-toronto-fc/boxscore

[JoesphNdo]

83% is not good for that position. Look at the amount of times he gets the ball in his own half and makes a lot of quick simple passes back to defenders or to somebody beside him. There's nothing wrong with that, in fact i wish that's all he did with the ball because the problems arise when he thinks he's better than he is, but it skews the pass completion %. What I would love to see with Bradley is turnovers per game which I'd bet is way way too high for a defensive mid fielders and our points per game with him vs without

[jloome]

83% is not good for that position. Look at the amount of times he gets the ball in his own half and makes a lot of quick simple passes back to defenders or to somebody beside him. There's nothing wrong with that, in fact i wish that's all he did with the ball because the problems arise when he thinks he's better than he is, but it skews the pass completion %. What I would love to see with Bradley is turnovers per game which I'd bet is way way too high for a defensive mid fielders and our points per game with him vs without

He's right, 83% is pretty mediocre. It wouldn't be in the top-20 pass completion rates for the league. But it's not "way too high" a miss rate, it's actually average.

He has insane numbers of touches, too, probably near the top of the league. His problem is that he's trying to crack open the backline too often; he had eight long missed passes in that game, which is ridiculous. All of them were balls over the top, so it was either failed strategy to catch them with a high line or just really bad decision making.

[OgtheDim]

Uh 20th in the league is mediocre?

OK.

Bradley was 8th in passing completion % for that game - his % was right about his average for the year actually. He's 3rd in the team behind Moor and Osorio for pass completion %.

My point was saying he couldn't pass at all was hyperbole. He's a long ball specialist with more passes per game then any player in the league.


Suggesting Chapman is better just makes no sense.

[JoesphNdo]

You can't look at pass completion % across the board as being a universal stat. DM by nature will have higher % than players who mainly get the ball in the opponent's half or near their goal. You need to look at turnovers and how they compare to top players in his position.

To be clear, I'm not saying Bradley is bad, or that Chapman is better! I'm saying he's a bog standard mediocre MLS level mid fielder the way he plays. My problem with him is 1, we could get far better for that money and DP slot (or get the same output without sacrificing either) and 2 he's capable of being the best in the league if he played to his strengths, but he will not stay disciplined. Now that could be Vanney and Bradley is merely following orders, but I can only see the output on the field

[molenshtain]

You can't look at pass completion % across the board as being a universal stat. DM by nature will have higher % than players who mainly get the ball in the opponent's half or near their goal. You need to look at turnovers and how they compare to top players in his position.

To be clear, I'm not saying Bradley is bad, or that Chapman is better! I'm saying he's a bog standard mediocre MLS level mid fielder the way he plays. My problem with him is 1, we could get far better for that money and DP slot (or get the same output without sacrificing either) and 2 he's capable of being the best in the league if he played to his strengths, but he will not stay disciplined. Now that could be Vanney and Bradley is merely following orders, but I can only see the output on the field

but he's also the only midfielder playing the necessary, risky penetrating passes to our forwards. He's a DM but yesterday he was also our primary playmaker. He'll have a higher number of turnovers because none of the guys in front of him are trying any penetrating passes and rely on him to do it.

[JoesphNdo]

but he's also the only midfielder playing the necessary, risky penetrating passes to our forwards. He's a DM but yesterday he was also our primary playmaker. He'll have a higher number of turnovers because none of the guys in front of him are trying any penetrating passes and rely on him to do it.

He isn't good enough, effective enough or consistent enough to do this though. And like I said, that could be on Vanney, but it costs us more than he gains us. How many times does he give the ball away unnecessarily in a game and kill our attack, costing us potential goals or down the line costing us goals coneeded? How many goals have come directly from this? How many goals, like last week, conceded directly from this? Is the positive worth the negative? That's hard to statistically measure but intuitively to me it seems we lose more than we gain and by a significant margin and the successful passes do not compensate this.

[Blindside16]

I just want a solid 90 minutes from the boys in this game. We need to hit the playoffs with confidence and a tight solid game will go a long way in helping that. I think 2-0 for the good guys in this one.

[C.Ronaldo]

Was switching Bono out a mistake?

[OgtheDim]

Can't fault Irwin for any of the goals except possibly that DCU chip. I also think he solidifies the communication in the back. He also doesn't overthink his passes out.

What Irwin can't do is kick a fast hard far one to Jozy to chest into a runner.

[ag futbol]

but he's also the only midfielder playing the necessary, risky penetrating passes to our forwards. He's a DM but yesterday he was also our primary playmaker. He'll have a higher number of turnovers because none of the guys in front of him are trying any penetrating passes and rely on him to do it.

Cooper.

[molenshtain]

Cooper.

to
to a lesser extent, sure. But all four midfielders have to be willing and able to do it to take the focus off Bradley. Teams still entirely key in on him when we have possession because Osorio/Endoh/Delgado aren't in form and refuse to push the ball into our forwards in dangerous areas. We can't play two of those guys at the same time. Cooper helps, but not enough to mask the problems created by the other guys.

[MightyDM]

but he's also the only midfielder playing the necessary, risky penetrating passes to our forwards. He's a DM but yesterday he was also our primary playmaker. He'll have a higher number of turnovers because none of the guys in front of him are trying any penetrating passes and rely on him to do it.

osorio does this too, every game. He is involved in the link up play nearly every goal. Just because he isn't putting them in doesn't mean he isn't creating them, he is.

the replays of Bradley from last year, posted elsewhere, show how effective he was when allowed to go forward . And many of them show contributions by Osorio.

if we are going to complain about performances, Givinco and Altidore both had a poor first touch, for them. I'll put it down to rust but it's clear when watching the game again.

[molenshtain]

osorio does this too, every game. He is involved in the link up play nearly every goal. Just because he isn't putting them in doesn't mean he isn't creating them, he is.

the replays of Bradley from last year, posted elsewhere, show how effective he was when allowed to go forward . And many of them show contributions by Osorio.

Yeah, Osorio was really good last year when he was played deeper. I think that's what his best position in and playing him anywhere else is a bad idea. He's really good there because he doesn't give the ball up and he works pretty hard on both sides of the ball, and Neither his positioning nor his off the ball movement are laid out to bare.

He does not, however, play the types of passes I'm talking about. I genuinely don't see what your seeing at all. His passes are always, always, always the most obvious play he could make and are always very high percentage passes to guys who are in front of defenders. That's not the kind of play we need from a 10#. I honestly think his scoring issues are his third or fourth biggest problem, so I'm not too hung up about that. It's his horrible off ball movement and his lack of vision that are the biggest things holding his game back.

I've said all of this before so I'm kind of tired of reiterating it. Being good at 'link up play' is not the same thing as having the required qualities to play 10#. Osorio's good when he plays with multiple players in front of him who he can give the ball to to be creative. Outisde of that role he becomes a big liability. He's had his run now at the 10# and has shown that he definitely is not the answer. Let's move on from this.

[ag futbol]

to
to a lesser extent, sure. But all four midfielders have to be willing and able to do it to take the focus off Bradley. Teams still entirely key in on him when we have possession because Osorio/Endoh/Delgado aren't in form and refuse to push the ball into our forwards in dangerous areas. We can't play two of those guys at the same time. Cooper helps, but not enough to mask the problems created by the other guys.

I wouldn't say lesser - i'd say primarily. I appreciate that Bradley has some ability to hit longer accurate passes but in no way is the guy an attacking mid. A lot of his passing is pretty robotic. He often looks unwilling to attack space. Cooper actually sees between the lines and consistenly is a threat to beat his defender on the ball.

But I agree, other guys need to do more.

[Canary10]

Yeah, Osorio was really good last year when he was played deeper. I think that's what his best position in and playing him anywhere else is a bad idea. He's really good there because he doesn't give the ball up and he works pretty hard on both sides of the ball, and Neither his positioning nor his off the ball movement are laid out to bare.

He does not, however, play the types of passes I'm talking about. I genuinely don't see what your seeing at all. His passes are always, always, always the most obvious play he could make and are always very high percentage passes to guys who are in front of defenders. That's not the kind of play we need from a 10#. I honestly think his scoring issues are his third or fourth biggest problem, so I'm not too hung up about that. It's his horrible off ball movement and his lack of vision that are the biggest things holding his game back.

I've said all of this before so I'm kind of tired of reiterating it. Being good at 'link up play' is not the same thing as having the required qualities to play 10#. Osorio's good when he plays with multiple players in front of him who he can give the ball to to be creative. Outisde of that role he becomes a big liability. He's had his run now at the 10# and has shown that he definitely is not the answer. Let's move on from this.

Osorio has sent people in on goal multiple times. I've seen him play quite a few clever slide-rule balls in. Finishing hasn't always been there unfortunately. He's not going to be the Diaz kind of AM who can beat people and set up, but I think he's underrated for his ability to make the last clever pass.