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  1. #121
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    Can the hiring of Michelle Lissel be far behind? She left Global Winnipeg's weather slot not long ago.

    Life has been very different for the TFC media corps since she left those many years ago.

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    Kurt article with a lot of Manning quotes

    http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/16...t-a-team-in-to

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    Having/not having a team in Toronto is probably a sticking point in negotiations right now. I think this whole CPL is sustainable/viable premise rides on TV contract dollars, and without a team in Canada's largest Media Market, whatever network they are negotiating with is seeing that as a non-starter. I don't know if Hamilton is close enough. If they do go with a GTA team, maybe they can get away with calling them "Fort York Rangers" or something similar and have them play out of the Scarborough/Eastern York Region area. I my mind, the perfect spot would be out by the Pan-Am sports centre at Morningside and the 401 - there's enough space there to build a 8-10 seat stadium and it's right next to the UofT and Centennial College Scarborough campuses so they could also be used by those schools. It would also probably pull spectators from Pickering/Ajax/Whitby/Oshawa. Then again, as a secondary option, maybe they could place the team out by the UOIT in Oshawa but building a proper 5-8K stadium around Vaso's Field and call themselves the "Durham Bulls" or something. Or maybe by the entertainment area around Thickson and the 401 in Whitby.
    Last edited by Initial B; 02-17-2017 at 10:56 AM.

  4. #124
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    I found it odd why Manning felt the need to sound off on this right now, but considering what Initial says ^, likely the behind-the-scenes stuff has reached that point.

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    I think they should be careful with this CPL business. Look at how carefully the CFL operates, with the benefit of far more market breadth.

    Yes soccer is on the rise and quite popular in the 3 major markets but the drop off after that could not be more stark. People could lose a lot of money here, fragment the market, and hurt the game in general.

    Perhaps MLS's sheepishness about helping development of Canadians has caused some resentment? I agree more needs to be done but I don't think this is the way to do it.

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    MLSE is going to MLSE

    And CPL "we are big news" types will CPL

    The CPL will have a place in Toronto somewhere outside of the downtown (unless they play at Varsity somehow). MLSE won't like it. Lower league football will lurch on.

  7. #127
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    Are they going to try to compete with the MLS? I dont see how they can generate enough revenues to keep up with the MLS. Who will watch these games on TV? As for Toronto, this market only seems to support the best as proven by the argos and junior hockey. I dont get why they wouldnt just try and make this the AHL for the MLS

  8. #128
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    They won't try to compete

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    I would prefer to have a Toronto club that was independent of TFC and MLSE. If it's TFC3 I would feel like I'm going to watch development league. If it is a new entity I may still be watching a development level but it would somehow feel more meaningful, as if those games are the be all and end all for that club whereas if it's TFC 3 I'm thinking this is just to get some kids some minutes.

    i would gladly support 2 toronto teams, think it's a bit sad that TFC can feel threatened by a league where teams will draw under 10000.

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    I am all for this it has been needed. More foreigners know about unsanctioned CSL than NASL. Put the 'Toronto' team in Mississauga and get the NASL teams. There are reasonable enough markets elsewhere to reach 8-10 teams no problem.

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    Toronto/GTA is big enough market to have two pro soccer teams.

    MLS isn't top tier league, but yet they manage to do well in Toronto.

    All Canadian league will do more good for soccer in this country than MLS will ever do.

    This is why TFC/MLSE feel threatened because they know CPL has a chance to do well and eventually replace MLS in this country.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Toronto/GTA is big enough market to have two pro soccer teams.

    MLS isn't top tier league, but yet they manage to do well in Toronto.

    All Canadian league will do more good for soccer in this country than MLS will ever do.

    This is why TFC/MLSE feel threatened because they know CPL has a chance to do well and eventually replace MLS in this country.
    Yeah, just like a hypothetical NFL team in Toronto would feel threatened by a CFL team in Toronto.

    Uh, no!
    TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcoe15 View Post
    Yeah, just like a hypothetical NFL team in Toronto would feel threatened by a CFL team in Toronto.

    Uh, no!
    Difference is that MLS isn't view top tier or major league.

    MLS isn't world class league filled with best players in the world compare to other major sport leagues in North America.

    Plus, watching Canadians play and seeing two Canadian cities playing against each other will be more appealing to your average Canadian than watching a team filled with mostly American players playing against American cities. I wouldn't be surprise if CPL TV ratings do better than MLS in Canada.


    This is why TFC/MLSE feel threatened here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Difference is that MLS isn't view top tier or major league.

    MLS isn't world class league filled with best players in the world compare to other major sport leagues in North America.

    Plus, watching Canadians play and seeing two Canadian cities playing against each other will be more appealing to your average Canadian than watching a team filled with mostly American players playing against American cities. I wouldn't be surprise if CPL TV ratings do better than MLS in Canada.


    This is why TFC/MLSE feel threatened here.
    Comparing MLS to, say, the NFL is a bit silly.
    Because, well, nobody else in the world -- or at least very few nations -- play football, hockey, baseball and basketball.
    News flash: People want to watch Giovinco and Altidore. They don't want to watch Kyle Bekker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gringo Starr View Post
    I would prefer to have a Toronto club that was independent of TFC and MLSE. If it's TFC3 I would feel like I'm going to watch development league. If it is a new entity I may still be watching a development level but it would somehow feel more meaningful, as if those games are the be all and end all for that club whereas if it's TFC 3 I'm thinking this is just to get some kids some minutes.

    i would gladly support 2 toronto teams, think it's a bit sad that TFC can feel threatened by a league where teams will draw under 10000.

    I don't think TFC feels threatened. I think their ego might be getting bashed a bit seeing as it doesn't appear the CPL wants TFC II in its league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Plus, watching Canadians play and seeing two Canadian cities playing against each other will be more appealing to your average Canadian than watching a team filled with mostly American players playing against American cities. I wouldn't be surprise if CPL TV ratings do better than MLS in Canada.


    .
    Yeah.....uh....no.

    People in this country already won't watch MLS because they don't think it is good enough soccer for them. You seriously think teams running on maybe 1/3 of the salary cap of MLS teams are going to get more people watching because its Calgary vs Hamilton?

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    Ok where to start with this , this thing about MLS not being top tier, well it's top tier in Canada and the US, and it's the top tier for going to watch live soccer. Moreover, I hate to say this but I feel that Toronto sports fans find more of an appeal in playing the big American cities rather than having Regina or Edmonton come into town. Playing in a league where you can be champions of North America rather than just Canada has more appeal that's reality. This is one of the reasons I believe the CFL has lost so much appeal in Toronto. We may be part of Canada but we love taking on American cities in our sports. This is a big reason a Canadian only soccer league will not work in Toronto. I'm all for a Canadian league because it allows more playing time for Canadian players but to think that a team in Toronto will eventually overtake TFC in popularity it is not happening anytime soon, you need to understand Toronto and you will understand why it will not work.

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    This is typical MLSE defending their monopoly in Toronto - no other ownership group is allowed to offer a sporting event that MLSE already offers. That's why they're pushing to have this league as a development league - it will never draw viewers away from MLS.

    If I want to go out and start a soccer team why the F*** is MLSE given veto power over my decision!? If I lose money that's my problem. I truly don't understand this mentality that sports are so special they need monopolies. The GTHA has over 6.5m people there and it can't support more than one team per sport?! Pure garbage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfc View Post
    This is typical MLSE defending their monopoly in Toronto - no other ownership group is allowed to offer a sporting event that MLSE already offers. That's why they're pushing to have this league as a development league - it will never draw viewers away from MLS.

    If I want to go out and start a soccer team why the F*** is MLSE given veto power over my decision!? If I lose money that's my problem. I truly don't understand this mentality that sports are so special they need monopolies. The GTHA has over 6.5m people there and it can't support more than one team per sport?! Pure garbage.
    MLSE doesn't have a monopoly in Toronto. Not sure where you get that from. And you can start or run a pro sports team/league in Toronto without having to ask MLSE's approval.

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    CPL is going to come to Toronto. TFC would like it to be their team. CPL types don't want that. So said CPL Toronto team won't be at any venue MLSE controls (Downsview, the OSC, BMO or Lamport).

    Now, no CPL team locally is going to build a new stadium - they will do well to get 5K a game, lets be honest. Although there will be big TV (and Rollins hints there is big money behind all this), there isn't 10K spectator demand locally for what will be in reality a Div II team. So the dream of building a new 15K stadium just isn't practical here.

    Which leads to the question:

    what current venue in Toronto can hold a 5K crowd?

    Varsity (5K)
    Birchmount (2K)
    Centennial Park Stadium (2K)
    Esther Shiner (3K)

    So, Varsity but that has its own issues.

    All in all, I suspect that somebody wants to bring a team to Toronto but prefers Lamport (9k) - MLSE has the operations contract for that stadium so are unlikely to want a perceived competitor in that venue. Impasse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Yeah.....uh....no.

    People in this country already won't watch MLS because they don't think it is good enough soccer for them. You seriously think teams running on maybe 1/3 of the salary cap of MLS teams are going to get more people watching because its Calgary vs Hamilton?
    People will watch because their cities will be in the league unlike MLS which only popular in big 3 Canadian cities.

    Add that fact there will players that people can relate to and have ties to their community makes it easier to sell the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoccMan2 View Post
    Ok where to start with this , this thing about MLS not being top tier, well it's top tier in Canada and the US, and it's the top tier for going to watch live soccer. Moreover, I hate to say this but I feel that Toronto sports fans find more of an appeal in playing the big American cities rather than having Regina or Edmonton come into town. Playing in a league where you can be champions of North America rather than just Canada has more appeal that's reality. This is one of the reasons I believe the CFL has lost so much appeal in Toronto. We may be part of Canada but we love taking on American cities in our sports. This is a big reason a Canadian only soccer league will not work in Toronto. I'm all for a Canadian league because it allows more playing time for Canadian players but to think that a team in Toronto will eventually overtake TFC in popularity it is not happening anytime soon, you need to understand Toronto and you will understand why it will not work.
    Lol MLS being top tier Canada doesn't mean much those living outside 3 MLS cities.

    CPL will be Canada's top tier league because it's actually a Canadian league unlike MLS that is American League with Canadian guests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post
    Comparing MLS to, say, the NFL is a bit silly.
    Because, well, nobody else in the world -- or at least very few nations -- play football, hockey, baseball and basketball.
    News flash: People want to watch Giovinco and Altidore. They don't want to watch Kyle Bekker.
    People want to watch Messi and Ronaldo too. lol

    Reality is that CPL is going to happen and TFC and MLSE better step up their game to keep their customers happy or else you will see a drop in attendance in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    CPL is going to come to Toronto. TFC would like it to be their team. CPL types don't want that. So said CPL Toronto team won't be at any venue MLSE controls (Downsview, the OSC, BMO or Lamport).

    Now, no CPL team locally is going to build a new stadium - they will do well to get 5K a game, lets be honest. Although there will be big TV (and Rollins hints there is big money behind all this), there isn't 10K spectator demand locally for what will be in reality a Div II team. So the dream of building a new 15K stadium just isn't practical here.

    Which leads to the question:

    what current venue in Toronto can hold a 5K crowd?

    Varsity (5K)
    Birchmount (2K)
    Centennial Park Stadium (2K)
    Esther Shiner (3K)

    So, Varsity but that has its own issues.

    All in all, I suspect that somebody wants to bring a team to Toronto but prefers Lamport (9k) - MLSE has the operations contract for that stadium so are unlikely to want a perceived competitor in that venue. Impasse.
    Pan Am stadium at York would be a good choice. Only issue is the track around it. The CPL would likely go to the city who own Lamport to get a deal done like the Wolf Pack did.

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

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    No Stadiums with tracks equal's no Esther Shiner, no Birchmount, no Centennial, no Centennial, no York U, and definitely no Variety. It's Lamport or bust, or demolish and rebuild Esther Shiner, or Birchmount.

    Going to far West your competing not only with TFC, but the potential Hamilton and Kitchener teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    People will watch because their cities will be in the league unlike MLS which only popular in big 3 Canadian cities.

    Add that fact there will players that people can relate to and have ties to their community makes it easier to sell the league.
    Yeah....I grew up watching the OHL with all that and....still not going to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    People want to watch Messi and Ronaldo too. lol

    Reality is that CPL is going to happen and TFC and MLSE better step up their game to keep their customers happy or else you will see a drop in attendance in the future.
    Football fans absolutely want to watch Barcelona and Real Madrid (on TV). But, I'll remind you that 36,000 people at BMO Field and 1.5 million TV viewers for the playoffs were interested in watching TFC (without Messi). There's a threshold of quality that needs to be met for the football to be enjoyable. Will the CPL meet that threshold? I'm just giving you an honest take.

    Also, this nonsense I constantly read about MLSE "better step up their game" is mind-numbing. Short of giving away free tickets and providing everyone with free beer, what more do fans want than what was witnessed last season?

    And to your last point ....

    TFC hit rock bottom in 2010-11. Still averaged 18-20,000 a game. I'd say they're doing pretty well a decade into existence. But, again, that's just my take, as an outside observer in the media.

    I do wish the CPL all the best, though. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to be honest.
    Last edited by KurtLarSUN; 02-18-2017 at 06:05 PM.

  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post
    Football fans absolutely want to watch Barcelona and Real Madrid (on TV). But, I'll remind you that 36,000 people at BMO Field and 1.5 million TV viewers for the playoffs were interested in watching TFC (without Messi). There's a threshold of quality that needs to be met for the football to be enjoyable. Will the CPL meet that threshold? I'm just giving you an honest take.

    Also, this nonsense I constantly read about MLSE "better step up their game" is mind-numbing. Short of giving away free tickets and providing everyone with free beer, what more do fans want than what was witnessed last season?

    And to your last point ....

    TFC hit rock bottom in 2010-11. Still averaged 18-20,000 a game. I'd say they're doing pretty well a decade into existence. But, again, that's just my take, as an outside observer in the media.

    I do wish the CPL all the best, though. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to be honest.
    Teams in Edmonton and Calgary were routinely drawing 10,000 in 1979-80. So it can be done. But nowadays? Kurt is right, it requires a perception of top-tier product, something that at least competes with what people see on a gazillion channels from overseas.

    This COULD work with a Canadian league, as it works in many smaller domestic nations if they spent $5M-10M per roster per season. The demand is there for a QUALITY league. But...

    Two big issues intercede continually:

    1. The infrastructure to accompany/create that perception of quality does not exist in enough cities. You need medium market stadiums of 10,000-plus, but not half-empty CFL caverns where people are sixty yards from a plastic pitch with lines.

    2. Travel is expensive in Canada due to high airline fuel taxes and landing fees, although there have been models with regional divisions that have been discussed to minimize this, via extended road trips etc.

    A third is perhaps the biggest overarching issue/factor: The upfront investment and ongoing costs are in the tens of millions. Ask any NASL owner who has lost a few million per season for several seasons. That takes a huge commitment of financial investment and faith.

    I think it would be a wise one. The TV market for Championship/Ligue 1/Turkish LEague etc football is pretty fucking massive. Not everyone demands footie from only the top four leagues. We live in a cosmopolitan country; if local branding and club pride can put 35,000 in a stadium for CFL in Edmonton, Calgary and Saskatoon, then well-branded and WELL FUNDED soccer can put 15,000 - 20,000 in medium market stadiums as well.

    Believe it or not, at the time BMO was built the feds were considering a national soccer stadium program to create jobs, because they knew the real estate bubble was about to burst across NA and contribute to a recession.

    People look at past efforts as proof it won't work, but that's faulty logic; they've always been exactly what people WON'T stand for in a modern, cosmopolitan country: div. 3 or worse leagues full of uninspired play, poor game environments, and amateur club management/marketing. I know some of the players involved out west and I can assure you, the history of small club schuysters scamming investors for an easy money-loser in which to hide their own spending is considerable in Canada.

    The ONLY way the CPL will work long-term is if it's in every major city, with feeder clubs in small towns, and proper budgets. I'd say the minimum clubs should be expected to spend would be $3M US per season, and if they want to cap it at something just north of that, fine. But without good, international calibre players, it won't work. This isn't fucking Rainbow Country anymore; people have to stop confusing their own sense of love and security gained from being involved in the amateur and club game in Canada with what is required to make a product work in the larger marketplace.

  29. #149
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    CFL has tradition to help even though it's a secondary league, a CPL has no tradition and will face a hard climb similar to MLS in the late 90's. I hope the owners have deep pockets.

    There are odd things with the relationship between the CFL and the CPL. It will be interesting to see what actually develops.

    As far as the CPL being a threat to MLS, it is even less of a threat than the WHA was to the NHL, and the WHA had Gretzky and Messier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    ,,,,

    As far as the CPL being a threat to MLS, it is even less of a threat than the WHA was to the NHL, and the WHA had Gretzky and Messier.

    Actually, Gretzky, Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe and his sons - Messier was cut by Indy before the merger.

 

 

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