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  1. #151
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    Everyone looks at minor league and junior hockey and gets excited. But look at baseball, which is a hell of a lot further along up here than soccer is.

    There are hugely successful AAA baseball teams in MSAs that look a lot like CPL cities, eg Louisville, Oklahoma City, Sacramento, Columbus. So you'd think there would be a decent level of success of AAA baseball after 50 years of MLB in Canada. But every attempt (Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa) has been a dismal failure.

    (The one team that is kinda sorta a success is Winnipeg's independent league team, which is way below AAA)

    Canada is funny. I don't see how the CPL can work.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Everyone looks at minor league and junior hockey and gets excited. But look at baseball, which is a hell of a lot further along up here than soccer is.

    There are hugely successful AAA baseball teams in MSAs that look a lot like CPL cities, eg Louisville, Oklahoma City, Sacramento, Columbus. So you'd think there would be a decent level of success of AAA baseball after 50 years of MLB in Canada. But every attempt (Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa) has been a dismal failure.

    (The one team that is kinda sorta a success is Winnipeg's independent league team, which is way below AAA)

    Canada is funny. I don't see how the CPL can work.
    Difference between CPL and other minor leagues is that CSA and investors are promoting CPL as a top tier league not a feeder league for MLS.

    Given rumours that these investors have deep pockets and connection to get a TV deal, this will hurt MLS and TFC bottom line because CPL is getting piece of soccer money from sponsors while "stealing" domestic players from MLS.

    MLS isn't major league outside three Canadian MLS markets. MLS has shown no interest in adding more Canadian teams and make Canadians domestic for American MLS teams.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post
    Football fans absolutely want to watch Barcelona and Real Madrid (on TV). But, I'll remind you that 36,000 people at BMO Field and 1.5 million TV viewers for the playoffs were interested in watching TFC (without Messi). There's a threshold of quality that needs to be met for the football to be enjoyable. Will the CPL meet that threshold? I'm just giving you an honest take.

    Also, this nonsense I constantly read about MLSE "better step up their game" is mind-numbing. Short of giving away free tickets and providing everyone with free beer, what more do fans want than what was witnessed last season?

    And to your last point ....

    TFC hit rock bottom in 2010-11. Still averaged 18-20,000 a game. I'd say they're doing pretty well a decade into existence. But, again, that's just my take, as an outside observer in the media.

    I do wish the CPL all the best, though. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to be honest.
    You should re-read Manning's comments in your article. It is pretty clear that TFC see a Toronto CPL team a threat.

    There are questions, however, as to whether an all-Canadian league can survive without a club in its biggest market.

    “I told (Mitchell): ‘We’re interested in the league.’ But we’re very protective of Toronto. This is our market.

    “We want to be supportive of the CPL, but we don’t want to be competitive. That’s something we don’t want to do.”

    A second team in Toronto could be seen as a declaration of war against an MLS side that draws big crowds to BMO Field.
    It doesn't get more clear than that. TFC is afraid of Toronto CPL team if Manning is making such comments.

    Also thank you of pointing out TV numbers because during regular season, MLS was doing awful (50K viewers per game?).

    So there isn't much catching up for CPL (who will be on national TV).

  4. #154
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    You'd have to be fucking dumb as shit to think the Canadian Soccer Association - an outfit that couldn't find its own ass even if you put its hands on it - could create a premier soccer league that would be a threat to MLS and its three Canadian based teams
    TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcoe15 View Post
    You'd have to be fucking dumb as shit to think the Canadian Soccer Association - an outfit that couldn't find its own ass even if you put its hands on it - could create a premier soccer league that would be a threat to MLS and its three Canadian based teams
    Lol CSA is just soccer body, it's investors (like CFL) are behind this. CSA role is to govern and sanction soccer in Canada.

    If Canadian Premier League (doesn't have minor league tone to that name) isn't a threat to TFC and MLS then why we got Manning openly saying he doesn't want CPL in Toronto? It's because he see them a threat aka competition.

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    I rest my case.
    TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)

  7. #157
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    Anybody trying to argue that they can build a "top level" Canadian league without teams in the big three markets is dreaming in technocolour.

    For it's size, Canada is actually an unusually concentrated population distribution. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are about a third of the country.

    The outdoor weather in Canada often sucks 8-9 months a year.

    This has all been tried in baseball. Deep pockets, big stories, etc
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cana...aseball_League
    Last edited by ensco; 02-19-2017 at 08:35 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  8. #158
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    FC Toronto owned by MLSE .....FCT will play at York University old stadium and stadium will be refurbished This is my thinking.

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    East: FC Toronto, Hamilton Steelers, Ottawa Fury, Quebec City FC, Halifax County

    - 3 games within division Home and Away 3rd game alternating. West would visit East once alternating every year. Would cut costs for travelling

    West: Victoria Highlanders, Calgary Foothills, Edmonton FC, SC Regina, Winnipeg SC

    League runs from May to Aug with playoffs in Sept

  10. #160
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    Where are you getting this information from tfcmanu?

    Quote Originally Posted by tfcmanu View Post
    East: FC Toronto, Hamilton Steelers, Ottawa Fury, Quebec City FC, Halifax County

    - 3 games within division Home and Away 3rd game alternating. West would visit East once alternating every year. Would cut costs for travelling

    West: Victoria Highlanders, Calgary Foothills, Edmonton FC, SC Regina, Winnipeg SC

    League runs from May to Aug with playoffs in Sept

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Anybody trying to argue that they can build a "top level" Canadian league without teams in the big three markets is dreaming in technocolour.

    For it's size, Canada is actually an unusually concentrated population distribution. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are about a third of the country.

    The outdoor weather in Canada often sucks 8-9 months a year.

    This has all been tried in baseball. Deep pockets, big stories, etc
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cana...aseball_League
    If you read article, theres going to be a Toronto CPL team which is why Manning is attacking CPL.

    Also majority of CPL teams will be playing in CFL stadiums which capacity will be around 20K.

    Also there's a "major" European club that is interested in owning a CPL team (Probably they're one who will be owning Toronto CPL team).

    You can't compare soccer and baseball because business model and circumstances is different. Triple AAA baseball is baseball equivalent of USL while CPL is actually a league that wants to become top tier professional league in Canada. This is why they rejected TFC setting up their farm team in their league.

  12. #162
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    I've yet to see any business plan or anything firm regarding CPL other than rumours. Anyone got any info that's concrete?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    If you read article, theres going to be a Toronto CPL team which is why Manning is attacking CPL.
    To clarify, what I am saying is: regardless of whatever caused Manning to say something ... it is not credible that anyone would come into this market and go head-to-head with TFC/MLSE. Manning was just stating the obvious.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Stick View Post
    Where are you getting this information from tfcmanu?
    My Thinking

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    If you are looking for a CPL timeline, there's a good one right here.

    http://www.northernstartingeleven.co...-story-so-far/

    According to the TV market listings, they lump Toronto/Mississauga/Oakville/Hamilton as one market and Vancouver/Victoria as another market. They are planning a team for Victoria and Hamilton is where the Head Office of the League is going to be. Quebec City and Halifax want professional sports teams. I think the league could get by without a team in Montreal and Vancouver, but I think they need one for Toronto so there is a club the fans in the rest of the league can hate - the New York Cosmos of the CPL.

    As for minor league, as an Ottawa Fury SSH I can say that during its championship run the team was playing a very attractive style of soccer. The average attendance has gone up every year, starting with 3500 at Carleton University's field to the over 6 K they are getting now at TD Place. I think it's doable if they get the right infrastructure in place. And if they try and it fails, what have they really lost besides money?

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    I can't help but think that all these alleged CPL investors are a good eight years too late jumping on the soccer bandwagon. I'm not saying the country has reached peak-soccer capacity with regards to fans, but given how established the big three teams are along with Ottawa and Edmonton, I think it may be a bit of a struggle to find people willing to put money down on season tickets and whatnot for a team somewhere like Winnipeg or Regina where the CFL is also competing with them for local sport interest (and dollars).
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcoe15 View Post
    You'd have to be fucking dumb as shit to think the Canadian Soccer Association - an outfit that couldn't find its own ass even if you put its hands on it - could create a premier soccer league that would be a threat to MLS and its three Canadian based teams
    1000% This.

    The fact that there's CFL owners involved, playing in CFL stadiums (see MLS circa 1996), makes it much much worse.

  18. #168
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    Look, I'm as scornful of the CSA as anybody, but they've done a lot over the last ten years to improve the organization and pry it away from the Old Boys network and dysfunctionality of the past. I'm willing to give them a chance on this because the only other option is to watch the World Cup from the outside looking in for the rest of my lifetime. At least they're trying and we should support any chance to make the national team pool better.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza_55 View Post

    The fact that there's CFL owners involved, playing in CFL stadiums (see MLS circa 1996), makes it much much worse.
    The "wishful thinking" part of me wants a CPL to succeed. Seeing the CFL involved (using it as a means of filling empty stadium dates) does not inspire confidence.

    Being realistic, I agree with ensco that the best parallel is baseball, and minor league baseball has not succeeded here. It will take major cash-infusions to work, more than the CFL can give. As far as "competing" with MLS, well we can see how delusional the modern NASL was in thinking like that. MLS (including TFC) will see any attempts at competition as a threat, and will crush it. Not only the new NASL, but you only have to look at the history of the American Professional Soccer League (later swallowed up by USL) to see this.

    The only way for the CPL to succeed is to "play nice" and become a feeder league for MLS. Then, like the USL you get MLS money to grow with.

    If the CFL thinks that they can somehow eliminate MLS and replace it with a Canadian CFL-dominated league, even with CSA support, they are poorer at decision-making than I thought they were after their ill-advised "expansion" to the U.S.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 02-21-2017 at 10:46 AM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcoe15 View Post
    You'd have to be fucking dumb as shit to think the Canadian Soccer Association - an outfit that couldn't find its own ass even if you put its hands on it - could create a premier soccer league that would be a threat to MLS and its three Canadian based teams
    *mic drop* /thread.....

    Regardless of how the CSL or investors are "presenting" the league, fact is that if the league is missing teams in its 3 largest markets (where MLS teams already exist), its success will be an uphill battle, at best imo.....

    to me, Manning is putting on a good face to say that the CPL would be a threat to MLS.....I'd be surprised if he wasn't trying to hold in laughter while saying it.

    I'm all for promoting Canadian talent, but I don't know if this is the way to do it.

    Personally, I would initially present the league as a step below MLS.....AAA baseball level so to speak......good talent, but not a top level experience.
    Reason being is that in general, people aren't stupid...if the league is presented a top tier, but the experience is not that, people will run away......fast.
    Set it up as AAA style and give the league something to grow in to...especially if teams are in smaller cities across the country.

    Of course the ideal way to bring up Canadian talent is through MLS and making canucks like US players, but that rented mule has been beaten many times.....
    Last edited by TFC Tifoso; 02-21-2017 at 01:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The "wishful thinking" part of me wants a CPL to succeed. Seeing the CFL involved (using it as a means of filling empty stadium dates) does not inspire confidence.

    Being realistic, I agree with ensco that the best parallel is baseball, and minor league baseball has not succeeded here. It will take major cash-infusions to work, more than the CFL can give. As far as "competing" with MLS, well we can see how delusional the modern NASL was in thinking like that. MLS (including TFC) will see any attempts at competition as a threat, and will crush it. Not only the new NASL, but you only have to look at the history of the American Professional Soccer League (later swallowed up by USL) to see this.

    The only way for the CPL to succeed is to "play nice" and become a feeder league for MLS. Then, like the USL you get MLS money to grow with.

    If the CFL thinks that they can somehow eliminate MLS and replace it with a Canadian CFL-dominated league, even with CSA support, they are poorer at decision-making than I thought they were after their ill-advised "expansion" to the U.S.
    Why would the MLS and more importantly the three Canadian teams even view the CPL as competetion and get hostile towards them as they will have a completely different economic scale. In many ways I would compare this situation to Whales where the big clubs in the country play in the English system while there also is a Welsh Premier League. Now one big different between here and there is the georgraphy, which would absolutely raise costs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    Why would the MLS and more importantly the three Canadian teams even view the CPL as competetion and get hostile towards them as they will have a completely different economic scale. In many ways I would compare this situation to Whales where the big clubs in the country play in the English system while there also is a Welsh Premier League. Now one big different between here and there is the georgraphy, which would absolutely raise costs.
    Good question, but if you look at how MLS has tried to bankrupt the NASL it becomes obvious.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    One difference between NASL and CPL would be:

    MLS needs the current CONCACAF head honcho in order to get that World Cup here in 2026. And a viable CPL is necessary for that bid (given FIFA wants multi-country bids it seems). So everybody is going to play nice about the CPL.

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    Competition for fans/revenue will not happen. It's a non-issue. Not sure why a CPL team would want to handicap itself by playing in the city in the first place. Where competition might occur is for Canadian youth players. Another team in TFCs backyard, although great for development of youth in the GTA would compete with TFCs academy and could potentially have a negative effect on the quality coming up through the ranks of TFCs developmental system. I respect Manning for what he said. It's literally his job to protect TFCs brand and potential future assets. I don't believe it's his job however to really give a crap about developing youth for Canada, which is basically the expressed purpose of creating the CPL. I don't believe having TFC or a TFC affiliate will really lend any credibility to the league. I believe, it would in fact, undermine it. I don't believe a team in the city of Toronto should happen. Period.

    I would love to support the CPL. I think it's a great idea should it ever actually happen...something I'm still somewhat skeptical about based on the limited amount of info that's been forthcoming. This is an opportunity for the CSA to spread itself around the suburbs of the "big 3" major cities. The suburbs of Toronto, ie. Mississauga, Brampton...etc. are coming of age and are looking to develop a distinct identity of their own, completely separate of Toronto. Soccer would be a great way to help that process along in my opinion.

    Just my 2 cents.

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    Looks like it's a go...

    The Canadian Premier Soccer League announced Wednesday morning that its inaugural season will kick off in the spring of 2019.The new coast-to-coast professional league — with one of its founding teams in Hamilton — has also scored a coup in appointing David Clanachan as its first commissioner.
    The CPL will open some time in April 2019, likely with 10 teams, and continue play through October while wearing its maple leaf on its sleeve, and just about everywhere else.
    Other locales likely to have teams ready for 2019 are: Winnipeg, owned by the Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the CFL; the Ottawa Fury, which will play its second season in the American second tier USL in 2018; Halifax; the lower B.C. mainland and Saskatoon [

    But the list of serious candidates also includes Kitchener-Waterloo, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Quebec City, Moncton, Mississauga and a second GTA franchise in either Vaughan or York Township
    https://www.thespec.com/sports-story...tarts-in-2019/

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    Two GTA based teams? That will be amazing!

    Mississauga makes sense, but Vaughan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Two GTA based teams? That will be amazing!

    Mississauga makes sense, but Vaughan?
    Maybe at York University, stadium did get an upgrade for the Pan Am games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    Maybe at York University, stadium did get an upgrade for the Pan Am games.
    That's true.

    Anyway, this news is bad for TFC both on the field and off the field. You got Hamilton, Mississauga and potentially Vaughan in the same market place completing for soccer fans while TFC will end up losing some of their players who will make the jump to CPL (Mogan, Hamilton and few TFC 2 players).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    That's true.

    Anyway, this news is bad for TFC both on the field and off the field. You got Hamilton, Mississauga and potentially Vaughan in the same market place completing for soccer fans while TFC will end up losing some of their players who will make the jump to CPL (Mogan, Hamilton and few TFC 2 players).

    I read the salary for players is only going to be 40-60K. They will probably allow 1 or 2 players above that level, but I doubt TFCs roster (and future roster) will be impacted much.

    In the stands, it could have an effect. But I actually think this helps TFC promote themselves as the "big league" team and Toronto is a big league market.

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    Hamilton would be the 2nd GTA team.

 

 

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