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    Default MLSE (TFC) Involvement in CPL?

    From Kurt's article in Sun:

    NEW CANADIAN LEAGUE

    The Canadian Soccer Association (CSA) remains bullish about forming a new Canadian league to foster talent for Canada’s men’s national team.

    While details remain few and far between, it’s believed the CSA is targeting 2018 as its launch date.

    In the meantime, TFC president Bill Manning and MLSE chairman Larry Tanenbaum will meet with CSA officials, including president Victor Montagliani, later this month to discuss the proposed league.

    Toronto’s top brass told the Sun earlier this year they were largely in the dark as to how the so-called “Canadian Premier League” might impact Major League Soccer. But it appears they’re about to find out. “Opportunities for more Canadian players is something Toronto FC wants to support,” Manning told the Toronto Sun last week. “We just have to figure out how we can be involved.

    “Is it the right model? Is it some kind of hybrid with the USL? We want to have those conversations and be supportive of it. If the CPL is going to go forward, we want to be involved.”

    Additional CPL teams in Toronto and Hamilton have been rumoured. Proposed salary caps have been bandied. Yet, the CSA hasn’t provided much — if any — information.

    “I don’t want to create confusion in the market place,” Manning said. “I told Victor we want to be involved and want to be at the table when this league or division comes about.”

    Manning later added: “It’s not a competitor to MLS.”

    The question, though, is what the CSA wants it to be.

    Having MLS affiliation would undoubtedly give the CPL a minor-league feel.

    “If we can provide for our young players coming up and (TFC) can put a team in that league, we’re interested,” Manning added


    http://www.torontosun.com/2016/09/19...es-away-tfcs-x

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    This seems like a good thing to me. The whole Canadian inferiority thing is getting really tiring, there is nothing wrong with the CPL being akin to the USL when it starts out. In fact, I think that would be a great start. Call it Div1 still, but give it time to develop. The possibility of a lot of home town heroes will be enough of a draw if it's marketed right. Dropping the comparisons to other leagues would go along way to creating a positive buzz.
    Plus being from Niagara, it would bring me great joy to watch a Hamilton team routinely beat a Toronto team! LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamp Berg View Post
    This seems like a good thing to me. The whole Canadian inferiority thing is getting really tiring, there is nothing wrong with the CPL being akin to the USL when it starts out. In fact, I think that would be a great start. Call it Div1 still, but give it time to develop. The possibility of a lot of home town heroes will be enough of a draw if it's marketed right. Dropping the comparisons to other leagues would go along way to creating a positive buzz.
    Plus being from Niagara, it would bring me great joy to watch a Hamilton team routinely beat a Toronto team! LOL
    See this fascinates me.

    We're discussing this like Toronto can add teams to almost every league here. TFC(and the other 2 Canadian teams) I-III.

    The NA model is farm teams in smaller cities. With Kurts mention of NASL I'd site that just because Ottawa trades went one way down the "pyramid" I don't see why the partnership couldn't change over time. It only takes some consistency for stability and acceptance.

    Wherever they land on the relationship of PCL to the rest of the game in the country, I'm for seeing what happens. Trying to predict the future state of the game is fools play.

    Remember how people were happy with TFC Accies joining the CSL? I know I hoped for more from it. Like straightening out the league, for one.
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    I wonder if allowing a TFC II into the league would make it seem like a feeder/minor league. I think they are more likely to put a team in a suburb like Vaughan or Mississuaga than allowing a TFC II type team into the league.

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    What would happen if the CSA said now that Canada has its own league we feel it's only appropriate that all pro teams in this country play in it. Truth be told if they really wanted too they could do it.

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    What would happen if the CSA said now that Canada has its own league we feel it's only appropriate that all pro teams in this country play in it. Truth be told if they really wanted too they could do it.
    If Wales has been unable to keep Cardiff and Swansea - and even Newport from being in the Football League, I'm not sure CSA is going to be able to realistically pull the Canadian teams from MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    What would happen if the CSA said now that Canada has its own league we feel it's only appropriate that all pro teams in this country play in it. Truth be told if they really wanted too they could do it.
    The CSA would be stupid to do so and I hope that all 3 Canadian MLS teams would be smart enough to tell them to go fuck themselves if they did try and pull that bullshit.

    The CSA is still the same bumbling bunch of idiots that have failed time and time again to do anything significant with soccer in this country. I don't see any change that tells me they have matured as a federation and TBH I see the fate of this CPL going the same path that every other league in this country has gone - in the shitter.

    if the CSA were wise, they would bring in some real soccer business muscle to build this league - people who have a track record of building and sustaining a league from nothing.

    CPL will never be bigger than MLS. It's a small league, equivalent to USL at best. The economy isn't there to sustain it.

    The interest isn't there to fill stadiums to 30K+ per game - TBH I doubt they will get 15K per game. 5-10K stadiums at best.
    I don't see major networks picking it up, only cable access TV contracts - so essentially nothing in terms of TV revenue.

    Keeping all that in mind - it only works if it's a league where teams can be bussed around to games - the league won't be able to fly teams all over the country and house them in hotels. There is just no money for that shit.

    The CSA will need to be very fucking creative to pull this off - and I reiterate, they have done nothing in the past 40, 50, 60 years to prove they are capable pulling this off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    The CSA will need to be very fucking creative to pull this off - and I reiterate, they have done nothing in the past 40, 50, 60 years to prove they are capable pulling this off.
    We have a Canadian running CONCACAF. Never is an absolute I won't use for as long as his term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    We have a Canadian running CONCACAF. Never is an absolute I won't use for as long as his term.
    A Canadian running CONCACAF means nothing IMO. Still doesn't bring people to small town games, or gets them watching games on TV or gets big name sponsorships to support the league.

    IMO all this means is that we could see some seedy money come into the league to help sustain it for a year or two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    A Canadian running CONCACAF means nothing IMO. Still doesn't bring people to small town games, or gets them watching games on TV or gets big name sponsorships to support the league.

    IMO all this means is that we could see some seedy money come into the league to help sustain it for a year or two.
    It means, simply put, that change will be easier in this country.
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    Kurt

    what do you think of a proper futsal league once the CPL is in place.
    We really need to develop Cdn play on the ball, and we have the gym;s already set up to do it.
    Then ask ronaldinho to play a season lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post

    The interest isn't there to fill stadiums to 30K+ per game - TBH I doubt they will get 15K per game. 5-10K stadiums at best.
    I don't see major networks picking it up, only cable access TV contracts - so essentially nothing in terms of TV revenue.
    Any CPL would be at best a CFL to the NFL. Realistically, it won't even be that because there won't be the history, people will perceive it as very minor league. It doesn't matter if you sanction it as D1 if there isn't the money or the players.

    The Toronto Lynx topped out at 2,744 spectators per game in 1999. Bruno Hartrell and his wife lost a lot of money pursuing their passion.

    Given that TFC and TFC II will be the competition, I doubt that an unaffiliated team could even draw 3k, so a 5k stadium would be generous.

    The owner had better be prepared to lose a lot of money.

    More realistic would be to fold the Canadian NASL teams into the CPL. Add a few new teams from Hamilton and such. Either ignore Toronto, or have a TFC-sponsored team far away from Toronto (like the Marlies were to the Leafs when they were in St. John's Newfoundland).
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    What would happen if the CSA said now that Canada has its own league we feel it's only appropriate that all pro teams in this country play in it. Truth be told if they really wanted too they could do it.
    They couldn't do it without losing significant investment in the Canadian game and a lot of pull within CONCACAF. That and the investments by the 3 Canadian ownership groups and the owners of the stadiums would be significantly undercut - lawsuit heaven.


    Its not happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    What would happen if the CSA said now that Canada has its own league we feel it's only appropriate that all pro teams in this country play in it. Truth be told if they really wanted too they could do it.
    Legally no they couldn't do it. The lawsuit from MLS/VWFC/Impact/TFC would cost the CSA tens of millions and they still wouldn't be playing the CPL.

    The only possible way to do it would be to buy the 3 MLS clubs but that costs between $1b and $2b US which I'm not sure anyone in the CSA or any future CPL owners has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza_55 View Post
    Legally no they couldn't do it. The lawsuit from MLS/VWFC/Impact/TFC would cost the CSA tens of millions and they still wouldn't be playing the CPL.

    The only possible way to do it would be to buy the 3 MLS clubs but that costs between $1b and $2b US which I'm not sure anyone in the CSA or any future CPL owners has.
    Not sure about the $1-2B figure, but it should be noted in 2006, Toronto FC could've been had for the grand sum of $10 million!

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    Quote Originally Posted by spe18 View Post
    Not sure about the $1-2B figure, but it should be noted in 2006, Toronto FC could've been had for the grand sum of $10 million!
    It's not 2006 anymore and the latest Forbes valuation is $245m US. Let's say the CPL wants to try and remove all the Cdn MLS Teams in 2018. The cost to purchase the clubs and basically have them go bankrupt in the CPL is at least double their current value IMO. In TFC's case they still are obligated to pay to the BMO Field Upgrades, KIA Training Centre etc.....

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    cant allow it to be a reserve team where players come and go to the first team disrupting the CPLs team
    It will be silly to have TFCs team win the CPL and not go on to the Canadian champions league

    TFC2 so far isnt a great success if looked upon independently

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    I'm sure from a CSA point of view any team fielded by TFC would have to be completely independent, ie. players could not be transferred to other TFC teams without it being considered a real transaction like any other trade or acquisition. It would be suicide to try to fight it out with MLS right now, suicide.

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    What's the harm of allowing TFC II or TFC III to compete in this league?
    In my opinion, "optics" isn't a good enough excuse.
    MLSE has invested more in the Canadian player than any other entity in history. And now you're going to exclude them?
    I just don't get that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post
    What's the harm of allowing TFC II or TFC III to compete in this league?
    In my opinion, "optics" isn't a good enough excuse.
    MLSE has invested more in the Canadian player than any other entity in history. And now you're going to exclude them?
    I just don't get that.
    I don't think people have said exclude MLSE. Just that they don't want a reserve squad in the league. That won't bring in the punters.
    Last edited by nfitz; 09-20-2016 at 02:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post
    What's the harm of allowing TFC II or TFC III to compete in this league?
    In my opinion, "optics" isn't a good enough excuse.
    MLSE has invested more in the Canadian player than any other entity in history. And now you're going to exclude them?
    I just don't get that.
    I guess it would be like Chelsea being allowed to field their second team in the Scottish league. Optics do play a role, especially when trying to market/sell the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 105 View Post
    I guess it would be like Chelsea being allowed to field their second team in the Scottish league. Optics do play a role, especially when trying to market/sell the league.
    But we're talking about an extreme circumstance here.
    Listen, I'm just being honest when I say the CPL will be less publicized than the Wolfpack/Rock in Toronto.
    It's going to be a developmental league.
    I'm sully supportive of it. But am kind of perplexed by the romantic view some people have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post
    But we're talking about an extreme circumstance here.
    Listen, I'm just being honest when I say the CPL will be less publicized than the Wolfpack/Rock in Toronto.
    It's going to be a developmental league.
    I'm sully supportive of it. But am kind of perplexed by the romantic view some people have.
    I agree that as long as the big 3 are in the MLS, this league will be viewed as 2nd tier. It would be in the CPL's best interest to include MLSE because they have a lot of money and power, but the new franchise would have to be a separate entity not tied to TFC directly. But from MLSE's standpoint, why would they operate another team that competes with TFC? MLSE will be out if they can't field one of their reserve teams. But from everything I've read, the CPL isn't interested in fielding feeder teams.

    What eventually happens is I think the CPL finds another owner, the team is put in a suburb of Toronto and they try to attract 5-6K people initially. Which is what they will probably do with the Van/Mon markets as well.


    9 team league, like the CFL:

    Toronto Suburb
    Montreal Suburb
    Vancouver Suburb
    Ottawa
    Regina
    Edmonton
    Calgary
    Hamilton
    Winnipeg
    Last edited by 105; 09-20-2016 at 10:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 105 View Post
    I agree that as long as the big 3 are in the MLS, this league will be viewed as 2nd tier. It would be in the CPL's best interest to include MLSE because they have a lot of money and power, but the new franchise would have to be a separate entity not tied to TFC directly. But from MLSE's standpoint, why would they operate another team that competes with TFC? MLSE will be out if they can't field one of their reserve teams. But from everything I've read, the CPL isn't interested in fielding feeder teams.

    What eventually happens is I think the CPL finds another owner, the team is put in a suburb of Toronto and they try to attract 5-6K people initially. Which is what they will probably do with the Van/Mon markets as well.


    9 team league, like the CFL:

    Toronto Suburb
    Montreal Suburb
    Vancouver Suburb
    Ottawa
    Regina
    Edmonton
    Calgary
    Hamilton
    Winnipeg
    for Toronto id put it right at UofT if they can improve the seating, lots of visibility. make it cheap and have food trucks feed the hipsters with kids

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    9 team league, like the CFL:

    Toronto Suburb
    Montreal Suburb
    Vancouver Suburb
    Ottawa
    Regina
    Edmonton
    Calgary
    Hamilton
    Winnipeg[/QUOTE]


    Don't discount Halifax, Quebec City Mississauga, (as distinct from a Toronto suburb) or even the tri-cities of Kitchener, Waterloo and Cambridge. Mississauga has a population of over 3/4 of a million and the Tri-cities are almost half a million.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post
    But we're talking about an extreme circumstance here.
    Listen, I'm just being honest when I say the CPL will be less publicized than the Wolfpack/Rock in Toronto.
    It's going to be a developmental league.
    I'm sully supportive of it. But am kind of perplexed by the romantic view some people have.
    It's not a matter of being romantic, it's a matter of wanting the league to survive. It's fine if it's a developmental league like the Eredivisie, but you do not want the Canadian Public to look at the league as a minor league because it needs eyeballs on the TVs and bums in the seats if this has any hope of sustaining itself through the first decade. I think in the casual public's mind NASL is just another league at the moment, so if the CSA can get FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury to jump ship to this new league, that would give it instant credibility. But a Toronto (or York?) team would have to be seen as a seperate club from TFC so it would have to be under MLSE ownership.

    I'm really curious if the CSA is making a similar overture to Montreal and Vancouver. It seems like they could live without teams in those cities if they can get Victorian and Quebec City or board, but the GTA seems to be a must-have. I hear the CPL wants to play in stadiums that hold around 10,000 spectators. I think that's really ambitious at first. BMO field would be too big. You could probably put a team in at York University's new stadium, but I think that would be too close to TFC II. It would be better if they put a team out in Scarborough or Oshawa to spread out the footprint of the team, but there are no stadiums in that area that could hold that amount of people.

    The league should sell itself as Division 1 in Canada, but act as a development league for mostly Canadian talent with some Central American influence. If I were setting the rules for the CPL, I would put a salary cap of $1.2-1.5 million with teams allowed to take 1 designated player where only $150,000 of his salary counts against the cap. Teams would consist of 24-26 players with the first 20 players being counted under the cap. Team composition would have a maximum of 8 international players (including Americans as internationals) with the rest being Canadians. I would also make it a rule that at least two of the starters must be Canadian U-23s. In an 8 team league, that would mean there would be a minimum 24 canadian players playing each week, with 16 of them being U-23s. I think there is enough quality now that you could find 24 canadians to start and still manage to play decent-looking football. I would encourage getting players from Honduras, Costa Rica, Haiti, Panama, Guatemala and other CA and Carribean countries by enticing them with better salaries than they could get playing in their own country to raise the initial quality of the game.

    But I still think the only way this survives is to have a stable 8-10 year TV contract shared between TSN and Sportsnet that will offset low attendence for the first 5 years until the league becomes entrenched in the Canadian consciousness and start coming to the stadiums. It also needs to have a sponsorship with a Canadian Air Carrier to subsidize transportation costs, as that is what will kill teams, especially with a country the size of Canada.

    In my mind, a Fully Functional, healthy CPL would have 10 teams with a 26 game schedule:
    Western Conference: Victoria, FC Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatchewan, Winnipeg
    Eastern Conference: Hamilton, GTA, Ottawa, Quebec City, Moncton/Halifax
    Last edited by Initial B; 09-20-2016 at 11:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    It's not a matter of being romantic, it's a matter of wanting the league to survive. It's fine if it's a developmental league like the Eredivisie, but you do not want the Canadian Public to look at the league as a minor league because it needs eyeballs on the TVs and bums in the seats if this has any hope of sustaining itself through the first decade. I think in the casual public's mind NASL is just another league at the moment, so if the CSA can get FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury to jump ship to this new league, that would give it instant credibility. But a Toronto (or York?) team would have to be seen as a seperate club from TFC so it would have to be under MLSE ownership.

    I'm really curious if the CSA is making a similar overture to Montreal and Vancouver. It seems like they could live without teams in those cities if they can get Victorian and Quebec City or board, but the GTA seems to be a must-have. I hear the CPL wants to play in stadiums that hold around 10,000 spectators. I think that's really ambitious at first. BMO field would be too big. You could probably put a team in at York University's new stadium, but I think that would be too close to TFC II. It would be better if they put a team out in Scarborough or Oshawa to spread out the footprint of the team, but there are no stadiums in that area that could hold that amount of people.

    The league should sell itself as Division 1 in Canada, but act as a development league for mostly Canadian talent with some Central American influence. If I were setting the rules for the CPL, I would put a salary cap of $1.2-1.5 million with teams allowed to take 1 designated player where only $150,000 of his salary counts against the cap. Teams would consist of 24-26 players with the first 20 players being counted under the cap. Team composition would have a maximum of 8 international players (including Americans as internationals) with the rest being Canadians. I would also make it a rule that at least two of the starters must be Canadian U-23s. In an 8 team league, that would mean there would be a minimum 24 canadian players playing each week, with 16 of them being U-23s. I think there is enough quality now that you could find 24 canadians to start and still manage to play decent-looking football. I would encourage getting players from Honduras, Costa Rica, Haiti, Panama, Guatemala and other CA and Carribean countries by enticing them with better salaries than they could get playing in their own country to raise the initial quality of the game.

    But I still think the only way this survives is to have a stable 8-10 year TV contract shared between TSN and Sportsnet that will offset low attendence for the first 5 years until the league becomes entrenched in the Canadian consciousness and start coming to the stadiums. It also needs to have a sponsorship with a Canadian Air Carrier to subsidize transportation costs, as that is what will kill teams, especially with a country the size of Canada.
    Excellent post!

    Just curious to hear your thoughts, do you think another GTA team would be too much given Hamilton will be in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    ... It also needs to have a sponsorship with a Canadian Air Carrier to subsidize transportation costs, as that is what will kill teams, especially with a country the size of Canada.
    Wait a second...where did the current MLSE head honcho work again? Wasn't it for that airline with the name on a certain arena in town?

    Yeah, if I was Victor M I'd be maximising all the synergies I possibly could.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 105 View Post
    I guess it would be like Chelsea being allowed to field their second team in the Scottish league. Optics do play a role, especially when trying to market/sell the league.
    benfica and such field reserves in Div and I find it pretty silly. There's no incentive to win, just develop

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    Quote Originally Posted by C.Ronaldo View Post
    benfica and such field reserves in Div and I find it pretty silly. There's no incentive to win, just develop
    France. Multiple teams do it.

    Meh.

    Ask most of the rest of the world what they think of NA farm teams.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

 

 

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