Why is the TFC Academy not producing better quality players?
Doneil Henry is probably the best player to come out the academy. Babouli and Osario are ok but the academy needs to be producing better than ok players. Look at how much money MLSE has invested over the years in the academy and the results of their investments are definitely not very good. With all this time, effort and money invested where are the goods?
The biggest issue is that they have changed philosophy so often that it has hurt development. Most of the guys we are seeing came into the academy later in development cycle as 16+ year olds, the next wave through will be the real test of players who have been with the academy since the u12 ranks.
It doesn't help that we lose players like Petresso, Carriero, Borges etc to european academies.
Henry - sold to EPL
Morgan - bench MLS depth
Osorio - starting mid
Hamilton/Babouli - first tastes of mls action, generally stuck behind big $$ players
Osorio didn't really come through the TFC academy he was there very briefly after coming back from Uruguay before he got an invite to preseason camp.
I dont even think Jonathan qualifed as home grown player if I remember correctly.Originally Posted by Areathrasher
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Babouli came to TFC when he was 21, so he's not really an academy product either
Yep, none of these guys came through the youth ranks as we haven't really been a club with an established academy long enough for it to happen.
The academy should be stocking the USL team with a small percentage climbing to the senior squad. That's it.
Do we not remember when we didn't have a USL team? Academy players were rushed to jump a level and had unrealistic expectations put on them. Let's not return to that.
Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 06-01-2016 at 11:51 AM.
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I say give it a generation (10-15 years or so) of players to pass through.....I liken it to what we're seeing with the boom of Canadians now in NCAA/NBA......the "Vince Carter generation" who were able to watch a guy like him play in our city and the ability to finally be able to relate to a player/team in Canada....these players are now having an impact in college and the pros......I am hoping the same is currently happening to the young kids playing soccer now and how it relates to TFC.....
of course, there is a big difference in what goes in to coaching/resources at the NCAA level in comparison to a MLS/TFC academy level, but interest can hopefully drive its advancement, or make even more resources go towards it than what has already been given......
chapmans up here (not proven obviously)
manella is rready from what I can see
Edwards too
same with Roberts
We have guys ready for a chance
As Pint stated above an academy can not develop players when they come in at 15-16 years old, the players already have bad habits.
IIRC TFC introduced U9 last year or the year before, when those kids come of age to be signed you will see the quality of the academy.
Also, supposedly the kid who scored for TFCII on the weekend is the best and brightest talent in the academy at the moment
Hundal? scored professional goal at 16 years old so not too shabby. Keep an eye out for Luca Uccelo as well, kids got some skills.
Yes, Hundal, I know a few people connected to the club and they raved about him and his potential.
The academy has had a few players poached as well Petrasso is the only one I can think of off the top of my head
Petrasso and Carriero (may be spelling it wrong) both went to QPR at the same time, which i think is what made TFC jump to sign Hamilton to a pro contract at 17 or 18 years old.
Borges went to Heerenveen recently and as far as i recall was very highly thought of.
Ricardo Ferriera was also with TFC academy briefly before going to Portugal if i remember correctly
If the USL team was in place a few years ago then guys like Petrasso may have stuck around. There was no natural progression/step to bridge academy to MLS for the 17/18 years olds. Now there is.
Aleman, Carreiro. Teibert sort of.
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A few thoughts.
I think any real sucess or failures so far can't be blamed or attributed to TFC as the majority of players have joined around 15 or 16 years of age. This age is a little to late for TFC to have a major negative or positive impact.
I heard this stat on a podcast walking into work this morning but apparently there have only ever been 6 home grown players to play 100 or more MLS matches and two of them are TFC players.
I think one of the great disappointments was Nicholas Lindsay's career. I thought he had real promise when he joined the first team from the academy. I remember him playing in the final game against DCU at RFK one season (2010?) and he looked really good. I think TFC won 3-1. I went into that off season being really excited about getting to see him the following year for a full season but he had that accident and wrecked his knee.
To circle back to the OP, and what Pint said, 100% the turnover at TFC and philosophy changes have IMO greatly damaged where TFC is now with regards to youth development. And it's not just inside the academy but reputation within Ontario for parents/kids.
I ramble on about it probably too much, but the near exact comparison is Sigma who started their academy in 2007 and has had almost zero coaching turnover and kept the same philosophy. As well, they had two groups right off the start of 11yr olds and 14 yr olds. It's likely no coincidence that 11yr old group includes players such as Larin, Laryea, Awuah, etc ...
I think Pint also noted 14-16 is a bit late as players have already had a couple key years in development at that point and some of TFC's top prospects right now (Uccello, for example) joined at 14 IIRC. But that age group they did scoop up some of the best players in the province. However, a criticism would be that an academy shouldn't be about poaching top players from local clubs, but taking kids at 11 implementing a development path/roadmap/cycle and actually molding them into professional footballers - that is what Sigma does and IMO TFC has yet to do.
Babouli and Osorio were both developed elsewhere. They just jumped into TFC or TFC II at the last minute.
I wouldn't say this academy is a failure by any means but they could definitely improve. When you're competition, a pay-for-play outfit with some agency connections, is producing nearly as many MLS players you have to look at what could be done better.
Let's be open to the fact many guys we've brought in could still make it (Hamilton, for example). I think there is a bit of a dark period as well in and around the Mariner / Winter / Rongen years as all that turnover and strife did the setup absolutely no good.
Saying certain players developed elsewhere way oversimplifies the process because player development is so nuanced. I wouldn't blame the academy for a player fails to live up to potential when there's so many variables that make a good soccer pro like work habits, motivation and confidence, health and injury history, grassroots development, personal life problems. What we can say is that TFC had a positive influence on the development of Oso and Babouli in some way as well as Petrasso, Henry, Morgan and Teibert.
In the end, TFC's situation will improve for a number of reasons:
1) What they may not have in quality of player in their system like Sigma, they'll make up with sheer quantity by poaching from L1O.
2) The USL team will payoff significantly by the amount of players getting professional minutes.
3) Their recruitment policy for the first team will changing to only sign players that will prove themselves at the USL level.
4) The agreement with the Soccer Ontario will help sooth possible tensions with various clubs.
5) Hiring good people like Neely and Steven Caldwell.
This is all above and beyond the archaic yet still relied on process of signing college players.
Last edited by PopePouri; 06-06-2016 at 11:29 AM.
HAHAHA, Hiring two Scottish guys will improve TFC Academy, man you made my day with this statement.
Only way to improve academy development is to make TFC academy separate entity from 1st team turmoil and politics that we had with 1st team coaching stuff since day one,that slowed down processes of proper development. Focus for academy should be players development,not winning leagues.
Hire coaches outside of province,coaches without agendas and favoritism to their former clubs and rep teams,coaches with understanding that soccer is not boot the ball and chase it down,something you can see often if you watch Senior Academy playing in League 1,whose coach is Neely,go figure.
Stick with program,Sigma has decent success because they are running same strategy and development since day one, all teams are playing same system.Every January during winter break ,all Sigma coaches are in Europe for two weeks to learn and upgrade their knowledge,pick up new things in soccer development,etc
TFC USL team is made of TFC Academy players who are at US Colleges and back to TO for summer break,and few senior academy players,don't see how much that will help for development,when senior academy player sits on the bench ,while college players are playing.
When it comes to recruitment of younger ages,that's not easy,this is not an exact science and mistakes can be made,that's normal.
Where I see a big problem is, when TFC offers senior Academy players academy contracts only if those players sign with soccer agent that works with TFC,or better to say,an agent who has most of TFC players under his agency,and if you denied to sign with him,you are out of TFC future plans. I know this first hand,boy who already has agent and wanted to sign with TFC, but not with that agency,went from team cap. to bench and being played out of his position,game after game. I'm sure first chance to jump oversees,this player is gone, like many other mentioned in previous posts.
TFC went with an international for the Academy Director position with Laurent Guyot who was coaching Frances U-16 team before coming here.
It appeared to be a good hire at the time but I'm not overly familiar with the development side of the game.
Haven't heard much if anything about him since he arrived.
HAHAHA, Hiring two Scottish guys will improve TFC Academy
Only way to improve academy development is to make TFC academy separate entity from 1st team turmoil and politics that we had with 1st team coaching stuff since day one,that slowed down processes of proper development. Focus for academy should be players development,not winning leagues.
Hire coaches outside of province,coaches without agendas and favoritism to their former clubs and rep teams,coaches with understanding that soccer is not boot the ball and chase it down,something you can see often if you watch Senior Academy playing in League 1,whose coach is Neely,go figure.
Stick with program,Sigma has decent success because they are running same strategy and development since day one, all teams are playing same system.Every January during winter break ,all Sigma coaches are in Europe for two weeks to learn and upgrade their knowledge,pick up new things in soccer development,etc
TFC USL team is made of TFC Academy players who are at US Colleges and back to TO for summer break,and few senior academy players,don't see how much that will help for development,when senior academy player sits on the bench ,while college players are playing.
When it comes to recruitment of younger ages,that's not easy,this is not an exact science and mistakes can be made,that's normal.
Where I see a big problem is, when TFC offers senior Academy players academy contracts only if those players sign with soccer agent that works with TFC,or better to say,an agent who has most of TFC players under his agency,and if you denied to sign with him,you are out of TFC future plans. I know this first hand,boy who already has agent and wanted to sign with TFC, but not with that agency,went from team cap. to bench and being played out of his position,game after game. I'm sure first chance to jump oversees,this player is gone, like many other mentioned in previous posts.
....
Last edited by molenshtain; 06-07-2016 at 08:00 AM. Reason: wrong thing.
I can't believe this shit is still happening!
Where I see a big problem is, when TFC offers senior Academy players academy contracts only if those players sign with soccer agent that works with TFC,or better to say,an agent who has most of TFC players under his agency,and if you denied to sign with him,you are out of TFC future plans. I know this first hand,boy who already has agent and wanted to sign with TFC, but not with that agency,went from team cap. to bench and being played out of his position,game after game. I'm sure first chance to jump oversees,this player is gone, like many other mentioned in previous posts.
I don't think it does^^
If there are guys on the team who were signed under those circumstances, they were signed before Bez/Leiweke/Manning/Vanney came.
Anybody know how the RSL academy was in the Manning times for those sort of shenanigans?
How old is the Academy? A few years? Yeah, there's just not enough time for this discussion IMO. Get back to me in 15 years for a real sample size I'd say.
I can't believe this shit is still happening!
Where I see a big problem is, when TFC offers senior Academy players academy contracts only if those players sign with soccer agent that works with TFC,or better to say,an agent who has most of TFC players under his agency,and if you denied to sign with him,you are out of TFC future plans. I know this first hand,boy who already has agent and wanted to sign with TFC, but not with that agency,went from team cap. to bench and being played out of his position,game after game. I'm sure first chance to jump oversees,this player is gone, like many other mentioned in previous posts.
It still does,it happened few months ago,I know parents and the boy for many years,he use to play with my son. I just don't want to go into details,last thing I need is someone from TFC to read this and retaliate,boy and parents wanted to sign,but not with agent.
One player that decided to sign with this agent is now with TFC USL team,other one demoted ,even-thought both of them are U 1? national team players, demoted one now will leave for Europe because TFC made it clear,sign with this agent and contract is waiting for you.
Agent is well know for many of us who are here from day one, Barry MacLean,former CEO of both Santio Sports + Entertainment and First Wave Sports Marketing,now President of Beswicks Sports North America ,he is still heavily involved in with TFC.
And lets make one thing clear,this is normal in the world of soccer,this is happening all over the world,players agents are running and ruining clubs,why should TFC be any different?
Fair enough^^
My understanding of the situation was that a lot of the shitty practices such as these that were rampant from Johnstone through Payne were eradicated for the most part when new management came in. I know for sure that they've done a lot of much needed community outreach and bridge building with key figures and clubs they'd previously shunned for whatever stupid reason. It's too bad this stuff still happens though.
Sickening.
I guess the Toronto media that reports on TFC won't cover this issue with a 10 foot pole.
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