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  1. #1861
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Doyle just pointed out.

    We played 4 different formations in the second half of this game & the team didn't skip a beat defensively.

    4-4-2, 5-3-2, 5-4-1 & a 4-2-3-1


    People...in this league...this is unheard of.

    We were crud for a long time, and the high line was a mistake. But nobody adjusts better then Vanney in this league & nobody has come close to training their team to adjust like that in this league.

    Anybody who thinks there is somebody else that can do that just does not get how spoiled we are by that capability in this staff & in this team.
    Don't tell the USMNT heirarchy. They still think they got the best tactician available in their exhaustive 18 month worldwide search for a new manager.

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    I just wanted to remind everyone that Gregory van der Weil thought Vanney wasn't cultivating a culture of winning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    I just wanted to remind everyone that Gregory van der Weil thought Vanney wasn't cultivating a culture of winning.
    And where's he at now?

    That's all you need to know about him. Now he has all the time in the world to stare at the clouds instead of doing it for 90 minutes 34 times a year for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    I love what Vanney has done in the playoffs.

    But I got to comment on his post game interview. I did not like that he talked about us not being good, and Atlanta playing better. We gave too many chances early, but then we played just as we needed to organized, and gritty. I understand that he is "ideological" about how the game should look, and it is good that he has a vision. But the first priority should be winning. AND it clearly has been for him, and he has delivered. But I think that is why it took so long to address some of our defensive deficiencies.

    But I do believe in him, and will be willing to support his vision for some time.
    What he said was that the game, perhaps, didn't quite play out the way he might've drawn it up—that, statistically, we likely didn't win any categories, hence, from a soccer[-purist's] perspective, we didn't have our best game. He concedes that, as a coach, you're never 100% satisfied, and so, inevitably, he'll find areas where we can improve on

    He went on to say we thoroughly deserved the result and that the boys did brilliantly, on the night, as far as managing the game were concerned.

    Obviously paraphrasing, but I think his comments were fair, taking into account the line of questioning.

  5. #1865
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    It has been argued that TFC's win in 2017 was just due to having Giovinco and co. The fact that TFC has made it to the 2019 MLS Cup while missing two key players has to be credited (at least in a major part) to Greg Vanney.

    This article had some real nuggets:

    https://torontosun.com/sports/soccer...sen-to-the-top

    He's grown as a coach, even this year, recognizing his weaknesses:

    When asked this week what he has learned as a coach during his time in Toronto, Vanney said: “Working to adapt and being more pragmatic at times and less ideological at times, but also understanding why and when pragmatism is more important.
    Several of us had noticed that weakness.

    We'd wondered how the players feel about him, but DeLeon said:

    “Greg is an unbelievable coach,” TFC midfielder Nick DeLeon said. “He’s a student of the game. He’s a tactician. He’s all about trying to get guys in the rights spots to impact the game the best way they can. It’s really been a unique experience for me to have a coach like that.”
    “I’ve got nothing but good things to say about Greg,” DeLeon said. “It’s been a pleasure to play for him. A lot of these guys have been with him for years and I think he’s got a big part to do with TFC being here (in the MLS Cup final) three years in four.”
    However, even if TFC wins a second MLS Cup, I'm pretty sure that some #vanneyout sentiment will still be around, just waiting for a losing streak to start up again.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-04-2019 at 09:15 AM.

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    That Sun article was derived from the 22 minute interview he did on Saturday

    https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2019/1...?autoplay=true

    If you want to get a handle on Vanney, that's a pretty good primer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    It has been argued that TFC's win in 2017 was just due to having Giovinco and co. The fact that TFC has made it to the 2019 MLS Cup while missing two key players has to be credited (at least in a major part) to Greg Vanney.

    This article had some real nuggets:

    https://torontosun.com/sports/soccer...sen-to-the-top

    He's grown as a coach, even this year, recognizing his weaknesses:


    Several of us had noticed that weakness.

    We'd wondered how the players feel about him, but DeLeon said:

    However, even if TFC wins a second MLS Cup, I'm pretty sure that some #vanneyout sentiment will still be around, just waiting for a losing streak to start up again.
    My first post on this thread - long time coming! Regarding DeLeon, I believe he's the son of a guy who Vanney played with, and Vanney knew him from when he was younger and really wanted to get him on TFC? So with respect to his comments something to take into account. Still nice to hear his high praise though!

    Personally I think Vanney's done pretty amazing over the past half decade to improve and adapt. When you consider the improvements to the league each year, the level of parity, change in upper management, etc., it's not bad at all to be in 3 finals in 4 years. Theyway we adjusted tactically in ATL was a great example of how we've become more resilient and have a deeper squad, both going forward and defending. The view we had in section 229 at the Mercedes was perfect to see formations and adjustments. After the early onslaught we didn't leave much room over the top after that. And the subs worked out perfectly.

    Happy to have Vanney around for a couple more years! Until the league structure and CBA allow for more investment in the squads I'd rather have stability and consistency year-to-year, and for me Vanney's shown he has that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ochos View Post
    My first post on this thread - long time coming! Regarding DeLeon, I believe he's the son of a guy who Vanney played with, and Vanney knew him from when he was younger and really wanted to get him on TFC? So with respect to his comments something to take into account. Still nice to hear his high praise though!

    Personally I think Vanney's done pretty amazing over the past half decade to improve and adapt. When you consider the improvements to the league each year, the level of parity, change in upper management, etc., it's not bad at all to be in 3 finals in 4 years. Theyway we adjusted tactically in ATL was a great example of how we've become more resilient and have a deeper squad, both going forward and defending. The view we had in section 229 at the Mercedes was perfect to see formations and adjustments. After the early onslaught we didn't leave much room over the top after that. And the subs worked out perfectly.

    Happy to have Vanney around for a couple more years! Until the league structure and CBA allow for more investment in the squads I'd rather have stability and consistency year-to-year, and for me Vanney's shown he has that.
    DeLeon has had a career year, and IMO, has been a valuable member of the team similar to what guys like Will Johnson, Armando Cooper and even Benoit Cheyrou were a couple years ago. When he comes on, you know he was going to do something positive more often than not. I think Vanney has had a lot to do with that transformation in his game.

    People knock Vanney for nepotism with Zavaleta - but if you look at our situation over the past few years - playing Zavaleta was a last resort as oppose to a first or even second choice. Look at where he is in the pecking order now - not even an option off the bench.

    i don't think nepotism is at play with DeLeon - not that you said it - but just saying I don't think it's even at play in this situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ochos View Post
    My first post on this thread - long time coming! Regarding DeLeon, I believe he's the son of a guy who Vanney played with, and Vanney knew him from when he was younger and really wanted to get him on TFC? So with respect to his comments something to take into account. Still nice to hear his high praise though!
    Nick's father, Leroy, played his last professional game in 1983, with Greg's first pro game coming in 1995. The Athletic profile of Nick DeLeon had mentioned Vanney and Nick both played on the same youth team (at very different times), but that they had not met each other through that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ochos View Post
    Regarding DeLeon, I believe he's the son of a guy who Vanney played with, and Vanney knew him from when he was younger and really wanted to get him on TFC? So with respect to his comments something to take into account.
    Completely untrue.

    Leroy DeLeon (Nick's father) retired in 1983, a full 12 years before Greg Vanney even started his pro career as a player. He never played for any professional team that Vanney played for either (he played for several original NASL teams - the only one with links to a current MLS team was the NASL Seattle Sounders, and finished his career playing indoors).

    Greg Vanney knew Nick DeLeon through scouting, plain and simple. He realized that Nick was miscast in his position and that he could be retrained in a new one. This has gained TFC an inexpensive but very useful asset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    I just wanted to remind everyone that Gregory van der Weil thought Vanney wasn't cultivating a culture of winning.
    I had a laugh when he initially said this as well. To the extent that was true, it was probably because the team had VDW on it.

    I think this recent run has done more for my impression of Vanney than other prior seasons. I don’t think we’re a top 3 team talent wise but we’ve found ways to win as a group. This is more of a ringing endorsement of the coach than a championship run with a roster containing quite a few superstars.

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    Best I can tell, the one flaw we have had all year is conceding late. This cost us something like 15-18 points in the regular season, if we had even half of those points at year end we would have been an elite regular season team. (Flip side of that is, we have been scoring late too. Not just in the playoffs either.)

    We are still showing this weakness with the lead in the playoffs (DCU got us, Atlanta came damn close).

    I have been a solidly Vanney in guy since mid 2016, but I find this whole thing impossible to explain.... I don’t credit Vanney that much for it, I think it is a bit random, in truth. It's a cruel sport, as we know but Atlanta and LAFC are learning.

    It's probably our battle tested players who are gutting out results, way more than Vanney and all this overwrought breathless formation talk.

    I credit Manning and Curtis for standing pat, as much or more than I credit Vanney, for this run - to the extent you can credit anyone not on the field. They could have blown it up this past summer, and most of us would have understood it.

    But it doesn’t matter. The players will play for Greg, and it's a results oriented business!
    Last edited by ensco; 11-05-2019 at 06:37 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  13. #1873
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    ^I agree with all of your post, especially the good point about conceding late, except for this one point, which seems overstated:

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post

    It's probably our battle tested players who are gutting out results, way more than Vanney and all this overwrought breathless formation talk.
    The players in any team do play a big role, bigger than any coach (I think that may have been your point). HOWEVER, the teams TFC took out were packed with "battle tested" players. Atlanta for sure had the better roster, as did NYCFC. It was pretty clear too how the formation changes significantly affected Atlanta's ability to attack. The key "battle tested" players certainly weren't any more motivated after the changes than they were at the start. The big change was in the formation.

    "He’s a tactician. He’s all about trying to get guys in the rights spots to impact the game the best way they can. It’s really been a unique experience for me to have a coach like that.”
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-05-2019 at 08:39 AM.

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    This isn’t a complicated point. It's about experience in knockout competitions with everything on the line, on a big stage, and not letting the pressure get to you. NYCFC and Atlanta had big players who succumbed to the size of the spotlight. We didn't. That is why we won.

    I am not going to do the math, but if I were doing the cumulative big game “knockout format” games played by players in the playoffs, (ie previous MLS playoffs, Canadian championship finals or US Open Cup semis and up, Concacaf CL, Euro CL or Europa League, Copa Libertadores, World Cup qualifying games)... we had 7 starters in these playoff games with at least 15 games like that. Guys like Ciman and Bradley have 50+games like that. (Jozy and Omar would have made it 9 players on this list.)

    NYCFC: they had nobody with this level of experience ex Moralez... Mitrica was invisible. Same for Heber (maybe because he was hurt, I get that). Matarrita is exhibit A, very nice player, wilted in a key moment.

    Atlanta: they had a few, but not really the key guys, except for Pity. Their list is Pity Martinez, Guzan, Parkhurst, maybe Laurentowicz, maybe Gonzalez Pirez, and that's it. Just like Matarrita, you saw “big” players like Gressel completely spit the bit when it mattered in the Conference final. Josef Martinez had not played much, or really done anything, on a bigger stage pre MLS.... and he was not a big factor last Wednesday night.

    Now for the bad news: Seattle has at least 5-6 of their best guys with real experience in these games, so there is no big edge for us on that score Sunday.
    Last edited by ensco; 11-05-2019 at 09:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post

    Now for the bad news: Seattle has at least 5-6 of their best guys with real experience in these games, so there is no big edge for us on that score Sunday.
    Already in the US and no one (very, very few) are giving us any chance in any way. it is a little odd being such an underdog but wasn't Atlanta guaranteed to beat us.

    One more boys!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    This isn’t a complicated point. It's about experience in knockout competitions with everything on the line, on a big stage, and not letting the pressure get to you. NYCFC and Atlanta had big players who succumbed to the size of the spotlight. We didn't. That is why we won.

    I am not going to do the math, but if I were doing the cumulative big game “knockout format” games played by players in the playoffs, (ie previous MLS playoffs, Canadian championship finals or US Open Cup semis and up, Concacaf CL, Euro CL or Europa League, Copa Libertadores, World Cup qualifying games)... we had 7 starters in these playoff games with at least 15 games like that. Guys like Ciman and Bradley have 50+games like that. (Jozy and Omar would have made it 9 players on this list.)

    NYCFC: they had nobody with this level of experience ex Moralez... Mitrica was invisible. Same for Heber (maybe because he was hurt, I get that). Matarrita is exhibit A, very nice player, wilted in a key moment.

    Atlanta: they had a few, but not really the key guys, except for Pity. Their list is Pity Martinez, Guzan, Parkhurst, maybe Laurentowicz, maybe Gonzalez Pirez, and that's it. Just like Matarrita, you saw “big” players like Gressel completely spit the bit when it mattered in the Conference final. Josef Martinez had not played much, or really done anything, on a bigger stage pre MLS.... and he was not a big factor last Wednesday night.

    Now for the bad news: Seattle has at least 5-6 of their best guys with real experience in these games, so there is no big edge for us on that score Sunday.
    It still doesn't explain how our players played better after the change in formation. They were the same "big game" players both before AND after the change.

    You have a point that 7 vs 5 players for Atlanta with 15+ big games may have had an effect too, although nobody gave TFC the edge. That's because the entire roster of Atlanta is strong, and one of our "big game" players (Ciman) is prone to errors.

    So my point is don't over-discount coaching, it had an effect, a significant effect that was visible during the game. That is why most analysts are giving Vanney credit for the win.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-05-2019 at 10:27 AM.


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    Seattle were bigger underdogs against LAFC than we were against Atlanta.

    The inevitability of the coronation .... wasn’t that how the narrative went for LAFC before last week?
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Completely untrue.

    Leroy DeLeon (Nick's father) retired in 1983, a full 12 years before Greg Vanney even started his pro career as a player. He never played for any professional team that Vanney played for either (he played for several original NASL teams - the only one with links to a current MLS team was the NASL Seattle Sounders, and finished his career playing indoors).

    Greg Vanney knew Nick DeLeon through scouting, plain and simple. He realized that Nick was miscast in his position and that he could be retrained in a new one. This has gained TFC an inexpensive but very useful asset.
    I am sure I read/heard something about there being a connection. Maybe DeLeon's father coached Vanney? Did a quick search but didn't see anything yet. If anyone recalls please share!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ochos View Post
    I am sure I read/heard something about there being a connection. Maybe DeLeon's father coached Vanney? Did a quick search but didn't see anything yet. If anyone recalls please share!
    Vanney grew up in the Phoenix area, same as Nick, and played in the same youth club system. I believe Greg still spends off seasons in Arizona.

    I don’t have time to look, but Vanney has answered this. He heard about Nick while Nick was moving through the Phoenix youth system as a teenager, but didn’t know him, it's really Nick's MLS resume that attracted him.

    The reason why I remember this is because Vanney specifically referenced DeLeon being a major part of a US Open Cup winner in DC. This connects to my point about the type of player we have.

    TFC seek guys with knockout tournament pedigree. It's an interesting and under reported part of Manning's talent philosophy.
    Last edited by ensco; 11-05-2019 at 11:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post

    The inevitability of the coronation .... wasn’t that how the narrative went for LAFC before last week?
    Only to people who haven't been closely watching LAFC for a while. I called that result right away and won that bet nicely.

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    Only one player on the entire roster for TFC is "top 5" for his position, and that's Pozuelo.

    As far as depth goes, no TFC players were chosen in the expansion draft.

    Jozy was injured all of the playoffs except for the final.

    The secret to TFC is not individual excellence, rather it is how well the team plays together. Part of that is stability, for sure, but a huge part of it is coaching.

    Again this highlights how Vanney took a roster that wasn't one of the top rosters in MLS (despite a couple of very overpaid players in there) to the MLS Cup final. I'm still stunned by that achievement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Only one player on the entire roster for TFC is "top 5" for his position, and that's Pozuelo.

    As far as depth goes, no TFC players were chosen in the expansion draft.

    Jozy was injured all of the playoffs except for the final.

    The secret to TFC is not individual excellence, rather it is how well the team plays together. Part of that is stability, for sure, but a huge part of it is coaching.

    Again this highlights how Vanney took a roster that wasn't one of the top rosters in MLS (despite a couple of very overpaid players in there) to the MLS Cup final. I'm still stunned by that achievement.
    Bradley is a top 5 dm. Auro is a top 5 rb. Omar might be a top 5 cb. Jozy if healthy is top 5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    Bradley is a top 5 dm. Auro is a top 5 rb. Omar might be a top 5 cb. Jozy if healthy is top 5.
    We're all homers (me included) so we tend to favour our guys. More objective ratings say otherwise.
    Bradley was top 5 in 2016-2017, not now. Auro top 5? There are a number better than him. Omar is considered "error prone." Jozy is not healthy and hasn't been for the last 2 years.

    For one example, here's Bobby Warshaw's listing from 2018. You'll note that none of our guys even made the list, except for Seba:

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/...ition-mls-2018
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-20-2019 at 11:46 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The secret to TFC is not individual excellence, rather it is how well the team plays together. Part of that is stability, for sure, but a huge part of it is coaching.

    Again this highlights how Vanney took a roster that wasn't one of the top rosters in MLS (despite a couple of very overpaid players in there) to the MLS Cup final. I'm still stunned by that achievement.
    I was going to point this out on the expansion draft thread but you're 100% right. Sign of a great manager is getting more from less. With great rosters you expect them to pull through even with a sketchy manager like Atlanta & DeBoer but getting a group of players who are honestly all individually average (or worse) and still make the team successful is what proper managing is all about. Vanney has proven this and yeah our DPs are expensive and it drives up our total payrole but Vanney is getting a lot from the meat of the roster and the bench.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Only one player on the entire roster for TFC is "top 5" for his position, and that's Pozuelo.

    Again this highlights how Vanney took a roster that wasn't one of the top rosters in MLS (despite a couple of very overpaid players in there) to the MLS Cup final. I'm still stunned by that achievement.
    So I wanted to check with your assumption and used two websites to do some comparing.

    https://mlsplayers.org/resources/salary-guide (for individual player salaries)

    https://www.spotrac.com/mls/ (team salaries)

    I added up team salaries with and without DP wages. TFC is still one of the highest paid teams with teams like Seattle, Philadelphia and NY Red Bulls all below them with and without the DPs, so your argument doesn't really hold salt. LAFC & Atlanta pretty close but just slightly higher (Team Salaries less DP salaries).

    This team had the quality and will have it again next year. Vanney is good/very good but to suggest he is the MLS GOAT is an overstatement and that has been my argument all the time. He has been given the tools....now win us the second one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    We're all homers (me included) so we tend to favour our guys. More objective ratings say otherwise.
    Bradley was top 5 in 2016-2017, not now. Auro top 5? There are a number better than him. Omar is considered "error prone." Jozy is not healthy and hasn't been for the last 2 years.

    For one example, here's Bobby Warshaw's listing from 2018. You'll note that none of our guys even made the list, except for Seba:

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/...ition-mls-2018
    Auro made all mls 11 for the one of the indexes. He was also third on whoscored for tfc. Mls doesnt have great fyllbacks so the bar isnt very high.

    How is bradley not a top 5 defensive mid?

    Theres no way tfc a team who made the finals only had one top 5 player.

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    For those who think Vanney is a bad manager, I suggest having an in depth look at the managers in the rest of the league. I did a deep dive like that back before 2017 and it was enlightening.

    e.g. Adrian Heath is now above average - mostly because he now has players he likes

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    For those who think Vanney is a bad manager, I suggest having an in depth look at the managers in the rest of the league. I did a deep dive like that back before 2017 and it was enlightening.

    e.g. Adrian Heath is now above average - mostly because he now has players he likes
    Completely and totally missing what we are saying.... clearly the players like him (which is paramount), ask Babs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    Completely and totally missing what we are saying.... clearly the players like him (which is paramount), ask Babs

    I didn't quote anybody - I was adding to the general conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    Bradley is a top 5 dm. Auro is a top 5 rb. Omar might be a top 5 cb. Jozy if healthy is top 5.
    Bradley is barely top 10 now but more objectively top 15. Omar is nowhere close to top 5. He may have been top 5 years ago with the Galaxy. I'll grant you Jozy IF he was always healthy but you are absolutely reaching with Auro at RB. He's not even the best RB on our squad. The only top 5 player we have is Poz and of course since Jesse Marsch left we have the best coach in MLS.

 

 

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