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  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    And Hagglund was doing the forward runs that VDW has started to do to create some space for the DLPM that Bradley & Fraser are.


    This is the result of coaching & anybody who thinks Vanney & Co do none is not watching the games.
    I noticed that. The first goal, the ball was down the far left side, and Hagglund was marshalling the ball in the offensive corner and starting the attack. What put him entirely on the other side of his assignment? (Aside from being given freedom) I also noticed that Delgado had fallen back into Hagglund's RCB position while Nick was up there. Good squad communication.

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    Oliver Platt first pointed this out. His work is paywalled but he did a tweet showing an example




    In essence, Vanney & Bez got VDW to be an inverted FB that drives in front of Bradley, allowing Bradley to not be so keyed on.


    i.e. Coaching

    Not sure it will always work but if part of the plan to deal with the press is to release VDW & Mavinga to go forward, should make life interesting for opposing mids dealing with their passing.

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    I appreciate Vanney's focus on tactics when it works. He's a true student of the game. His weak area is expecting players that aren't up to it to play as if they are Man City.

    It's not a FIFA video game. We have a whole bunch of players who are incapable of playing even slightly like Pep Guardiola's squad. A reality check is needed. You play to the strengths and weaknesses of the players that you have. This is a mistake that he's repeatedly made. He needs to learn this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I appreciate Vanney's focus on tactics when it works. He's a true student of the game. His weak area is expecting players that aren't up to it to play as if they are Man City.

    It's not a FIFA video game. We have a whole bunch of players who are incapable of playing even slightly like Pep Guardiola's squad. A reality check is needed. You play to the strengths and weaknesses of the players that you have. This is a mistake that he's repeatedly made. He needs to learn this.
    I've been thinking this for a long time. And for Christ sake please get your players to have dedicated training sessions to practice penalty shots. Mind boggling we miss more than we score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post

    i.e. Coaching

    Not sure it will always work but if part of the plan to deal with the press is to release VDW & Mavinga to go forward, should make life interesting for opposing mids dealing with their passing.
    i.e. Coaching... where TFC gave up goals at the beginning of games, beginning of halves and regularly with in 5 minutes of giving up a previous goal. While also being put in danger repeatedly in these same situations where they lucked out without being scored upon. resulting in a massive uptick in goals against.


    So you are right it was Coaching not injuries. Or do we forget that Toronto gave up a goal at BMO at the two minute mark against Chivas the goal that ultimately cost us the championship. Not to mention what was it 40-60% of all goals last season was something like that.

    Ya Coaching... a Bad Coaching.

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    Uh, that was last July but whatever....

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Uh, that was last July but whatever....
    That is what I get for not looking at the date in these. Of course I'd already basically walked away from this at that point as anytime I mentioned that people shouted me down.

    Now I guess it is getting harder to ignore.

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  9. #1209
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    From the article

    Mitchell Tierney wrote an excellent column earlier about how there seems to be a discrepancy between the style of play that Vanney has espoused all off-season, and what management has provided him with players.
    I've been quietly wondering to myself if he pulled a Mourhino on Tuesday night. That is playing players out of position and or kids to send a message to upper management that he hasn't been supported in the transfer market.

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    I'm sorry I won't read Waking the Read or any other SB Nation site. They are owned by VOX Media a company that abuses Copyright to bully and intimidate as well as race baiting. When Vox issues an actual apology to those they have wronged or Waking the Red/SB Nation cuts ties with Vox I'll read them again

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    He should have been fired at the end of last season. Get rid of him now before this season becomes another write off. He got lucky in 2017, or to be more accurate, it was Bradley, Giovinco, Altidore and Vazquez that won us the cup, not the coach. If Vanney was any good that would have been our second MLS Cup and the club should presently be a dynasty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Woolfe View Post
    He should have been fired at the end of last season. Get rid of him now before this season becomes another write off. He got lucky in 2017, or to be more accurate, it was Bradley, Giovinco, Altidore and Vazquez that won us the cup, not the coach. If Vanney was any good that would have been our second MLS Cup and the club should presently be a dynasty.
    Ridiculous. He got us to the Champions League Final.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Woolfe View Post
    He should have been fired at the end of last season. Get rid of him now before this season becomes another write off. He got lucky in 2017, or to be more accurate, it was Bradley, Giovinco, Altidore and Vazquez that won us the cup, not the coach. If Vanney was any good that would have been our second MLS Cup and the club should presently be a dynasty.
    Thats true for every coach. Every coach needs a good roster to compete. 2018 was shredded by injuries and roster misfires. Now, we went from Vazquez-Giovinco-Altidore to Boyd and academy players for our attack.

    Think about Jurgen Klopp and David Wagner. Similar tactically, but Wagner resigned from a relegation bound Huddersfield while Klopp is aiming for the league. The difference is £237 millions worth of wages.

    The squad that gave up four goals vs Indepiente has a wage bill of 12 million (Jozy’s 5 million is recovering from surgery, Van der Wiel’s 900k is sitting at home with his supermodel wife and daughter, Giovinco’s 7 million now in Saudi Arabia and Vazquez 1.1 million in Qatar). That’s about 12 million of wages not doing a thing from our treble winning wage bill of 24 million.

    We have only one DP active and no attacking threat to speak of. Even Pep Guardiola would struggle and we'll call him a bald fraud.

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    Vanney gets way too much rope from some for the team success. The achievements TFC have had, have more to do with good players than good coaching. In the MLS Cup win, the best players stepped up when they had to, Vanney never out coached anyone.

    Now when you look at the bad things about TFC, Vanney has his fingerprints all over it. Just some of the recent examples:
    - Benched better players to play a rookie in CCL
    - Continually talks/forces a 4-3-3 formation which he doesn’t have players for
    - Sets players up to fail in unfamiliar positions they’ve never even played before (Bradley CB, Aketxe LW)

    Vanney cannot have eternal life all because he coached a team to an MLS Title, that’s simply overvaluing his contribution.

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    On some level, the team gets a pass for about 5 years from me because they won a championship. Go ask an RBNY or Dallas fan how they feel about our complaints.

    OK. Let's get pumped. Pozo fever time. This guy really might change everything all by himself.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Woolfe View Post
    He should have been fired at the end of last season. Get rid of him now before this season becomes another write off. He got lucky in 2017, or to be more accurate, it was Bradley, Giovinco, Altidore and Vazquez that won us the cup, not the coach. If Vanney was any good that would have been our second MLS Cup and the club should presently be a dynasty.
    Vanney has his faults, but he wasn't a zero towards the win. Put many other coaches in charge and they never even make the final. He didn't win CONCACAF coach of the year (the first American to be so honoured) for nothing.

    His flaws show when he doesn't have the personnel to execute his perfect vision, like last year with the injuries. He doesn't seem to be able to work with a squad that can't do what he wants them to do and has no idea how to solve that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    OK. Let's get pumped. Pozo fever time. This guy really might change everything all by himself.
    More likely might keep us respectable. MLS seasons are brutal and long. We still need a speedy wide player with some skill and a primarily defensive minded midfielder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    More likely might keep us respectable. MLS seasons are brutal and long. We still need a speedy wide player with some skill and a primarily defensive minded midfielder.
    My ceiling for this year is 2015 and my floor is 2014.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    My ceiling for this year is 2015 and my floor is 2014.
    We were pretty good in 2016 without Vazquez or Mavinga. Oso hadn’t developed yet. If Pozo can give us most of what Gio would have given us (this is not the same as what Gio gave us in 2016,I am not daft), and we get a little something else (speed at the wing, or a Cheyrou type presence), we can be something like third in the east again.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    We were pretty good in 2016 without Vazquez or Mavinga. Oso hadn’t developed yet. If Pozo can give us most of what Gio would have given us (this is not the same as what Gio gave us in 2016,I am not daft), and we get a little something else (speed at the wing, or a Cheyrou type presence), we can be something like third in the east again.
    2016 everyone was at peak performance (especially and including Vanney). I don't think we can expect the same from 2019.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    2016 everyone was at peak performance (especially and including Vanney). I don't think we can expect the same from 2019.
    It wasn’t. We were fifth or sixth halfway through that season, we had a bunch of injuries (Bradley and Altidore especially), and that was the peak “Vanney Out” era on here. That thread ran 50 pages in two months. We lost a bunch of games where the other team were down a man (or two!). Remember this game?

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...ronto-fc/recap
    Last edited by ensco; 02-25-2019 at 08:57 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Toluca fire their manager, not long after their blow out loss to Sporting K.C.

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/...vs-sporting-kc

    I kind of felt the same way (I wanted Vanney fired) when we got blown out by a team from an inferior league

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defoe View Post
    Toluca fire their manager, not long after their blow out loss to Sporting K.C.

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/...vs-sporting-kc

    I kind of felt the same way (I wanted Vanney fired) when we got blown out by a team from an inferior league
    I wonder if Greg starts getting close to Aaron's record if MLSE will do anything.

    Keep in mind that was 18 Games From March 7th to his last game May 26th. 10MLS 4CCL 4CC. MLS 9L 1W 10 Goals For 22 against. CCL Semi Final 1L 2T 1W 7 Goals For 10 Against. CC Champions 2T 2W 4 Goals For 1 against. Making a total of 10L 4T 4W in all Competitions 21 Goals For 33 Against.

    If (just for comparison) we look at Vanney's last 18 competitive games in all competitions 9L 3T 6W 32 Goals For 34 Against.

    (I should point out that I didn't know what Vanney's record would look like when I started.)
    Last edited by Kaz; 02-25-2019 at 04:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    It wasn’t. We were fifth or sixth halfway through that season, we had a bunch of injuries (Bradley and Altidore especially), and that was the peak “Vanney Out” era on here. That thread ran 50 pages in two months. We lost a bunch of games where the other team were down a man (or two!). Remember this game?

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...ronto-fc/recap
    Ironically my two takeaways from that gamer were we needed a playmaker and (surprise) a real winger.

    Three years later...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    I wonder if Greg starts getting close to Aaron's record if MLSE will do anything.

    Keep in mind that was 18 Games From March 7th to his last game May 26th. 10MLS 4CCL 4CC. MLS 9L 1W 10 Goals For 22 against. CCL Semi Final 1L 2T 1W 7 Goals For 10 Against. CC Champions 2T 2W 4 Goals For 1 against. Making a total of 10L 4T 4W in all Competitions 21 Goals For 33 Against.

    If (just for comparison) we look at Vanney's last 18 competitive games in all competitions 9L 3T 6W 32 Goals For 34 Against.

    (I should point out that I didn't know what Vanney's record would look like when I started.)
    I'll point out that Winter was playing his best XI most of those games (also in a 4-3-3) while Vanney had a lot more injuries to contend with. Now, I'm curious to see if TFC players now have the technical skill to play a 4-3-3 and still not do as well, which would be a good benchmark to show how much MLS has improved over the past 7 years.

  26. #1226
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    This thread reminds me of this movie quote

    So what now? Are we to be two immortals locked in an epic battle until judgment day and trumpets sound?
    Pretty much the same people on both sides trying to cut swords against skeleton bone.

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    I'm sure someone has said this already but I hope that for tomorrow's game we revert back to a 3-5-2 and play the way we know how. We just cannot afford to give up even one goal, yet still score five, so we need to do whatever we're most comfortable with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    I'll point out that Winter was playing his best XI most of those games (also in a 4-3-3) while Vanney had a lot more injuries to contend with. Now, I'm curious to see if TFC players now have the technical skill to play a 4-3-3 and still not do as well, which would be a good benchmark to show how much MLS has improved over the past 7 years.
    I will say three things to that.

    1) Vanney had much larger purse strings. He and Bez could have brought in support they didn't. We lacked Defensive players in the offseason last year, and this years both years we saw very little in quality acquisitions. While also having the option to try to bring in help doing the summer transfer. Which he didn't.

    2) The year before when injuries happened and Toronto kept doing well with basically the same players we were the Deepest team in history. Same time a year latter not performing injuries are the excuse.

    3) As I said I didn't put Vanney's record as a hit. If it was very good I would have put it down. It didn't matter what his record was. I was actually shocked how close it was when you added in the CCL and CC (which I also forgot was under Winter). So Winter's Record looked better than I expected and Vanney's worse. The fact you needed to make an excuse for Vanney means you also found the numbers a little too close for comfort. I put the data down with out direct comment. I even went so far as to Separate all the data for Winter to keep context as It was three different competitions including the Canadian Championship with first year Montreal

    I will add a quick 4th Winter played 18 games in 12 weeks at the beginning of 2012. Vanney Played 18 in 13 weeks in 2018. Winter with much less talent made it to the Semi Finals and was killed in Mexico with a much better Side who had taken the team apart in the group stage the year before as well. We all Remember being at Rogers Centre beating the LA with the big gigapixel photos. We all remember being in the cold for Chivas too. Winter 10L 4T 4W Vanney 8L 3T 7W in the same period and same number of games. And so I will put a real piece of commentary on it. If Winter had the same resources that Vanney had would he have done better? Winter had to play with a great DM in a CB roll We had a regularly injured DP up front. TFC in 2012 was not a good team. I would easily say that injured TFC was better in 2018 comparative to the teams they played than Toronto in 2012 was healthy comparative to the teams they played.

    So the question remains at what point does the record speak for the coach? how close does Vanney need to get (if it gets to that point) before Vanney is sacked.
    Last edited by Kaz; 02-28-2019 at 02:37 PM.

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    It shouldn’t. Team record are indicative of wage bills. Teams with higher wages typically win more games than teams with a low wage bill. Luck and injuries factor in as well. A coach at best have about 10 percent impact on a team’s record. Worse, most coaches only typically last 3 years. The sample size for records required to measure a coach’s impact needs at least 5-10 years.

    The truth of the matter is, very few coaches can have an impact on team records short of the likes of Bob Paige, Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger (champions league appearances from 2006-2013 despite paying off stadium debt).

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    I have to say, this morning, for the first time in a long time, I am thinking hard about Vanney. This CCL result is impossible to ignore.

    To see everybody else in MLS get through the first round of CCL in style, and us get drubbed by the easiest opponent, a semipro team... this result was simply unacceptable. They simply weren’t ready to play in Panama. This result alone would cause most managers in Europe to be fired.

    I believe the injuries explain what happened last year, but there is no excuse for this result. This Panamanian team, most of their guys make $5-10K a year - they played a 40 year old defender every minute of the tie.

    I mean, come on.

    It has to be causing Manning to think.

    I think there is a chance that Vanney has lost the room, or players have tuned him out. He has been here almost 5 years. It happens to the best managers.

    Vanney might be on a way, way shorter leash than we realize.

    EDIT: I hate saying this btw. Guadalajara was only 9 months ago.
    Last edited by ensco; 03-01-2019 at 07:39 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

 

 

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