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  1. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Because we now know that Seattle didn't burn us on the counter and score a goal, and you also know that we lost in PKs.

    I'm sorry but the idea that we "totally dominated" the game has taken hold only after the fact, once people saw the shots stat, which is misleading.

    We had the better play, and the better chances, but we did not have that many chances. They looked very dangerous on the counter (Morris nearly broke free several times), and the single best scoring chance of the game may have been Torres' muffed chance in alone after Beitashour scuffed the ball (Altidore's header across Frei was incredible, it deserves a thread all it's own for what Jozy did there, he created something out of nothing there, 3 guys were on him... but he wasn't in alone like Torres was).

    Vanney was probably afraid that going 3-4-3 would be too risky. I agree with him. Even if you don't it was a reasonable view.

    It's not like getting to PKs is worse than losing in the 120 minutes - it only seems that way afterwards.
    you may be right. My view is that we controlled the game, but were not a threat. Nor were Seattle. That is different than dominated, and it's what I saw and said at the time. In those circumstances, Ricketts could have helped us become a threat. We really needed a goal from the start or were going to risk penalties, as happened. I think a double sub around 65 th minute of Johnson Ricketts for Cooper Oso could have added a threat while still protecting against the counter. I would love to hear Vanney discuss these tactical issues at length.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Good grief, people really love to dig in.

    I'm not the biggest Vanney fan but the level of criticism coming from some quarters is rediculous.

    Is there nothing else to focus on? We could do much worse.
    I think there is mostly love for Vanney in this thread

  3. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I think there is mostly love for Vanney in this thread
    Maybe because both Vanney and TFC in general have improved since this thread started, not without individual faults to both Vanney and the players themselves.
    A good coach can use planning and change tactics, some are gambles, when they work you are a genius, when they don't you are a fool, and I might add that the players have to execute,
    they are professionals.

    A majority of the posters on this thread either pro or con Vanney profess themselves to have more knowledge and more experienced than those hired to do the job.

    I have level 2 coaching and have watched the game of football for many years and have a better insight than the casual fan, but my personal opinion, which is what we are all expressing here
    does not count for SFA on the pitch does it.

    Opinions = Discussions
    Fickle Fans we are

    Footnote: SFW = Sweet Fuck All

    Happy Christmas to all

  4. #1054
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    So ... has Vanney been renewed?
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Because we now know that Seattle didn't burn us on the counter and score a goal, and you also know that we lost in PKs.

    I'm sorry but the idea that we "totally dominated" the game has taken hold only after the fact, once people saw the shots stat, which is misleading.

    We had the better play, and the better chances, but we did not have that many chances. They looked very dangerous on the counter (Morris nearly broke free several times), and the single best scoring chance of the game may have been Torres' muffed chance in alone after Beitashour scuffed the ball (Altidore's header across Frei was incredible, it deserves a thread all it's own for what Jozy did there, he created something out of nothing there, 3 guys were on him... but he wasn't in alone like Torres was).

    Vanney was probably afraid that going 3-4-3 would be too risky. I agree with him. Even if you don't it was a reasonable view.

    It's not like getting to PKs is worse than losing in the 120 minutes - it only seems that way afterwards.
    It is not an unreasonable view. I just think from what I was seeing, that we would have been just fine going with a sort of 3-4-3, in that we did no have to change shape but just put in Rickets on the wing for Betashour, leaving everyone else the same. I think that would have created a lot of issues for them, without giving a lot in terms of organization team defense for us. I did not see them doing anything real on the counter, and the pressure that Rickets would have put on them would have kept them pinned back. But I agree, I do not think that Vanney's decision was wrong but different then what I would have hoped for. It is just opinion.

  6. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    So ... has Vanney been renewed?
    Bob Bradleys available as a back up option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Bob Bradleys available as a back up option.
    That's who the CMNT should be looking at but we're cheap and generally fairly stupid in these types of affairs.

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    The insta rumour in the US was LAFC. In Norway it was their NT.

    I suspect Bradley is going to either go to some team in Europe or to another NT. I can't see him coming back to North America just yet. He's got a proven track record of taking a mid table team and getting them farther.

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    So... we ever going to give him a new contract? He was in the last year of his deal, no? Still waiting for the announcement.

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    It's interesting to me that Vanney and Bez are out of contract at year end, and we have heard zip from anyone about that.

    May not mean anything. Or it might.

    I don't think we are as good as our record, and it's always hard to evaluate any coach/Gm that are handed 3 DPs of this caliber, but Vanney/Bez get high marks for roster construction and especially for player development (Hagglund and Zavaleta last year, Edwards and Bono this year)
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    I don't read any negatives into this at all. Nobody is going anywhere.

    Vanney's been pretty good this season. It's true he made a starting decision against the Crew that didn't work out, but he recovered nicely. That's what good coaches do.

    Against Minnesota the substitution of an attacking player for a defender was brilliant and daring.

    We tend to make our first impressions of someone permanent, it's how the human brain works, but Vanney has grown into his role and is not the "somewhat dodgy but willing to learn" coach that we first saw. He could easily be a first team coach elsewhere in MLS and most teams would consider it a major coup to get a coach that brought their team to the cup final.

  12. #1062
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    We made the cup final last year, and we're top of the table so far this year. Our team is widely regarded as the deepest and one of the best in the league. They have surrounded our DPs with a good combination of effective veterans and good young players. We have tactical flexibility and depth and, but for a few bounces, would have an even better record than we do (although I'll accept the argument that we've had a few bounces go our way during this streak). I don't agree that we aren't as good as our record. We are right in the conversation for the SS, which is what was expected of this team. Either way, I'm happy with them.
    Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy

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    Wait. My bad. I see what you guys think I said. That's not what I meant.

    To be clear: I am not arguing that Bez/Vanney should go, or that Manning doesn't want to keep them, or that I don't want to keep them. I have come around 100% on Bez and probably 75% on Vanney. The team's signings/trades have been outstanding the last two years. Best is the league.

    I am wondering if Manning is having trouble signing them (if so that is a situation that is ironically made worse by the current streak!)

    My point about our record is this: I am trying to pretend I am Manning. If I am playing Manning:

    I am not sure this is a SS-caliber team (a bunch of somewhat fluky recent results). But it's a very good team, a top 5 team for sure. Do I pay big money for Bez/Vanney, or do I think I can get these results from others? In other words, how much of the signings/trade success is because of me and the $100M DPs, and how much is because of the "management team"?
    Last edited by ensco; 05-14-2017 at 09:35 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Wait. My bad. I see what you guys think I said. That's not what I meant.

    To be clear: I am not arguing that Bez/Vanney should go, or that Manning doesn't want to keep them, or that I don't want to keep them. I have come around 100% on Bez and probably 75% on Vanney. The team's signings/trades have been outstanding the last two years. Best is the league.

    I am wondering if Manning is having trouble signing them (if so that is a situation that is ironically made worse by the current streak!)

    My point about our record is this: I am trying to pretend I am Manning. If I am playing Manning:

    I am not sure this is a SS-caliber team (a bunch of somewhat fluky recent results). But it's a very good team, a top 5 team for sure. Do I pay big money for Bez/Vanney, or do I think I can get these results from others? In other words, how much of the signings/trade success is because of me, and how much is because of the "management team"?
    Thinking like that would fly in in the face of Manning's consistency/continuity mantra, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Thinking like that would fly in in the face of Manning's consistency/continuity mantra, no?
    Yes.

    I am simply observing that it's really seriously weird for both the manager and the GM of the MLS Cup finalist, SS-leading team, to both be out of contract in five months.

    I think Vanney's public comments regarding this being the deepest team in league history (which surprised me, that sort of bragging isn't his style) are what caught my eye. They are interesting in the context of this issue.
    Last edited by ensco; 05-14-2017 at 09:37 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  16. #1066
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Wait. My bad. I see what you guys think I said. That's not what I meant.

    To be clear: I am not arguing that Bez/Vanney should go, or that Manning doesn't want to keep them, or that I don't want to keep them. I have come around 100% on Bez and probably 75% on Vanney. The team's signings/trades have been outstanding the last two years. Best is the league.

    I am wondering if Manning is having trouble signing them (if so that is a situation that is ironically made worse by the current streak!)

    My point about our record is this: I am trying to pretend I am Manning. If I am playing Manning:

    I am not sure this is a SS-caliber team (a bunch of somewhat fluky recent results). But it's a very good team, a top 5 team for sure. Do I pay big money for Bez/Vanney, or do I think I can get these results from others? In other words, how much of the signings/trade success is because of me and the $100M DPs, and how much is because of the "management team"?
    One could quite easily argue that our early run of ties included some fluky results the other way (ie. draws that should've been wins). I think Manning needs to get these guys locked up. Vanney is coming into his own and I don't think has reached his potential and Bez seems to keep turning up with guys who fill their roles very well. There is wide consideration amongst MLS analysts that TFC is right in the conversation for SS. Let's see how Dallas does with their games in hand and let's see how Orlando continues to evolve. Neither of those two can boast our depth ans that is a testament to the job management has done the past couple of seasons. Compare 2015's roster to our current roster and it isn't even close. They were handed three killer DPs, which was the easy part. The team around them is now up to par.
    Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    One could quite easily argue that our early run of ties included some fluky results the other way (ie. draws that should've been wins). I think Manning needs to get these guys locked up. Vanney is coming into his own and I don't think has reached his potential and Bez seems to keep turning up with guys who fill their roles very well. There is wide consideration amongst MLS analysts that TFC is right in the conversation for SS. Let's see how Dallas does with their games in hand and let's see how Orlando continues to evolve. Neither of those two can boast our depth ans that is a testament to the job management has done the past couple of seasons. Compare 2015's roster to our current roster and it isn't even close. They were handed three killer DPs, which was the easy part. The team around them is now up to par.
    I pretty much agree with all of that. They've done enough to get rewarded handsomely, both for what they have done, and because of the ongoing potential. But I don't like where this sits. Bez/Vanney are in serious lame duck land. If we do have the "best depth in league history", well, that's not sustainable in a cap league, the team will have to make some moves in the summer.

    It's interesting. If this was the Leafs or Raps, Shanahan or Masai would not be able to appear in public without reporters badgering him about this, but if Manning has been asked about it, I haven't seen it. For some reason, the TFC press corps is oblivious to it.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    It is sustainable if you spend your cap space well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    It is sustainable if you spend your cap space well.
    There is a lot more to it than that. We need to count on not getting picked over in expansion drafts (doable), continue to find great players on the cheap or develop through the academy (maybe doable), and lock down guys long term for value (tough).

    Hagglund is probably banging his head against the wall every night for signing that contract given his current form. Great win for TFC, but hitting home runs like that consistently will be tough. How does a roster accommodate a Bono and an Irwin long term for example? It's extremely hard - even if you make the $ work you need to convince someone who is starter quality to take less playing time than they'd get elsewhere.

    I know everyone is taking the piss at WJ vs. Cooper, but 1) one earns far less than the other 2) Johnson is at his highest and best use, plays the same rattle of roll as Bradley or close to it. The reason why he left is because Orlando could offer more money and an ideal spot on the field.

    Anyway, that's just one example of the difficult dynamics of keeping this all together but credit on management for successfully doing that so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    It's interesting to me that Vanney and Bez are out of contract at year end, and we have heard zip from anyone about that.

    May not mean anything. Or it might.

    I don't think we are as good as our record, and it's always hard to evaluate any coach/Gm that are handed 3 DPs of this caliber, but Vanney/Bez get high marks for roster construction and especially for player development (Hagglund and Zavaleta last year, Edwards and Bono this year)
    Right now I don't know what to think.

    Since the switch to 3-5-2 the PPG record speaks for it self 1.9-2PPG Across all competitions and just 5 loses (not counting the Cup which was a tie). We are currently in a period were TFC are expected to play 16 games in 9.5 weeks. (including CC games)

    However just because it speaks for it self doesn't mean it is telling us everything. Last year are largest set of wins came from a tight group of games. Where we won 6 of 8 games in 5 weeks (with a draw and a loss) The last two months with a looser schedule from September 10th to October 23rd we only won only 2 of 7 games (with 1 loss)

    The 3-5-2 gives us the ability to keep from loosing games. It isn't on it's own helping us win games.

    This year again we see the same exact thing.

    First 6 games lots of rest in between games for the most part... 1 win 4 draws 1 loss.


    I still have questions. Vanney has shown some improvements but also has shown some odd choices. The 3-5-2 allows us to avoid losses and pick up points. I want to see us be able to win when we aren't playing a game twice a week. What is happening when we aren't playing so regularly that results in us playing poorly? is it pressure? is it drive? is it something in training?

    We have a lot more Data than we did last year and so far it is showing the same thing. Bunch up the schedule TFC wins. Spread it out and we don't do nearly as well. (1.2ppg spread out, 2.6ppg when bunched up since with started using the 3-5-2 system)
    Last edited by Kaz; 05-14-2017 at 05:27 PM.

  21. #1071
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Right now I don't know what to think.

    Since the switch to 3-5-2 the PPG record speaks for it self 1.9-2PPG Across all competitions and just 5 loses (not counting the Cup which was a tie). We are currently in a period were TFC are expected to play 16 games in 9.5 weeks. (including CC games)

    However just because it speaks for it self doesn't mean it is telling us everything. Last year are largest set of wins came from a tight group of games. Where we won 6 of 8 games in 5 weeks (with a draw and a loss) The last two months with a looser schedule from September 10th to October 23rd we only won only 2 of 7 games (with 1 loss)

    The 3-5-2 gives us the ability to keep from loosing games. It isn't on it's own helping us win games.

    This year again we see the same exact thing.

    First 6 games lots of rest in between games for the most part... 1 win 4 draws 1 loss.


    I still have questions. Vanney has shown some improvements but also has shown some odd choices. The 3-5-2 allows us to avoid losses and pick up points. I want to see us be able to win when we aren't playing a game twice a week. What is happening when we aren't playing so regularly that results in us playing poorly? is it pressure? is it drive? is it something in training?

    We have a lot more Data than we did last year and so far it is showing the same thing. Bunch up the schedule TFC wins. Spread it out and we don't do nearly as well. (1.2ppg spread out, 2.6ppg when bunched up since with started using the 3-5-2 system)
    I don't know if you can call two stretches a trend. And last year the dip in form also coincided with Giovinco's injury. And we didn't have Vazquez.
    Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy

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    Bez and Vanney aren't Manning hires, and what he thinks of them, deep down, is anyone's guess.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Bez and Vanney aren't Manning hires, and what he thinks of them, deep down, is anyone's guess.
    At this point can't argue results. A rotated squad 1 win away from an MLS record 7 win streak. They have both done a good job of building a dep squad then managing it.

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    Not gonna find a better coach in MLS to take the job. Then Vanney will go on to coach LA Galaxy to more titles and we'll be eating our socks. We're top in the league (albeit we played way more games), have won games through character. The team seems to love each other. Maybe Vanney wants more monies but he's building himself up to be a long term coach in the MLS and I hope we keep him cuz the only way we'll get a better coach is if someone from Europe comes and we've seen how those experiments have worked out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Bez and Vanney aren't Manning hires, and what he thinks of them, deep down, is anyone's guess.
    Manning is much more transparent than your typical MLSE borg of the pre-Leiweke era.

    Based on his own statements he wasn't necessarily sold on them at first, but felt that the team needed stability. Since then he's indicated that he's warmed up to them considerably (winning does that), and thinks they are doing a decent job. I don't see any reason to think otherwise or that there is some ulterior plan. Of course he's got potential replacements, any good president of a club would, but I don't believe that he wants them to leave.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    It's likely they've both been resigned but there's been no press release. This FO has done that with players before, especially extensions/raises signed during the season, so I don't see any reason they'd change protocol for Vanney and Bez.

    from a Waking the Red article from Preseason: Manning indicated that he considered it such a formality that, assuming salary negotiations come to a successful conclusion, we may not even hear publicly that Vanney and Bezbatchenko have signed on the dotted line.

    http://www.wakingthered.com/2017/2/27/14755650/greg-vanney-tim-bezbatchenko-toronto-fc-contract-extensions-bill-manning-mls-transfer-news

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    It's likely they've both been resigned but there's been no press release.

    from a Waking the Red article from Preseason: Manning indicated that he considered it such a formality that, assuming salary negotiations come to a successful conclusion, we may not even hear publicly that Vanney and Bezbatchenko have signed on the dotted line.

    http://www.wakingthered.com/2017/2/27/14755650/greg-vanney-tim-bezbatchenko-toronto-fc-contract-extensions-bill-manning-mls-transfer-news
    Manning doesn't realize how paranoid the TFC fanbase is.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    It's likely they've both been resigned but there's been no press release. This FO has done that with players before, especially extensions/raises signed during the season, so I don't see any reason they'd change protocol for Vanney and Bez.

    from a Waking the Red article from Preseason: Manning indicated that he considered it such a formality that, assuming salary negotiations come to a successful conclusion, we may not even hear publicly that Vanney and Bezbatchenko have signed on the dotted line.

    http://www.wakingthered.com/2017/2/27/14755650/greg-vanney-tim-bezbatchenko-toronto-fc-contract-extensions-bill-manning-mls-transfer-news
    In the Vocal Minority podcast with Manning, didn't he make similar comments? Or am I imagining that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Manning doesn't realize how paranoid the TFC fanbase is.
    Or he's saving it for a ticket lull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    It's likely they've both been resigned but there's been no press release. This FO has done that with players before, especially extensions/raises signed during the season, so I don't see any reason they'd change protocol for Vanney and Bez.

    from a Waking the Red article from Preseason: Manning indicated that he considered it such a formality that, assuming salary negotiations come to a successful conclusion, we may not even hear publicly that Vanney and Bezbatchenko have signed on the dotted line.

    http://www.wakingthered.com/2017/2/27/14755650/greg-vanney-tim-bezbatchenko-toronto-fc-contract-extensions-bill-manning-mls-transfer-news
    That is a pretty interesting stance. That wouldn't impress me much if I were Vanney.

    That stance is pretty atypical in pro sports for coaches (unheard of in North America). It hurts coaches in the room if the players don't know if the club is committed to him.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

 

 

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