New Vanney evaluation thread

[OgtheDim]

The ratio is 20 shots for every goal. Once up a man, start firing from everywhere. But, this team relies upon speed and touches and technical ability to score - that's great and all and you'd think when up a man it would be easier but it isn't cause all they do is collapse. So, start shooting from way out just to get them moving. As a lot of us were saying last night....just shoot the effn ball.

To me, this bit of this team is on Vanney. The ability to adjust attacking style. Now, I did see a change from the SJE game where all we did was swing it wide (Cheyrou refused to shoot in that game BTW). They were attempting to barge through the middle a few times, which to me is more effective then the bad crossing we've seen. And Altidore is really good at that sort of game. But their are 3 options in attack, cross, taking it at defenders (our preferred) or long range shots. We don't do enough of the latter to keep teams honest. And that's a coaching thing.

Is it worth firing Vanney over? No. But right now its hurting us as defences know that one we go down a goal or go up a player, they can play compact and we can't break them down.

[OgtheDim]

The way to stop TFC is to chop Gio down.

Vanney has two months to find a real Plan B.

Well he might have 2 months if it turns out to be a groin tear and not just a strain. Journos were told afterwards Seba came into the game with a groin strain, tried to play through it, and then felt something.

I didn't see that much hack a Seba last night actually.

[ensco]

Well he might have 2 months if it turns out to be a groin tear and not just a strain. Journos were told afterwards Seba came into the game with a groin strain, tried to play through it, and then felt something.

I didn't see that much hack a Seba last night actually.

That's true. They hacked him in the playoffs repeatedly, not so much yesterday.

Point still stands. There are vocal dissenters, but I think TFC does not have answers when Gio is marked out of the game.

[DinamoTFC]

Team needs to practice 1v1 , 2v2 and a lot more shooting drills. The players are very very timid when it comes to attacking defenders 1v1. Only giovinco and occasional Osorio tries. Hopefully cooper has that Latin American creativity where they aren't shy to run at them.

Crossing isn't working against teams that bunker down, evident after 4 games being up a man. Need to go right at them with some unpredictability and shoot on goal and get rebounds or a lucky deflection. Then one that goal happens the game opens up.

[Soccer Mum]

Team needs to practice 1v1 , 2v2 and a lot more shooting drills. The players are very very timid when it comes to attacking defenders 1v1. Only giovinco and occasional Osorio tries. Hopefully cooper has that Latin American creativity where they aren't shy to run at them.

Crossing isn't working against teams that bunker down, evident after 4 games being up a man. Need to go right at them with some unpredictability and shoot on goal and get rebounds or a lucky deflection. Then one that goal happens the game opens up.

You should teach them.

[Hamilton_Red]

Vanney's mistake tonight was not as much what went wrong after the red card it was the first 20 minutes. Here is a team on a big high after a fantastic away trip and is top of the division, saturday night big crowd, pumped up fans with the tifo and we came out of the blocks like a wet squib. We should have been out like a whirlwind putting a tonne of pressure on and getting an early goal. 3 shots on target the whole game! Even if we had given a goal away early on the counter attack we would have had time. That weak first half and letting Montreal have some belief - they got fired up after the "injustice" of the red card. Biello probably gave a barnstormer speech at the half on that subject.

Still hurting after that loss.

[OgtheDim]

Just listened to the Vanney interview afterwards and...he pretty much said what I said about the attack.

We'll see if the team can learn this as this has been an issue for weeks now.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Clearly thus is something Vanney has to work on. Worth firing him while we are first in the east and still contending for supporters shield? Ridiculous

[paul-collins]

Is in normal to have 20% (6/31) of your games end with a man advantage? (I have not looked at it, I'm only counting the 6 ronzilla listed - it could be more than 6)

On the flip side, how many games have Toronto ended down a man?

I'm suspecting this is a "special teams" issue that has not been adequately addressed. It *feels* like the number of times we've been in this situation is unusually high. Perhaps they didn't feel it was something that would happen often enough to warrant attention - but clearly that has not proven to be true.

[DinamoTFC]

You should teach them.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. But nothing I said was wrong. After watching every game this season that is their weaknesses. Many positives. But still a few things to work on down the stretch especially against bunker teams.

[Initial B]

I'm still okay with Vanney. So he has a weakness for dealing with being a man or two up at times. All MLS coaches have weaknesses, that's why they're still in MLS. We're not going to get anyone better, really. It's something I'm sure he'll work on in the offseason so he has a better plan of how to deal with those situations. #InVanneyWeTrust

[TMAN80]

Just listened to the Vanney interview afterwards and...he pretty much said what I said about the attack.

We'll see if the team can learn this as this has been an issue for weeks now.

Right. The crossing method is terrible and not working.

So why do you sub in Endoh(seba) who doesn't bring any other form of attack besides bad crosses, and cann't score on top of that, instead of Cheyrou. I'm not entirely sure on the timing of the next two subs, but they were 70+ minutes in. This is after 25 mins of non stop crosses, no real chances and a counter attack goal by Montreal.

Cheyrou needed to be in much sooner, and Rickets made no sense. I feel like Vanney just doesn't learn from what he sees. Cooper needed to come in to avoid what happened in similar games recently. Its not the players fault, because they are who they are. The same applies in any sport. You can't just "make" guys do what they are not comfortable doing, which for a lot of our guys, thats shooting from outside the box, and 1 v 1.

I don't want Vanney out, but man this guy has to start learning his players, and being more decisive. You keep doing the same thing with the same guys, don't expect different results.

[OgtheDim]

Look at the timing

67'

		Tsubasa Endoh Sebastian GiovincoF
71'		Tosaint Ricketts Marco DelgadoM
76'		Benoit Cheyrou Steven BeitashourD

73'

Ignacio PiattiAssisted By: Dominic Oduro, Matteo Mancosu

Endoh was supposed to be for Delgado but Giovinco went down. I suspect Vanney would have gone 3-4-3 with Ricketts for Beitashour next and then Cheyrou as the last roll of the dice.

[TFC Tifoso]

Just listened to the Vanney interview afterwards and...he pretty much said what I said about the attack.

We'll see if the team can learn this as this has been an issue for weeks now.

and that's good for me. To hear that he at least acknowledged the problem and will be looking to correct it.
Its little things like that which I look for......this isn't a coach who would say something like "Well after they went down to 10 men they just bunkered down and we couldn't find a way around it."
To me that would show the guy is clueless.

But we need to start using the red card to our advantage....once or twice I get it, but this is a very odd trend now....

[C.Ronaldo]

That's true. They hacked him in the playoffs repeatedly, not so much yesterday.

Point still stands. There are vocal dissenters, but I think TFC does not have answers when Gio is marked out of the game.

Jham stepped up when needed
Babouli laso has that fire we need.

but Endoh keeps getting the chances, I've had enough of Endoh for 2016. He has the tools but he isn't a game changer, nor have i seen much progression on his D. He really could use some TFC2 time, but hes not allowed to go down is he?

[C.Ronaldo]

Look at the timing

67'

		Tsubasa Endoh Sebastian GiovincoF
71'		Tosaint Ricketts Marco DelgadoM
76'		Benoit Cheyrou Steven BeitashourD

73'

Ignacio PiattiAssisted By: Dominic Oduro, Matteo Mancosu

Endoh was supposed to be for Delgado but Giovinco went down. I suspect Vanney would have gone 3-4-3 with Ricketts for Beitashour next and then Cheyrou as the last roll of the dice.

why didn't he go with Cheyrou at the half, we lacked creativity by that point

[OgtheDim]

The next 2 games will be key for how this season is seen. Time for Vanney to prove a few things.

[anto7]

According to an article I just read by John Molinaro, tomorrow marks the 2 year anniversary of when Vanney took over from Nelson.
He also states that Vanney is our longest serving coach in our history.
Considering the mess he took over and the years of constant mismanagement, I say he has done pretty well in positioning ourselves to be in contention to win the east and supporters shield.
Of course that could all still go off the rails in the next few weeks........but hopefully not.

[CBTFC]

Of course that could all still go off the rails in the next few weeks........but hopefully not.

It probably won't, but if for some reason it does we all know it will be 100% Vanney's coaching abilities and nothing to do with shooting the ball at the net instead of trying to tiki-taka every goal...

[ag futbol]

The ratio is 20 shots for every goal. Once up a man, start firing from everywhere. But, this team relies upon speed and touches and technical ability to score - that's great and all and you'd think when up a man it would be easier but it isn't cause all they do is collapse. So, start shooting from way out just to get them moving. As a lot of us were saying last night....just shoot the effn ball.

I'm not sure where this idea we rely on speed of touches and technical ability comes from because that's exactly what we are struggling with to break down these bunkers.

Watch how many touches Endoh requires to put in a cross: it's too many. He should putting in more first time balls and the crosses he's sending in should be more accurate. He also needs to show a willingness to at least on occasion take on the defender. He turns back for the negative pass far too often. It's not good enough and its silly that we continue to work through him while having a numerical advantage.

It's a similar story inside. There needs to be more quality play that qucikly moves the ball. Those shots from distance are only going to crash into defenders because without quick movement / thinking there will be no space.

This team needs a re-think about how it approaches moving the ball.

[MightyDM]

My view:

Vanney should not have been hired when he was, nor Nelsen fired. Cost us the playoffs that season due to his naive emphasis on optimistic attack from start of games. Club gave up the first goal, usually in the first half, in an astonishing percentage of games. Dropped out of the playoffs. Not qualified to take over a team in a playoff spot late in a season, that role is reserved for someone with experience. #notvanney

Last year, he gave good press conferences, but little else. We continued to ship early goals - go back and look at the record, it's stunningly poor. The last two games v. Montreal were dreadful coaching. They made a change at halftime of the first and we never responded. There were choices on the roster, and none were taken. 5-0 over 135 minutes was the result. Some say the flaws were personnel but the lack of tactical response in those two games was totally on the coaching staff. #vanneyout

This year? A revelation. Consistent, organized defence. Good play and good ball movement. Development of young players like Hamilton and Chapman. Brilliant CCL run almost totally with youth - youth who were terrific, like Morgan. Good squad rotation. Fun to watch. First place. #wethevanney

criticisms: still needs to be the ruthless boss. Seba needed rest ( injury sure looks like an overuse injury) and having a baby was a perfect excuse not to send to Orlando. Needed to make that call. Substitutions sometimes puzzling ( ex not using Cooper on Saturday when his unpredictability would have been perfect), and team cannot win when a man up. But, so far well beyond expectations and it's a joy to watch the club play.

to me, he has shown significant improvement and we should close this thread in recognition that coaching simply isn't an issue for us. It would actually strengthen his hand in the locker room if we did.

#wethevanney

[Jack]

Great post, MightyDM.

[OgtheDim]

I'm not sure where this idea we rely on speed of touches and technical ability comes from because that's exactly what we are struggling with to break down these bunkers.
...

Watch the work being done in front of the box before the crosses happen.

And, the attack in general when not up a man is about quick passing up to the forwards who then do quick passing between themselves and the mids into the area to get a shot.

We are not a crossing the ball team.

[ag futbol]

Watch the work being done in front of the box before the crosses happen.

And, the attack in general when not up a man is about quick passing up to the forwards who then do quick passing between themselves and the mids into the area to get a shot.

We are not a crossing the ball team.

Agreed, we're not a crossing the ball team. But we're not moving the ball all that well either. We're about the counter attack and Seba - that's really the extent of it.

Rarely was there any intricate attempt to break through the wall of defenders. I don't think the passing should be lauded by any means.

[Oldtimer]

Great post, MightyDM.

Agreed, though there are still some areas that need improvement, but he continues to develop. Early on I saw hopeful signs that Vanney was good at learning from his mistakes.

BTW, I see no need to close this thread, if everyone is happy with Vanney, this thread will die by itself.

[marquis]

My 2c

Although I agree with the fact that Vanney improved significantly since last year, I still think his tactical prowess and ability to read a game and adjust are average at best.

His game plan is pretty much the same - try to get the ball somehow in Giovinco/Altidore's general area and then hope for they can figure something out. There is absolutely no midfield buildup, no combinations, no visible schemes. When the opposing team applies sustained high pressure, like Montreal did last week, we are pretty much neutralized - watch again the first half against MTL, we literally couldn't get past the midfield, most passing occurred in our half. Somebody said earlier that was disappointing that "we came out of the blocks like a wet squib". Well, I think we simply couldn't do anything because MTL dictated the game. That's all on Vanney, he was simply outclassed tactically.

His lack of tactical IQ becomes even more evident when we are up one or two men. We then have the whole midfield to our disposal but we are incapable of creating any opportunities because the players clearly don't know what do with the ball: there are no practiced combinations, no fast 1-2's or any type of direct play to try and penetrate the overcrowded defense. Again, no plan, no ability to read the game and adjust.

I strongly believe that had we hired a proven manager (from Europe, not MLS) 2 years ago, we would now be firmly in Shield and Cup contention. There is a strong imbalance between the quality of our roster and the coach's abilities. A 401 Corolla commuter would never get the most out of a Ferrari.

I am not advocating firing Vanney now and blowing up the house again. Vanney should finish the season, but Manning should start looking and make the change for next season. MLSE needs to open their wallets and lure a star coach from Europe. Why can't we be great?

[Areathrasher]

People need to wake up to the fact MLS isn't going to attract star coaches from Europe anytime soon. All you're gonna get from Europe are washouts like Coyle or Guillt or younger managers looking to make a name for themselves (Winter, Viera,Paunovic)

Some Italian tactician or whoever isn't going to come in for all the money in the world unless there is a massive transfer budget to go with it.

[marquis]

People need to wake up to the fact MLS isn't going to attract star coaches from Europe anytime soon. All you're gonna get from Europe are washouts like Coyle or Guillt or younger managers looking to make a name for themselves (Winter, Viera,Paunovic)

Some Italian tactician or whoever isn't going to come in for all the money in the world unless there is a massive transfer budget to go with it.

Everyone has his price. For $2-3 million/per season you could get a great manager from Europe. It's not gonna be Mourinho, but you don't need Mourinho...

[Oldtimer]

People need to wake up to the fact MLS isn't going to attract star coaches from Europe anytime soon. All you're gonna get from Europe are washouts like Coyle or Guillt or younger managers looking to make a name for themselves (Winter, Viera,Paunovic)

Some Italian tactician or whoever isn't going to come in for all the money in the world unless there is a massive transfer budget to go with it.

Everyone has his price. For $2-3 million/per season you could get a great manager from Europe. It's not gonna be Mourinho, but you don't need Mourinho...

Problem is most European coaches can't handle MLS squads which have multi-million dollar players mixed with guys earning $80,000 per year. You can't just buy another $3 million player to make your team better when you can have only 3 DPs. The foreign coaches who have worked out either played for some time in MLS as a player or spent some time in North America in some other capacity.

[Areathrasher]

Everyone has his price. For $2-3 million/per season you could get a great manager from Europe. It's not gonna be Mourinho, but you don't need Mourinho...

Look at the list of recent big name managers that have been linked with MLS sides...

Dunga - Orlando's Brazilian owner wanted him to replace Heath. Dunga wasn't interested in MLS. He knows he can score a gig at one of the big Brazilian clubs on the manager merry go round.
Capello - Linked with NYCFC after Kreis. Wanted 7m a year NYCFC baulked and went with Vieira.
Roberto Martinez - Atlanta wanted him according to Twellman, he wanted a gig in Europe and he took the Belgium gig instead.
Walter Mazzari - He shares an agent with Giovinco and he was pumping his tyres for a move to TFC during the great #Vanneyout wars of 2015. He ends up at Watford in the Prem.

You said proven managers for 2-3m a year. A proven manager will be able to pick up another gig in Europe on that sort of money with a decent transfer budget, control over their squad and not have to deal with MLS rule bullshit and coaching up a bunch of NCAA grads.

And if they have a price China will probably pay it before any MLS team ever will.