New Vanney evaluation thread

[Ultra & Proud]

Thanks for doing that. Confirms what I thought. I think people have overplayed Altidore's effect on Seba's goal scoring, to underplay both Jozy's and Seba's poor form.

Seba's poor form is mostly from him missing sitters and trying too hard. Jozy does clear space. It's not that Seba is 'the guy' to benefit. It's that those few seconds where Jozy draws defenders gives slow motion thinkers like Osorio and Delgado the extra seconds they need to find the right pass. When Jozy is in, these things happen as there is more time for our supposed midfield play makers to try to make plays. Without him, these players wait so long that all shots and passing lanes are gone so they play square or backwards passes and our attack stalls.

I said before Osorio has zero hope of being a useful AM (or really just a starting mid) on our team. Now I will say that when he did look decent, it was when Jozy was in and he had more time on the ball to process what was going on. Forget the Seba stats, a healthy Jozy makes the team better and that's what matters.

[ag futbol]

I think it's important to state this is a different year. Every MLS team has all of last seasons footage to ponder about how to stop "TFC". Wouldn't be the first time someone's production has dropped off second year in the league after opposing teams have adjusted.

Where Seba now has even less space everyone else should have more. Unfortunately that opportunity has not been seized, by Altidore when he was playing or anyone else in particular.

AM still a pressing need. At a minimum a consistent second threat on goal. Everyone in general needs to be less passive in front, think faster, and top always deferring to the next guy.

[spark]

I think the NCAA guys deserve serious consideration. No reason why someone like sasho cirovski couldn't be as effective as Porter. Otherwise I might see if Oscar Pareja couldn't be pried out of Dallas with a big offer.

Cirovski has been with Maryland too long that I don't think he'd be pried out of that lifetime job for TFC which has zero stability written all over it.

If someone's looking to NCAA I would probably go with younger guys who have had strong success either winning or ID'ing players, where MLS would be the next step in their coaching career like Brian Weise (Georgetown), Carlos Somoano (UNC) or Ian McIntyre (Syracuse).

[Areathrasher]

Cirovski has been with Maryland too long that I don't think he'd be pried out of that lifetime job for TFC which has zero stability written all over it.

If someone's looking to NCAA I would probably go with younger guys who have had strong success either winning or ID'ing players, where MLS would be the next step in their coaching career like Brian Weise (Georgetown), Carlos Somoano (UNC) or Ian McIntyre (Syracuse).

What about the Akron coach?

[PopePouri]

We would really consider another rookie coach?

[Initial B]

Fans seem to forget that the purpose of MLS was not just to develop American players, but American coaches as well. Vanney has probably been targeted by the MLS FO that he is young and talented enough to do well, so they would prefer he kept coaching at this level, learning as he goes and developing into the next Bruce Arena and take over the Galaxy.

[KurtLarSUN]

Fans seem to forget that the purpose of MLS was not just to develop American players, but American coaches as well. Vanney has probably been targeted by the MLS FO that he is young and talented enough to do well, so they would prefer he kept coaching at this level, learning as he goes and developing into the next Bruce Arena and take over the Galaxy.

If there was any truth to this, why would MLS ever allow foreigners to coach any MLS teams?

[portu]

We would really consider another rookie coach?

Please no. We need proven MLS coaching.

I have this dream that Arena doesn't renew his LA contract at the end of this season and he takes over from Bez & Vanney.

[Kaz]

There are 10 outfield starting players. Toronto FC has been missing roughly 40% of theirs most of the season. And its goalkeeper, who was also a very good signing in the offseason. Why is this just overlooked by so many people? Look at Dallas without its starters? It lost 5-0 in Seattle.

Toronto FC is 3-1-1 when mostly healthy (all three DPs starting and playing at least 45 minutes) this season. Just take a step back and see where this team is in October.

Firing management means everything will be blown up. There will be multiple staff changes. A number of current players would likely go. It would start a new rebuild process.

This team doesn't need to be rebuilt. It needs to be healthy. The injuries have been unfortunate.

This isn't over looked Kurt. Bradley in his role this year has not been a playmaker. In fact having him play a DM role while having Will Johnson and Cheyrou makes him totally needless. He is best on our team as a playmaker. Jozy doesn't affect the goals scored. With or without Jozy we were not scoring nearly as often and relying on a strong defensive performance to win games. We have a coach with a 7 million dollar player on the bench who choose to put a defender in a forward position while down a goal against 10 men.

Gio has been playing poorly for a while now.

The players missing shouldn't have had the affect that you are attributing. In fact we were missing several of these same players last year and were still scoring much more often than we are this year.

the fact fewer players are taking shots while Gio is taking more and we are shooting less on Goal is on the coaching staff.

There isn't the service. There is no excuse for what happened in San Jose. This same issue has been here ALL season long. I have been saying the same basic thing since the beginning of May and been concerned since nearly the beginning of the season. My assessment has been consistent and has not been proven incorrect. The same issue has been here the whole time.. Our offense sucks.. it has since the beginning of the season. This is a combination of Coaching and Player Acquisition or more accurately the lack of both.

[TFC Tifoso]

so I've posed the question a couple of times but never really got a response....

for those who are wanting an "experienced" MLS coach with a consistent track record, your choices are basically 2......Arena and Schmidt.
Aside from those 2, who do the people asking have in mind?
the fact of the matter is this isn't Europe, where there's 5-10 managers who can be reached out to really at any given time....so who fits the bill in MLS??

We're missing probably our 2 most important midfielders at the moment so its shouldn't be any wonder as to why we have no build up play.

imo this falls more on Bez.....he's the reason why Nick Hagglund is 3rd on our CF depth behind Altidore and Hamilton

[Kaz]

We're missing probably our 2 most important midfielders at the moment so its shouldn't be any wonder as to why we have no build up play.

imo this falls more on Bez.....he's the reason why Nick Hagglund is 3rd on our CF depth behind Altidore and Hamilton

We had no build up play before hand. Because we had nothing in the Final third.

This has been the issue all season. No service.


as for your other question. That is up to Manning. I don't pretend to know the coaching situation. However It is possible to find one, even internationally with the right research. A coach in North America actually has to coach not just get the largest pay role.

In fact looking at maybe Iceland's coach. Or a league where they have to manage funds and deal with players at a similar level of play. The mistake we make is going to England or to Youth Coaches. Instead of looking for the right coach. You mix that with a GM that also knows how to deal with limited funds. That is something that might be best left inside the league.

The simple fact is Vanney isn't doing a good job nor is Bez.

[TFC Tifoso]

We had no build up play before hand. Because we had nothing in the Final third.

This has been the issue all season. No service.


as for your other question. That is up to Manning. I don't pretend to know the coaching situation. However It is possible to find one, even internationally with the right research. A coach in North America actually has to coach not just get the largest pay role.

In fact looking at maybe Iceland's coach. Or a league where they have to manage funds and deal with players at a similar level of play. The mistake we make is going to England or to Youth Coaches. Instead of looking for the right coach. You mix that with a GM that also knows how to deal with limited funds. That is something that might be best left inside the league.

The simple fact is Vanney isn't doing a good job nor is Bez.

Regarding the play issue.....I tend to disagree. I though we were playing very well early in the year (8-10 games) when we had our full complement of players.....but that's strictly opinion whether you agree or not.

About the coach issue....sorry but imo "That's up to Manning" is a cop out.
The explicit narrative from almost all here is an "experienced MLS coach with a track record", which again does not exist outside of Arena and Schmidt. That's nothing Manning has to discover.....it's just fact.
And as far as I know, Iceland's coach does not have a blessed clue of MLS, so I don't now how bringing a guy like that in would be beneficial.....same for most who would come from Europe.
Besides, it's a lot easier to have a team bunker down and hope for the best in a 6-7 game tournament (like Iceland did)......much harder to do over an MLS season I'd say...
and also, around here, that's called "Preki-ball"....something not looked upon very fondly.

[trane]

We were playing very well for a stretch, but we have clearly lost it, and yes we are short handed, but we should be weathering it better, clearly we are not.

If we are going to change coach, it has to be done soon, before the season is lost. If we do change we need to stop bringing in projects/rookies we need a coach who has proven that he can do more with less. Rannieri (joke).

Listen it is not all on Vanney, but we need to do more then sneak into the playoffs with the investment we have made in this team.

By the way a DM can be a play maker, and Bradley can certainly be a play maker from DM. He was great there when we were clicking we are not. Something has to give to turn the season around.

[TFC Tifoso]

We were playing very well for a stretch, but we have clearly lost it, and yes we are short handed, but we should be weathering it better, clearly we are not.

If we are going to change coach, it has to be done soon, before the season is lost. If we do change we need to stop bringing in projects/rookies we need a coach who has proven that he can do more with less. Rannieri (joke).

Listen it is not all on Vanney, but we need to do more then sneak into the playoffs with the investment we have made in this team.

By the way a DM can be a play maker, and Bradley can certainly be a play maker from DM. He was great there when we were clicking we are not. Something has to give to turn the season around.

but this right here is the problem.

Who in MLS/NA fits this criteria? People keep asking for it like these types of coaches are readily available here.

I'm not at all saying that because they don't really exist that we should just be happy with Vanney, but the fact is most coaches in NA will lack experience and by extension lack a track record.
Should Vanney get fired, expect much of the same type taking over for him. Would that be beneficial to TFC?

[Kaz]

Regarding the play issue.....I tend to disagree. I though we were playing very well early in the year (8-10 games) when we had our full complement of players.....but that's strictly opinion whether you agree or not.

About the coach issue....sorry but imo "That's up to Manning" is a cop out.
The explicit narrative from almost all here is an "experienced MLS coach with a track record", which again does not exist outside of Arena and Schmidt. That's nothing Manning has to discover.....it's just fact.
And as far as I know, Iceland's coach does not have a blessed clue of MLS, so I don't now how bringing a guy like that in would be beneficial.....same for most who would come from Europe.
Besides, it's a lot easier to have a team bunker down and hope for the best in a 6-7 game tournament (like Iceland did)......much harder to do over an MLS season I'd say...
and also, around here, that's called "Preki-ball"....something not looked upon very fondly.

Not a cop out at all, I don't have the resources or time to do a definitive coach search. I don't have the knowledge of other leagues or the staff to do so. I want the right choice. given the resources I likely could answer this I don't thus I can't. I'd love to try to bring back Carl Robinson if he doesn't stay in Vancouver. But I don't know enough about that situation to say. I don't follow other leagues enough to make a educated suggestion. As such I don't.

As for the beginning of the season.. the issues I saw then are what are causing our issues now. We couldn't score anywhere near the pace we did last year. That lack of Offensive strength and the give Seba the ball (even with Jozy on the pitch) strategy mixed with the get a goal and defend strategy all have lead to the issues we have now. The lack of Offensive options (Ricketts is not the solution) means that we have regularly been beaten. The injuries are secondary to the over all issue of a lack of ability to finish. Due to strategy, tactics, Player aquisition and constantly playing a slumping player as your primarily outlet rather than playing him back and letting him provide service.

We have 2 Attacking DPs that we aren't getting out money's worth out of. One due to pressure and one because he likely shouldn't be here. Ricketts might be a good replacement for Jozy long term or if we play him and Hamilton with Seba in a AM or Wing position. (until Jozy is back)

We have a load of issues.

But a lot of people saw the results of the game and felt it was good enough.. and that is ok.. I didn't because I knew if anything happened we were screwed... and hey look.. we have performed very badly.

[Fort York Redcoat]

In fact looking at maybe Iceland's coach.

Can he practice here with his Dentists degree, though?

[TFC Tifoso]

Not a cop out at all, I don't have the resources or time to do a definitive coach search. I don't have the knowledge of other leagues or the staff to do so. I want the right choice. given the resources I likely could answer this I don't thus I can't. I'd love to try to bring back Carl Robinson if he doesn't stay in Vancouver. But I don't know enough about that situation to say. I don't follow other leagues enough to make a educated suggestion. As such I don't.

As for the beginning of the season.. the issues I saw then are what are causing our issues now. We couldn't score anywhere near the pace we did last year. That lack of Offensive strength and the give Seba the ball (even with Jozy on the pitch) strategy mixed with the get a goal and defend strategy all have lead to the issues we have now. The lack of Offensive options (Ricketts is not the solution) means that we have regularly been beaten. The injuries are secondary to the over all issue of a lack of ability to finish. Due to strategy, tactics, Player aquisition and constantly playing a slumping player as your primarily outlet rather than playing him back and letting him provide service.

We have 2 Attacking DPs that we aren't getting out money's worth out of. One due to pressure and one because he likely shouldn't be here. Ricketts might be a good replacement for Jozy long term or if we play him and Hamilton with Seba in a AM or Wing position. (until Jozy is back)

We have a load of issues.

But a lot of people saw the results of the game and felt it was good enough.. and that is ok.. I didn't because I knew if anything happened we were screwed... and hey look.. we have performed very badly.

Ok some fair points here....though I don't agree with them all, I can at least understand your point.

I'm not asking to do a definitive search....lord knows I don't have the time to do it lol. But there's not much to do in that regard anyways....
Again, using the narrative of what people want here, an "experienced MLS coach with track record", you have 2 options....Bruce Arena and Sigi Schmidt....that's that.
And aside from being a fan favourite (I love the guy too), what has Robbo done which would make him a big improvement over Vanney?

I get what you are trying to say about our team scoring, but its a matter of opinion I guess.
I've been looking at it as this year the team was simply making an effort to putting the focus of success on team defence, and most offseason pick ups pointed to this (Beitashour, Moor, Irwin).
Offensively, we're very similar to last year minus some depth like Moore, Jackson, and Gomez.....all of whom played little anyways or at least not enough to make this drastic of a change in the big picture imo.

To me our issues lie mainly with depth and that's not Vanney's problem.....its Bez's.
I'll press anybody to remove any of a teams top 4-5 players in MLS for a month+ and tell me which team would not have a drop off like we are seeing now.

Agree with your comments on Altidore though.....

[Kaz]

Can he practice here with his Dentists degree, though?

My tongue was in my cheek a little with that. However my point was that we need to find the right coach, one that can work with the system we have. Finding a coach from a league or organization like Ajax or even a Premier League club or even a top Championship club that is buying their way to the Premiership isn't the right way to hire. You want to find a club that is able to get the best out of their players and snag them. It isn't that Europeans can't coach in MLS it is that not all coaches can and we need to find the right coach that has a proven record of coaching with players similar to what we have.

I think the GM position is one to find inside MLS but the Coach can.. if done correctly... come from outside. The key is looking for the right attributes, which we often don't do. John Carver could likely have been the right coach at the time if it was not for Mo. Preki was a MLS 1.5 Coach in MLS 2.0 and he just wasn't right, Aaron Winter was set up to fail and was never the right coach as he was a youth coach from a organization with much more resources that you get in MLS. Ryan Nelson was just an odd choice. Greg Vanney was a choice that was better than Ryan Nelson but seemed to be a back up to Ryan Nelson.

Over all we have never attempted to get the best coach possible prior to MO who was generally the issue previous. Preki was the closet thing but was the wrong coach for the time... though it was harder to know that at the time.


We need to do a proper search if get a good coach. One with training and ability to function in a limited resource environment. My mention of Iceland was though tongue in cheek was a reference to that. Limited resources with varying levels of skill finding some success. He recently signed a new contract with Iceland I doubt we could get him. He has been the Iceland coach for several years and has the right experience. He is basically the kind of coach we should be looking for.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^And yet he's never won anything for the club he managed. Just saying that wouldn't go over well to many.

[Kaz]

I get what you are trying to say about our team scoring, but its a matter of opinion I guess.
I've been looking at it as this year the team was simply making an effort to putting the focus of success on team defence, and most offseason pick ups pointed to this (Beitashour, Moor, Irwin).
Offensively, we're very similar to last year minus some depth like Moore, Jackson, and Gomez.....all of whom played little anyways or at least not enough to make this drastic of a change in the big picture imo.

A lot of people think this but the stats don't lie. We have the same Goal differential as we did last year. We are in the same place as we were last year. (set to maybe squeak into the playoffs) We are averageing 1.1 goals a game this year and we averaged 1.7 last year. We needed to increase out goal differential not decrease goals against. There is an important distinction. If you decrease your goals against at the expense of goals for you achieve nothing. You need to decrease goals against while maintaining goals scored at a similar or great level.

By removing 4 offensive pieces and replacing them with draft picks, while adding Will Johnson and not adding an experienced winger on the right we lost out on a avenue of attack.

Last year we played Bradley at the top of the diamond Cheyrou at the back. This year that is often reversed. Will Johnson hasn't really provided the kind of service needed to Giovinco.

This has weakened our attack significantly and placed too much pressure on Gio. Part of the reason he is having a hard time is he has 4 players on him much of the time. Yet we don't capitalize on that. The expectation placed on him to be are sole point of attacking through put is likely a major part of why he is an inch off. He is thinking too much. Because we don't have the offensive strength we had last year.

In the end though. Vanney too a team that was exciting to watch last year with a 0 goal differential but one of the highest goals scored and replaced them with a much less exciting team to watch with the same goal differential with nearly the lowest number of goal scored. (only 3 teams have scored fewer than we have)

We are just using injuries as an excuse. This is the issue we have had all season.. we all knew injuries and international duty was going to happen, The back 4 really haven't had many injuries. We are scoring the same number of goals as we were at the beginning of the season. In the end that .6 goals a game we stopped scoring to make our defense better.. but significantly better than we needed to make it.. is the reason we are such a poor team this year. Vanney decided to rely to heavily on 1 or 2 players to great their own chances. Jozy needs service. His time at Sunderland shows what happens when he doesn't get service. last year he got service and scored. This year.. no service no goals. Gio is the one with the ball all the time and defenders swarm him. His confidence has been shaken and he is missing. That is the reason we are loosing.. it has nothing to do with the injuries. And the stats support this. The missing piece is that Gio hasn't scored a goal in the last 8 games he has played. Scoring 4-5 goals in the last 8 he played would have resulted in likely 4-6 extra points. Which would be likely 7th in league and 2nd or 3rd in the Conference. Part of that is also the fact that many of his goals came from assists from Jozy and Will. That means the majority of our offense was coming through 3 players. While last year it was coming from more sources. Seba was scoring but it wasn't the same players assisting his goals. Last year up to this point 9 different players had assists most multiple assists on Seba goals (4 of which are not here any more). Only 5 players this year have assists on his goals. He isn't getting the service he was.

Our Offensive performance and the pressure placed on Giovinco is a major part of the issue... and that is again on two people. You can't score goals if your goal scorers aren't getting good service.

[Kaz]

^And yet he's never won anything for the club he managed. Just saying that wouldn't go over well to many.

When you manage Iceland a nation with 300,000 people and you make it to the Quarter Finals of the Euros that is actually fairly good. That is actually impressive. The key is not what looks good.. we aren't hiring a trophy wife for a gay Actor in the 60s we are looking for a Football Coach.


Though honestly I think I have said all I can on the Vanney and the whole we aren't playing well because he choose to do something that I thought was dumb early in the season and was worried it would bite us on the ass.. and it has. My opinion hasn't changed and everything that has happened as just confirmed my fears.

[ag futbol]

Fans seem to forget that the purpose of MLS was not just to develop American players, but American coaches as well. Vanney has probably been targeted by the MLS FO that he is young and talented enough to do well, so they would prefer he kept coaching at this level, learning as he goes and developing into the next Bruce Arena and take over the Galaxy.

Go learn in the USL or NCAA. Playing in the top division in a team with a top 3 payroll is not your training wheels.

The truth is we are not paying a lot for coaches in this league in general. Hence, it's hard to get someone out of a stable job elsewhere, even if it's "less prestigious".

I wouldn't consider a tenured NCAA coach a rookie by any means. They bring a lot to the table.

[Initial B]

If there was any truth to this, why would MLS ever allow foreigners to coach any MLS teams?

Look at the clubs: 14 of 17 clubs have american coaches. The only non-American coaches are Viera at NYCFC, Pareja at FCD and Paunović in Chicago. The latter both have MLS experience and Vieira is Vieira (and a Man City choice). They don't care too much about the Canadian Team coaches, but I think they see something in Vanney. I expect he won't leave until one of the new expansion teams get up and running (I'm betting LAFC).

[Fort York Redcoat]

When you manage Iceland a nation with 300,000 people and you make it to the Quarter Finals of the Euros that is actually fairly good. That is actually impressive. The key is not what looks good.. we aren't hiring a trophy wife for a gay Actor in the 60s we are looking for a Football Coach.


Though honestly I think I have said all I can on the Vanney and the whole we aren't playing well because he choose to do something that I thought was dumb early in the season and was worried it would bite us on the ass.. and it has. My opinion hasn't changed and everything that has happened as just confirmed my fears.

Ok well making it to the Euro Quarter Finals looks good. We aren't looking for what looks good. We are looking for a Football Coach. He wasn't successful with a club. We are a club team.

I agree with others here that more focus should be on successful coaches from the "minors."

[Kaz]

Ok well making it to the Euro Quarter Finals looks good. We aren't looking for what looks good. We are looking for a Football Coach. He wasn't successful with a club. We are a club team.

Which is why I have said I'd leave it to Manning because I don't have the knowledge base or the resources to make a informed suggestion. Though a coach that can work with something similar where you have limited resources and can still achieve is a good thing. Which is why I mentioned him.

[Kamp Berg]

How about Ron Jan's from PEC Zwolle? They have no money, actually went bankrupt in 1990, but he takes nobodies and turns them into surprise successes and made the finals last year as well! May not be the answer but certainly worth looking into someone like him.

[Oldtimer]

Unhappy Kreis is off to Orlando. That does only leave Arena and Sigi. Arena wants to live on the West coast, so we are left with Sigi, who AFAIK is not available. We are stuck with Vanney, and we now should be looking at Bez a d whether he can deliver.

[Ultra & Proud]

How about Ron Jan's from PEC Zwolle? They have no money, actually went bankrupt in 1990, but he takes nobodies and turns them into surprise successes and made the finals last year as well! May not be the answer but certainly worth looking into someone like him.

No sense in rolling the dice on an import who may never 'get' MLS. I'd stick with Vanney until Orlando sacks Kreis sometime next year.

[PopePouri]

Unhappy Kreis is off to Orlando. That does only leave Arena and Sigi. Arena wants to live on the West coast, so we are left with Sigi, who AFAIK is not available. We are stuck with Vanney, and we now should be looking at Bez a d whether he can deliver.

Mike Petke?

[Ultra & Proud]

Mike Petke?

I really wanted him in the off season but now I don't know. Maybe in the off season again because I think he would cause a big stir initially and unsettle the roster. We'd probably tank most of the second half. Also he must have been a right dick to work himself out of the league after all he accomplished in so short a time with NYRB. I know the fight with upper management but there must be even more to it.