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  1. #391
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    What was Giovinco's goal scoring rate last year with Jozy in/out of the lineup?

  2. #392
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    As much as I wan't Vanney out and generally have never cared for the hire, is what would come after?

    We all want something better, whether it's experience, past success, whatever. We say "there's no cap on the manager" which is true, but overlooking something here.

    The change at the top of MLSE has signaled something very clear to all of Toronto. Whether it's jersey ads for hockey, ticket increases across the board, whatever, this new era of MLSE, post Tim L, is about making money, not spending it.

    Our next managerial hire may not be what you want. I would wager they aren't going to be reaching any deeper in their pockets for this than they already have.

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    As much as I wan't Vanney out and generally have never cared for the hire, is what would come after?

    We all want something better, whether it's experience, past success, whatever. We say "there's no cap on the manager" which is true, but overlooking something here.

    The change at the top of MLSE has signaled something very clear to all of Toronto. Whether it's jersey ads for hockey, ticket increases across the board, whatever, this new era of MLSE, post Tim L, is about making money, not spending it.

    Our next managerial hire may not be what you want. I would wager they aren't going to be reaching any deeper in their pockets for this than they already have.
    This was one of my biggest concerns as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I've lettered these to reference easier

    a) The only real chance was the cup run where we went with Irwin exclusive. Argued either way but nobody complained at the time.
    b) Apart from Zavleta, who now has the starters spot, and the rotating crew of Endoh and Delgado and if you can still count him as a youngster, Osorio
    c) Hamilton wasn't the backup choice - it was Babouli who was involved. Hamilton grabbed that spot through his play in and after the VCup. We were all saying he wasn't very good only 3 months ago.
    d) How? Lots of people say Giovinco should be played out left or as an AM. He's not going to do that and his defensive capabilities are limited. He's a two man forward playing off of somebody.
    e) ACTUALLY, until the SJE game, pretty much everybody was saying how the subs were working out fine. And Vanney himself gave the rationale for the subs in San Jose, saying he would probably do that differently now.
    I really don't know how Gio could be used better, but this is a domino effect of not having the any fwds left on the roster. Perhaps this is on Bez but we knew we would be in trouble if Gio went on a slump. Perhaps this is self inflicted or perhaps part of a capped league. capped league plus internationals = bad news

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    As much as I wan't Vanney out and generally have never cared for the hire, is what would come after?

    We all want something better, whether it's experience, past success, whatever. We say "there's no cap on the manager" which is true, but overlooking something here.

    The change at the top of MLSE has signaled something very clear to all of Toronto. Whether it's jersey ads for hockey, ticket increases across the board, whatever, this new era of MLSE, post Tim L, is about making money, not spending it.

    Our next managerial hire may not be what you want. I would wager they aren't going to be reaching any deeper in their pockets for this than they already have.
    Bill Manning when working at RSL had very limited funds, I would not worry about money, its been proven that successful teams in MLS don't have to spend ludicrous amounts of money.

    The cost of TFC is basically the salary of Demar Derozan, TFC is lunch money for MLSE, now you could say that relative to how much money they bring in its not good, but like I said, I would not worry about how much we spend.

    If it means we get better scouts/development plan then so be it, just win, whether its through getting game changers like Gio or bringing in nobodies that can win who cares.

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.Ronaldo View Post
    I really don't know how Gio could be used better, but this is a domino effect of not having the any fwds left on the roster. Perhaps this is on Bez but we knew we would be in trouble if Gio went on a slump. Perhaps this is self inflicted or perhaps part of a capped league. capped league plus internationals = bad news
    Has little to do with not having forwards although a healthy Jozy would help. Has a lot more to do with no one to facilitate the ball forward through midfield, wide or direct, and the only way to remedy this is to add to the roster. That's Bez's supposed department. We'll see if he's up to it or just enjoying the summer from his perch.

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Has little to do with not having forwards although a healthy Jozy would help. Has a lot more to do with no one to facilitate the ball forward through midfield, wide or direct, and the only way to remedy this is to add to the roster. That's Bez's supposed department. We'll see if he's up to it or just enjoying the summer from his perch.
    +1

    Bez and everybody else thought Seba was going to be an AM. Still haven't filled that need. The braintrust thought Osorio and Chapman deputising go do the job - they havn't consistently enough.

    Need an AM.

  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    +1

    Bez and everybody else thought Seba was going to be an AM. Still haven't filled that need. The braintrust thought Osorio and Chapman deputising go do the job - they havn't consistently enough.

    Need an AM.
    im still perplexed by how they thought he was an AM when the first thing Gio said was that hes an outright fwd

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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post

    There's something being overlooked, however. Something that could be putting pressure on president Bill Manning. I'll have more on this during the summer, potentially.

    Larson
    Hi Kurt,

    Tis mid summer, any (potential) elaboration on this?

    Thanks

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super View Post
    FACK

  12. #402
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    So Vanney until the end of the season then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super View Post
    MAJOR SARCASM WARNING!!!
    Great, are we going to get to watch the other expansion team pass us in success now? Probably end up winning the damn cup next year! It's okay though, we'll always have 2018 or 2019 or 2020.

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Bill Manning when working at RSL had very limited funds, I would not worry about money, its been proven that successful teams in MLS don't have to spend ludicrous amounts of money.

    The cost of TFC is basically the salary of Demar Derozan, TFC is lunch money for MLSE, now you could say that relative to how much money they bring in its not good, but like I said, I would not worry about how much we spend.

    If it means we get better scouts/development plan then so be it, just win, whether its through getting game changers like Gio or bringing in nobodies that can win who cares.
    It's not about spending ludicrous amounts of money, cause they already have. Time to flip that script as that's why things changed at the top.

    Don't let the DeRozan deal blind you to this. My belief is if Vanney goes, it'll be another 100K a year "who the fuck is this guy" manager. This may be better, or worse, just saying not to expect more.

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    Well there goes Kreis. Let's hope Seattle tanks hard so that Sigi is sacked and we have a decent option if we fire Vanney.

  16. #406
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    Keep Vanney now. No better options available.

    Edit: Now it's up to Bez to make Vanney's job easier. That's something he hasn't done in his time here, for him or Nelsen.
    Last edited by Ultra & Proud; 07-19-2016 at 04:59 PM.

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    Sigi could be out sooner rather than later...

  18. #408
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    I'd think real hard about hiring Schmid. He's been having a lot of health problems last few years. He could just drop dead on the job any moment.

    "
    Hell is always loose here. It can't break loose again
    ."
    -Fort York Redcoat, on the state of TFC

  19. #409
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    Surprised he jumped at that. He just came out of one dysfunctional situation and may well be going into another.

    I hope the low tax rate in Florida made it worth while. He could easily be on his ass again in 16 months after another foreign owner thrusts unreasonable expectations on his head.

    I think the NCAA guys deserve serious consideration. No reason why someone like sasho cirovski couldn't be as effective as Porter. Otherwise I might see if Oscar Pareja couldn't be pried out of Dallas with a big offer.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 07-19-2016 at 05:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Hi Kurt,

    Tis mid summer, any (potential) elaboration on this?

    Thanks
    Bump

  21. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    What was Giovinco's goal scoring rate last year with Jozy in/out of the lineup?
    Just looked through last year's boxscores. Obviously I missed a couple of games but playing with Jozy, Giovinco had 12 goals and 10 assists in 23 games. Playing without Jozy, he had 10 goals and 3 assists in 10 games. Roughly a point a game either way, but it was more balanced when they played together. Without Jozy, Giovinco scored more, assisted less.

  22. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by shorty View Post
    Just looked through last year's boxscores. Obviously I missed a couple of games but playing with Jozy, Giovinco had 12 goals and 10 assists in 23 games. Playing without Jozy, he had 10 goals and 3 assists in 10 games. Roughly a point a game either way, but it was more balanced when they played together. Without Jozy, Giovinco scored more, assisted less.
    thats the point I was making. Thanks for the stats.
    This Jozy missing excuse is a smoke screen for Seba's performance.

  23. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by shorty View Post
    Just looked through last year's boxscores. Obviously I missed a couple of games but playing with Jozy, Giovinco had 12 goals and 10 assists in 23 games. Playing without Jozy, he had 10 goals and 3 assists in 10 games. Roughly a point a game either way, but it was more balanced when they played together. Without Jozy, Giovinco scored more, assisted less.

    I just got bored enough to do this as well.


    Seba's Goal/Assist rate without Jozy was .83/42 per game. However both of Seba's hat tricks happened without Jozy if you count those games as anomalies then is rate was .4/.36

    Seba's Goal/Assist rate with Jozy was .48/4 per game.


    This is also including 6 games where Substitutions were made 4 with Jozy being subed on where I included his goals before and after separately and where Giovinco was subbed off and on in two game respectively where I only counted the time he was on the pitch. I didn't do it by minutes. If I had the numbers would be even closer to parity than they already are.


    As such you can only conclude that last year Giovinco when played with or without Jozy averaged about the same number of Goals and Assists. In fact straight data would show that he would likely score more often.

    Gio is off this year, either due to too much pressure put on him, or a lower standard of play. It is clear more pressure is being placed on him. He is making on average 1 extra shot per game this year than last but averaging about the same number on goal as last year. Gio is taking more shots but fewer of them are quality. This is likely due to more pressure being put on him. This is also visible in over all stats.

    Last year Seba made 38% of all shots and accounted for 43% of all shots on Goal. This year he accounts for 44% of shots but only 42% of those on Goal.

    Thus we have Giovinco taking on average 1 extra shot that isn't going to goal because there isn't enough support as the rest of the team isn't taking the extra shot as we are taking on average the same 13.7 shots per game we did last year and averaging 4.47 shots on goal .5 shots fewer a game than last years 4.97

    This shows that the team who are playing a weaker offensive game with a good playmaker regulated to DM and little support from other players who are taking fewer shots them selves giving Seba the ball more often and everyone is missing the goal more often. The shots we are taking are weaker as well.

    Basically we are playing worse than we were last year with less offensive passion and discipline, missing several pieces that we had last year and not taking advantage of the chances we are given.


    All of this can be placed on the shoulders of two people. The ones motivating the team, picking the give Gio the ball strategy, and responsible for player trades. Bez and Vanney.

    Firing them at this point isn't helpful. This season is a write off though. Manning needs to be out looking for their replacements. Both Bez and Vanney need to be gone a day after the last game of the season and a new staff ready to come in within a month.

    Vanney does not have the ability to get the last 20% to make a winning team.

  24. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    All of this can be placed on the shoulders of two people. The ones motivating the team, picking the give Gio the ball strategy, and responsible for player trades. Bez and Vanney.

    Firing them at this point isn't helpful. This season is a write off though. Manning needs to be out looking for their replacements. Both Bez and Vanney need to be gone a day after the last game of the season and a new staff ready to come in within a month.

    Vanney does not have the ability to get the last 20% to make a winning team.
    There are 10 outfield starting players. Toronto FC has been missing roughly 40% of theirs most of the season. And its goalkeeper, who was also a very good signing in the offseason. Why is this just overlooked by so many people? Look at Dallas without its starters? It lost 5-0 in Seattle.

    Toronto FC is 3-1-1 when mostly healthy (all three DPs starting and playing at least 45 minutes) this season. Just take a step back and see where this team is in October.

    Firing management means everything will be blown up. There will be multiple staff changes. A number of current players would likely go. It would start a new rebuild process.

    This team doesn't need to be rebuilt. It needs to be healthy. The injuries have been unfortunate.
    Last edited by KurtLarSUN; 07-20-2016 at 06:13 AM.

  25. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post
    There are 10 outfield starting players. Toronto FC is missing roughly 40% of theirs most of the season. And its goalkeeper, who was also a very good signing in the offseason. Why is this just overlooked by so many people? Look at Dallas without its starters? It lost 5-0 in Seattle.

    Toronto FC is 3-1-1 with a fully healthy starting this season. Just take a step back and see where this team is in October?

    Firing management means everything is blown up. Staff changes. Players change would likely change. It would start a new rebuild process.

    This team doesn't need to be rebuilt. It needs to be healthy. The injuries have been unfortunate.
    All good points. Quick question though, there was extensive talk about avoiding injuries this year, like they had some sort of answer to the problem. Looks to me like we have more injuries than last year. I think where everyone is getting fed up is there always seems to be a lot of talk from the FO but very little tangible results. At what point is it acceptable to call bullshit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamp Berg View Post
    All good points. Quick question though, there was extensive talk about avoiding injuries this year, like they had some sort of answer to the problem. Looks to me like we have more injuries than last year. I think where everyone is getting fed up is there always seems to be a lot of talk from the FO but very little tangible results. At what point is it acceptable to call bullshit?
    Bradley and Johnson injuries were "contact" injuries. Staff can't be blamed for them.
    Clint Irwin's injury was strange, but I have a hard time blaming staff for that, especially given the technology that goes into it.
    And they think they've found the solution for Altidore following bio-mechanical work in Los Angeles. Turns our Altidore's glutes haven't been firing properly, putting more stress on his hamstrings. We'll see.
    For a reminder of how good Toronto FC can be, go back and watch the FC Dallas match, the last time TFC's three DPs, Will Johnson and Clint Irwin finished a half together.
    Last edited by KurtLarSUN; 07-20-2016 at 06:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post
    Bradley and Johnson injuries were "contact" injuries. Staff can't be blamed for them.
    Clint Irwin's injury was strange, but I have a hard time blaming staff for that, especially given the technology that goes into it.
    And they think they've found the solution for Altidore following bio-mechanical work in Los Angeles. Turns our Altidore's glutes haven't been firing properly, putting more stress on his hamstrings. We'll see.
    For a reminder of how good Toronto FC can be, go back and watch the FC Dallas match, the last time TFC's three DPs, Will Johnson and Clint Irwin finished a half together.
    Even with all the team together there is still a question of whether there is enough dependable width with pace to make a legit playoff run. Shield challenge is done already pretty much.

  28. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtLarSUN View Post
    Bradley and Johnson injuries were "contact" injuries. Staff can't be blamed for them.
    Clint Irwin's injury was strange, but I have a hard time blaming staff for that, especially given the technology that goes into it.
    And they think they've found the solution for Altidore following bio-mechanical work in Los Angeles. Turns our Altidore's glutes haven't been firing properly, putting more stress on his hamstrings. We'll see.
    For a reminder of how good Toronto FC can be, go back and watch the FC Dallas match, the last time TFC's three DPs, Will Johnson and Clint Irwin finished a half together.
    They JUST found that out? As a runner, your generally look at this as the first issue when you have hamstring problems. I would blame staff for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    I just got bored enough to do this as well.


    Seba's Goal/Assist rate without Jozy was .83/42 per game. However both of Seba's hat tricks happened without Jozy if you count those games as anomalies then is rate was .4/.36

    Seba's Goal/Assist rate with Jozy was .48/4 per game.


    This is also including 6 games where Substitutions were made 4 with Jozy being subed on where I included his goals before and after separately and where Giovinco was subbed off and on in two game respectively where I only counted the time he was on the pitch. I didn't do it by minutes. If I had the numbers would be even closer to parity than they already are.


    As such you can only conclude that last year Giovinco when played with or without Jozy averaged about the same number of Goals and Assists. In fact straight data would show that he would likely score more often.

    Gio is off this year, either due to too much pressure put on him, or a lower standard of play. It is clear more pressure is being placed on him. He is making on average 1 extra shot per game this year than last but averaging about the same number on goal as last year. Gio is taking more shots but fewer of them are quality. This is likely due to more pressure being put on him. This is also visible in over all stats.

    Last year Seba made 38% of all shots and accounted for 43% of all shots on Goal. This year he accounts for 44% of shots but only 42% of those on Goal.

    Thus we have Giovinco taking on average 1 extra shot that isn't going to goal because there isn't enough support as the rest of the team isn't taking the extra shot as we are taking on average the same 13.7 shots per game we did last year and averaging 4.47 shots on goal .5 shots fewer a game than last years 4.97

    This shows that the team who are playing a weaker offensive game with a good playmaker regulated to DM and little support from other players who are taking fewer shots them selves giving Seba the ball more often and everyone is missing the goal more often. The shots we are taking are weaker as well.

    Basically we are playing worse than we were last year with less offensive passion and discipline, missing several pieces that we had last year and not taking advantage of the chances we are given.


    All of this can be placed on the shoulders of two people. The ones motivating the team, picking the give Gio the ball strategy, and responsible for player trades. Bez and Vanney.

    Firing them at this point isn't helpful. This season is a write off though. Manning needs to be out looking for their replacements. Both Bez and Vanney need to be gone a day after the last game of the season and a new staff ready to come in within a month.

    Vanney does not have the ability to get the last 20% to make a winning team.
    Thanks for doing that. Confirms what I thought. I think people have overplayed Altidore's effect on Seba's goal scoring, to underplay both Jozy's and Seba's poor form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Thanks for doing that. Confirms what I thought. I think people have overplayed Altidore's effect on Seba's goal scoring, to underplay both Jozy's and Seba's poor form.
    So I still think that we will see Seba's totals go up when Altidore comes back.
    For me, the Altidore factor is about getting Seba's an extra half second or even an extra step to fine tune his approach to the net.
    IMO - That is what is off right now with his game.


    With that being said, I do think that he is going through a rough patch right now and it can be categorized as under performing.
    And TBH - this is probably why he wasn't selected for the Euro squad - You don't get that extra moment at the top level

    And to bring it back on topic - I have doubts that 95% of MLS level coaches can coach him out of this funk - Vanney included
    Last edited by jabbronies; 07-20-2016 at 09:29 AM.

 

 

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