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  1. #1351
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Atlanta got Tata, nyfc got Vieira. The
    league is obviously becoming now attractive to significant coaching talent. If it’s there
    when we have to hire, why Not hire it. Maybe the issue with foreign coaches wasn’t the arcane system but the lack of talent at coaching
    Neither Tata nor Vieira had to study the dark arts of MLS roster rules and how it relate to transfers. They also bounced off a couple of years after when a bigger opportunity found itself. The type of coaches from overseas that want to come here has ambitions to use MLS teams as a launch point for bigger clubs elsewhere.

    It's a big reason why the manager system failed in the past. Most coaches who are former players have zero qualifications that would allow them to transfer any skills from the pitch into an office setting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noimpactinmtl View Post
    Neither Tata nor Vieira had to study the dark arts of MLS roster rules and how it relate to transfers. They also bounced off a couple of years after when a bigger opportunity found itself. The type of coaches from overseas that want to come here has ambitions to use MLS teams as a launch point for bigger clubs elsewhere.

    It's a big reason why the manager system failed in the past. Most coaches who are former players have zero qualifications that would allow them to transfer any skills from the pitch into an office setting.
    The coach shouldn’t have to study arcane MLS rules — that’s the job of the GM.

    In Europe the coaches don’t really sign anyone either. They also don’t know what is required to comply with FFP or how to deal with fax machines or whatever.

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    I'll believe an argument that decent - even good - foreign managers won't come here when either MLSE goes broke or they stop going to China, Saudi, etcetera.

    The only way a foreigner doesn't coach this team is if the FO decides against it (or fails to explore it).

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    Strangely enough, with Nick Nurse leading the Raptors to win the NBA, we now have had two MLSE teams win their respective leagues with coaches who did not have any first team experience of being a head coach.

    While I'd love having a big name coach for the notoriety (I think Wenger would do particularly well in MLS), maybe there are intangibles that a good GM can find in a less experienced coach that predicts success. Certainly Vanney deserves credit for his part in winning with a strong team, even if he has struggled somewhat recently with getting a weaker team on point.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-16-2019 at 09:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Strangely enough, with Nick Nurse leading the Raptors to win the NBA, we now have had two MLSE teams win their respective leagues with coaches who did not have any first team experience of being a head coach.

    While I'd love having a big name coach for the notoriety (I think Wenger would do particularly well in MLS), maybe there are intangibles that a good GM can find in a less experienced coach that predicts success. Certainly Vanney deserves credit for his part in winning with a strong team, even if he has struggled somewhat recently with getting a weaker team on point.
    Good observation.

    Coaches matter a lot less than people think in most sports (I think football may be the exception)
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  6. #1356
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    Default My critique of the Attack & Vanney

    In 2015, Sebastian Giovinco arrived, along with Jozy Altidore & those 2, along with Bradley, changed the mindset of this team. We were not going to settle. We were going to win.

    The key to that team winning was getting the ball into the creative players & watching them do their magic - Bradley moving the ball around the back, Seba taking it on & Jozy finishing when Seba didn't. And a LOT of that creative work & heavy lifting & shooting was done by Seba

    2015 Seba 22 goals 15 assists
    2016 17 goals 14 assists
    2017 16 goals 6 assists
    2018 13 goals 8 assists


    At one point, they brought in Vasquez & he was able to provide that technical ability.

    And when you've got Seba & Victor & Jozy, you just give them the ball. Heck, Seba demanded it. And so this team got used to just that. When you have the ball out wide, look for Seba or Jozy. When you have the ball near the box, look for Seba or Jozy. When you have the ball ANYWHERE, look for Victor or Seba or Jozy. And God help the player that did not feed Seba.

    The only guy that seemed willing to break into this triumverate of "give them the ball" was Osorio. The rest of them never gave themselves the chance, never were given the chance & never did take the opportunities to take a shot, to make that run, to receive that pass if they did a run. Only Osorio showed a willingness to do those things. We saw games where NOBODY ran, nobody tried a shot, nobody tried a pass because Seba & VV wasn't there. Sure, guys didn't trust people not named Seba, Victor, Jozy or Osorio to get a pass but that didn't matter because those 4 were around & they would figure out a way.

    And then we come to preseason 2019.


    I still maintain that the brain trust thought through November & December while doing their planning that the team were going to keep both Seba & Victor. So, you go into spring training thinking, "Hey, we don't need to work on shooting or creating chances or taking risks or playing the ball to runners other then the creatives because...they are going to be there."

    And then

    BOOM

    Victor is injured & has an opportunity so he's gone

    then a couple of weeks later near the end of training camp for the CCL

    BOOM BOOM

    Seba wants to talk, his demands are too high for the team, he has an offer & he goes.

    Suddenly this team has lost 2 guys that ALL of them, from the President on down, thought were going to be around to carry that load of being that creative on the pitch.

    QUICK
    Sign Jozy

    QUICK
    Get another creative in

    But wait....Jozy needs service.

    And Pozuelo needs somebody to make some runs.

    So a team that for years had no width, had no speed, had guile only in a few & used the brute strength of Jozy & the artistry of VV & Seba with the occasional addition of Osorio....now that team had to find a way to attack. Unfortunately, we had the false dawn of the NYC game where everybody thought Pozuelo was going to murder this league all season on his own - turns out that was just NYC giving him space - something nobody has done since. But, that false dawn allowed the rest of the team not named Osorio to say "oh, he's the new Seba - just feed Poz". Now thankfully there is one guy out there not doing this but as much as I like DeLeon, he can only do so much. So we end up with a "feed the Poz" machine couple with a "lets get it up there & just stop" approach.

    This

    THIS is on the coach


    You simply can NOT let a team do this. Now, Vanney has said time & time again "We are not moving the ball quick enough. Not making the runs. Not making the passes." At some point though, its HIS responsibility to yell at them enough to get it through their noggins that they all have to try to play with pace, to make the passes, to try. I get it, the preseason time to make this adjustment didn't happen.

    BUT, its time that somebody told them that they HAVE TO BEGIN TO TRUST PEOPLE NOT NAMED JOZY OR OSORIO OR POZUELO WITH GETTING A PASS. (the funny thing is Pozuelo trusts others and when players decide to make those runs, he gives them the ball - just not enough of them making those runs)

    Vanney has to get a consistant attacking system in place for this team. He didn't have to do one before but he has to now.

    And as much as people, including me, say we are not good enough due to our defence, and its true - our defence is slow, reactive, does not think as defenders & the rest of the team not named Bradley seems to have given up on trying to defend - the biggest issue with the coach is not the defence - its the lack of a systemic approach to attack that actually tries something when the ball is not in the hands of the few technical players.

    Sure, a wide attacking player might help in this regard. But its still not get Bradley & Fraser & Chapman & Delgado to try a ball into a forward or to take a shot from distance.

    If Vanney is going to stay next season (and that only happens if we somehow manage to make the playoffs), he HAS to fix this. He should fix it now, but I think the players have too many excuses in their heads about outside things to not see what is going on on the pitch.



    Edit:

    And you know what, we actually DID that versus SKC. And versus San Jose. So its not like this team can't do it. It just need to get it through their thick skulls that they can do that ALL GAME LONG & in every game.
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 06-22-2019 at 10:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    In 2015, Sebastian Giovinco arrived, along with Jozy Altidore & those 2, along with Bradley, changed the mindset of this team. We were not going to settle. We were going to win.

    The key to that team winning was getting the ball into the creative players & watching them do their magic - Bradley moving the ball around the back, Seba taking it on & Jozy finishing when Seba didn't. And a LOT of that creative work & heavy lifting & shooting was done by Seba

    2015 Seba 22 goals 15 assists
    2016 17 goals 14 assists
    2017 16 goals 6 assists
    2018 13 goals 8 assists


    At one point, they brought in Vasquez & he was able to provide that technical ability.

    And when you've got Seba & Victor & Jozy, you just give them the ball. Heck, Seba demanded it. And so this team got used to just that. When you have the ball out wide, look for Seba or Jozy. When you have the ball near the box, look for Seba or Jozy. When you have the ball ANYWHERE, look for Victor or Seba or Jozy. And God help the player that did not feed Seba.

    The only guy that seemed willing to break into this triumverate of "give them the ball" was Osorio. The rest of them never gave themselves the chance, never were given the chance & never did take the opportunities to take a shot, to make that run, to receive that pass if they did a run. Only Osorio showed a willingness to do those things. We saw games where NOBODY ran, nobody tried a shot, nobody tried a pass because Seba & VV wasn't there. Sure, guys didn't trust people not named Seba, Victor, Jozy or Osorio to get a pass but that didn't matter because those 4 were around & they would figure out a way.

    And then we come to preseason 2019.


    I still maintain that the brain trust thought through November & December while doing their planning that the team were going to keep both Seba & Victor. So, you go into spring training thinking, "Hey, we don't need to work on shooting or creating chances or taking risks or playing the ball to runners other then the creatives because...they are going to be there."

    And then

    BOOM

    Victor is injured & has an opportunity so he's gone

    then a couple of weeks later near the end of training camp for the CCL

    BOOM BOOM

    Seba wants to talk, his demands are too high for the team, he has an offer & he goes.

    Suddenly this team has lost 2 guys that ALL of them, from the President on down, thought were going to be around to carry that load of being that creative on the pitch.

    QUICK
    Sign Jozy

    QUICK
    Get another creative in

    But wait....Jozy needs service.

    And Pozuelo needs somebody to make some runs.

    So a team that for years had no width, had no speed, had guile only in a few & used the brute strength of Jozy & the artistry of VV & Seba with the occasional addition of Osorio....now that team had to find a way to attack. Unfortunately, we had the false dawn of the NYC game where everybody thought Pozuelo was going to murder this league all season on his own - turns out that was just NYC giving him space - something nobody has done since. But, that false dawn allowed the rest of the team not named Osorio to say "oh, he's the new Seba - just feed Poz". Now thankfully there is one guy out there not doing this but as much as I like DeLeon, he can only do so much. So we end up with a "feed the Poz" machine couple with a "lets get it up there & just stop" approach.

    This

    THIS is on the coach


    You simply can NOT let a team do this. Now, Vanney has said time & time again "We are not moving the ball quick enough. Not making the runs. Not making the passes." At some point though, its HIS responsibility to yell at them enough to get it through their noggins that they all have to try to play with pace, to make the passes, to try. I get it, the preseason time to make this adjustment didn't happen.

    BUT, its time that somebody told them that they HAVE TO BEGIN TO TRUST PEOPLE NOT NAMED JOZY OR OSORIO OR POZUELO WITH GETTING A PASS. (the funny thing is Pozuelo trusts others and when players decide to make those runs, he gives them the ball - just not enough of them making those runs)

    Vanney has to get a consistant attacking system in place for this team. He didn't have to do one before but he has to now.

    And as much as people, including me, say we are not good enough due to our defence, and its true - our defence is slow, reactive, does not think as defenders & the rest of the team not named Bradley seems to have given up on trying to defend - the biggest issue with the coach is not the defence - its the lack of a systemic approach to attack that actually tries something when the ball is not in the hands of the few technical players.

    Sure, a wide attacking player might help in this regard. But its still not get Bradley & Fraser & Chapman & Delgado to try a ball into a forward or to take a shot from distance.

    If Vanney is going to stay next season (and that only happens if we somehow manage to make the playoffs), he HAS to fix this. He should fix it now, but I think the players have too many excuses in their heads about outside things to not see what is going on on the pitch.



    Edit:

    And you know what, we actually DID that versus SKC. And versus San Jose. So its not like this team can't do it. It just need to get it through their thick skulls that they can do that ALL GAME LONG & in every game.
    Even if he is coaching it, they're not following through. I don't doubt some of this is just roster holes and poor roster management over the last three years, but I also think he's lost the room. They play without heart.

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    It's time. He wasnt going to be here forever. He's a legend for what he has achieved but its time for a new voice and new ideas.

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    I don't think he's on thin ice. At least he's not behaving like a manager on thin ice. The line-ups he's been putting out suggest to me that he has the leeway to drop points. I mean keeping Pozuelo on the bench, STARTING Boyd and Zavs... those aren't things you do when you fear for your job.

    Guy isn't going anywhere.

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    If you were Vanney, how else would you want Toronto to line up given the roster we have? We don't have the pace to park the bus and expose the opposition on the counter, Boyd is not a good target man for Route 1 long balls, and we don't have the width needed to stretch the opposition.

    The only reason you would decide Vanney is the problem is if the academy's mediocrity has anything to do with him denying opportunities. Keep in mind, most academies only have a few players graduate to first team out of hundreds who come in, and Canada's football development is mediocre at best (we're not going to see a generation like France did). In truth, this is more of a question for Bill Manning and Ali Curtis to ask to themselves because we simply don't have the information available to make this judgement.

    Canada is at a disadvantage in terms of developing players because we don't have the population or the passion (we're one of the most apathetic football nations in the world according to Soccernomics) US has to produce players despite "Pay to Play".

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    I don’t think he is on thin ice yet but the KJ Tweet “Since winning MLS Cup TFC have played 50 MLS games. Won 15, drawn 10 & lost 25 (50%). They’ve conceded 92 goals” is so revealing and the next 4 games is no walk in the park. Not sure this is a statement on Vanney or Manning

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    I don't think he's on thin ice. At least he's not behaving like a manager on thin ice. The line-ups he's been putting out suggest to me that he has the leeway to drop points. I mean keeping Pozuelo on the bench, STARTING Boyd and Zavs... those aren't things you do when you fear for your job.

    Guy isn't going anywhere.

    Agreed - Vanney is acting like he's been told they have the horses to get them to the playoffs and will have the final pieces after the next transfer season closes. Its not like we are at Cinci levels here for ineptitude in the roster.


    Zavs is starting only because Mavinga is out - there wasn't much choice but a 3 man backline out there to blunt the speed and hope to get through the first half without conceding - almost worked until our young Canadian midfield guys didn't cover and we got punished.

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    Wanney is not a bad coach by any means. A bad coach has bad performances with a team formed from overall good or at least overall average players.
    Wanney is not a good coach by any means. A good coach has good performances with a team formed from at most overall average or overall bad players.
    It is damn simple as that, if we can analyse a longer period of time - and in our case yes, we can!

    Wanney is an average MLS coach.
    After almost 2 years of that memorable 2017 season I'm firmly convinced that he had no more than 10% influence on that year's results (including the CONCACAF champs run in 2018), and the remaing 90% was because almost all the team players peaked in that year.
    Sorry, but IMO takes a bad coach to not win all while having the highest payroll in the competition, and almost all team players having an excellent personal performance year.

    TFC had no "good" coach since it's existence, they were average or bad coaches.

    --------------------------------------

    PS: I need to differentiate the term average from the term bad. (Because I saw too many guys using here along the years the term "average" for something I would call "bad".)
    I'm not a native English speaker, so to make clear what these terms in general mean for me, here is an example:

    In a 18 team balanced national footy competition (every team playing every other team 2 times), in the final standings, the teams placed in the first 6 I would call they had a good season, teams placed 7-12 had an average season and teams placed 13-18 had a bad season.
    The "Average" is always somewhere close to the middle of the total, of the pack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaEatingYeti View Post

    Wanney is an average MLS coach.
    After almost 2 years of that memorable 2017 season I'm firmly convinced that he had no more than 10% influence on that year's results (including the CONCACAF champs run in 2018), and the remaing 90% was because almost all the team players peaked in that year.
    Sorry, but IMO takes a bad coach to not win all while having the highest payroll in the competition, and almost all team players having an excellent personal performance year.
    I'd say that Vanney is an above average MLS level coach but not a brilliant MLS level coach. He has more technical nouse than the run-of-the-mill MLS coach.

    Put say a Mariner in charge of Bradley, Giovinco, Jozy & Co and you don't have a winning side, despite the narrative that we automatically won because of our great players. IMO a majority of MLS coaches would not have used our offensive firepower as effectively as Greg did (although there's a number who would have done well with them).

    Vanney strong points: A solid tactical system for good players (most people here haven't noticed, but some other MLS coaches have been imitating his styles and formations). An ability to use several different formations and tactics to win and the ability to switch between them on the fly. An attacking, aggressive style that gets the best out of Giovincos and Jozys.

    Vanney weak points: An inability to get reasonably coordinated defense (it isn't just the players), he has depended on key players (Moor, Beitashour) to coach the back line instead of being able to come up with something coherent himself. Lack of ability to get maximum potential out of marginal players (most of the young players except for Oso). Inability to defensively grind out games (relates to the defensive coordination and lack of flexibility). Despite years of experience now, he doesn't seem to ever improve in these areas.

    He is what he is. He's very frustrating at times because he'll lose a couple of games that we ought to win then turn around and just when I'm about to write him off win a game that we ought to lose.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-24-2019 at 07:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I'd say that Vanney is an above average MLS level coach but not a brilliant MLS level coach. He has more technical nouse than the run-of-the-mill MLS coach.

    Put say a Mariner in charge of Bradley, Giovinco, Jozy & Co and you don't have a winning side, despite the narrative that we automatically won because of our great players. IMO a majority of MLS coaches would not have used our offensive firepower as effectively as Greg did (although there's a number who would have done well with them).

    Vanney strong points: A solid tactical system for good players (most people here haven't noticed, but some other MLS coaches have been imitating his styles and formations). An ability to use several different formations and tactics to win and the ability to switch between them on the fly. An attacking, aggressive style that gets the best out of Giovincos and Jozys.

    Vanney weak points: An inability to get reasonably coordinated defense (it isn't just the players), he has depended on key players (Moor, Beitashour) to coach the back line instead of being able to come up with something coherent himself. Lack of ability to get maximum potential out of marginal players (most of the young players except for Oso). Inability to defensively grind out games (relates to the defensive coordination and lack of flexibility). Despite years of experience now, he doesn't seem to ever improve in these areas.

    He is what he is. He's very frustrating at times because he'll lose a couple of games that we ought to win then turn around and just when I'm about to write him off win a game that we ought to lose.
    OK I will bite. Notwithstanding his Guardiola infatuation with the 4-3-3 that caused the Panama Root Canal, Vanney almost always plays pretty plain vanilla 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 (sometimes diamond)... you are claiming he does something unique enough that other coaches are copying it... what is this tactical innovation? Which other coaches?
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    OK I will bite. Notwithstanding his Guardiola infatuation with the 4-3-3 that caused the Panama Root Canal, Vanney almost always plays pretty plain vanilla 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 (sometimes diamond)... you are claiming he does something unique enough that other coaches are copying it... what is this tactical innovation? Which other coaches?
    OK, from a world football perspective, nothing Vanney does is innovative. He's just a keen student of football elsewhere.

    Let's start with the 4-4-2 diamond. Nobody in MLS was using it when Vanney brought it in as his alternative formation (one notable tactical use of it by him was using it for the 2017 MLS Cup game which Seattle was not prepared for and took them by surprise).

    Now Jim Curtin is using it for his Philly side (instead of the previous 4-2-3-1), for the exact same reasons that Vanney has used it. If you have a strong midfield you can create overload situations. It's an aggressive, high risk formation that's good for a team with a strong midfield and weaker elsewhere. In the 2017 MLS Cup it led to TFC getting quickly ahead which effectively defeated Seattle's usual bunkering strategy.

    Conor Casey has also been recently using it for the Rapids, although one could argue that they aren't strictly sticking to it as Mezquida tends to drift to the right leading to a lopsided "diamond."
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-24-2019 at 08:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    OK I will bite. Notwithstanding his Guardiola infatuation with the 4-3-3 that caused the Panama Root Canal, Vanney almost always plays pretty plain vanilla 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 (sometimes diamond)... you are claiming he does something unique enough that other coaches are copying it... what is this tactical innovation? Which other coaches?
    Vanny brought the 3-5-2 back but added expansive full backs - in 2014 everybody was playing a 4-4-2 with stay back FB's. Previously in around 2011 NER had played a 3-5-2 but with inverted wingers not FB's. To a certain extant Vanney did this because of who the team was at the time but its funny how many coaches insisted on playing "their" formation. He's been really pragmatic compared to most. He, along with Berhalter, were one of the first in MLS to do formation switches within halves - most coaches made that switch at the mid point, if ever. Heck, innovation in formations was going from a 4-4-2 to a 5-4-1 when in the lead.

    He also fully bought into analytics & load management when much of the league was/is ignoring it.

    People need to read the Kloke book on the history of this team & see what sort of training this team used to do right up until Mariner was fired. The epitome of "get stuck in". Nelsen was only slightly better.



    ********

    Oldtimer just saw your post - RSL played a 4-4-2 diamond. But they usually played it with 2 stay at home FBs, 1 winger and an inverted shuttler. TFC played it with 2 shuttlers & two bombing WB's. It really operated as a 2-1-4-1-2 - as like everything, it got found out eventually.
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 06-24-2019 at 08:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Vanny brought the 3-5-2 back but added expansive full backs - in 2014 everybody was playing a 4-4-2 with stay back FB's. Previously in around 2011 NER had played a 3-5-2 but with inverted wingers not FB's. To a certain extant Vanney did this because of who the team was at the time but its funny how many coaches insisted on playing "their" formation. He's been really pragmatic compared to most. He, along with Berhalter, were one of the first in MLS to do formation switches within halves - most coaches made that switch at the mid point, if ever. Heck, innovation in formations was going from a 4-4-2 to a 5-4-1 when in the lead.

    He also fully bought into analytics & load management when much of the league was/is ignoring it.

    People need to read the Kloke book on the history of this team & see what sort of training this team used to do right up until Mariner was fired. The epitome of "get stuck in". Nelsen was only slightly better.



    ********

    Oldtimer just saw your post - RSL played a 4-4-2 diamond. But they usually played it with 2 stay at home FBs, 1 winger and an inverted shuttler. TFC played it with 2 shuttlers & two bombing WB's. It really operated as a 2-1-4-1-2 - as like everything, it got found out eventually.
    I think Og is right with this response. The 4-4-2 diamond was hardly uncommon, RSL being the prototypical team, but no one (in MLS) was using 3 central defenders with wing backs. Now it's pretty common.

    Also, remember when left and right backs were the guys who sucked playing anywhere else on the pitch in MLS? Now teams pay money for good ones.
    Last edited by Canary10; 06-24-2019 at 09:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Vanny brought the 3-5-2 back but added expansive full backs - in 2014 everybody was playing a 4-4-2 with stay back FB's. Previously in around 2011 NER had played a 3-5-2 but with inverted wingers not FB's. To a certain extant Vanney did this because of who the team was at the time but its funny how many coaches insisted on playing "their" formation. He's been really pragmatic compared to most. He, along with Berhalter, were one of the first in MLS to do formation switches within halves - most coaches made that switch at the mid point, if ever. Heck, innovation in formations was going from a 4-4-2 to a 5-4-1 when in the lead.

    He also fully bought into analytics & load management when much of the league was/is ignoring it.

    People need to read the Kloke book on the history of this team & see what sort of training this team used to do right up until Mariner was fired. The epitome of "get stuck in". Nelsen was only slightly better.



    ********

    Oldtimer just saw your post - RSL played a 4-4-2 diamond. But they usually played it with 2 stay at home FBs, 1 winger and an inverted shuttler. TFC played it with 2 shuttlers & two bombing WB's. It really operated as a 2-1-4-1-2 - as like everything, it got found out eventually.
    Yeah, this is a good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post

    Oldtimer just saw your post - RSL played a 4-4-2 diamond. But they usually played it with 2 stay at home FBs, 1 winger and an inverted shuttler. TFC played it with 2 shuttlers & two bombing WB's. It really operated as a 2-1-4-1-2 - as like everything, it got found out eventually.
    Forgot about RSL. Yes they did play a version of the diamond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    I think Og is right with this response. The 4-4-2 diamond was hardly uncommon, RSL being the prototypical team, but no one (in MLS) was using 3 central defenders with wing backs. Now it's pretty common.
    It was more a flat 4-4-2 that was common, not the diamond (except for RSL as Og mentioned). I'm thinking circa 2014.

    You're correct about the 3 central defenders with wingbacks.

    The larger picture is that Vanney has been copied by other coaches (my original side point was that that fact has been ignored). Sure none of it was new to world football but it was new to MLS.

    That's why the narrative that he's such a bad coach that just luckily stumbled into the treble because of a strong team is not credible. If that was true why is he being copied?
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-24-2019 at 10:17 AM.

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    Vanney's 4-3-3, if we were able to pull it off, would be different from most 4-3-3 in this league.

    He wants to do 2 CB's 2 FB's who bomb 1 DM 2 playmaking AM 1 wide AM (DeLeon) 1 wide forward 1 target man who plays it into his feet - its really a 2-1-4-1-2 if you had to stack it up. Not quite Man City 4-3-3 in that the wide AM has more defensive duties. Relies a TON on the CB's & the DM.


    Most are 2 CB's 2FB's who bomb 2 Dms 1 AM 2 wide AM 1 target man who bangs and lays off - 2-2-2-1-2-1. The way to counter this is to push their FB's back & create gaps between the less defensively minded wide AM's and the backline, which is why you see us play the 3-5-2 so often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    It was more a flat 4-4-2 that was common, not the diamond (except for RSL as Og mentioned). I'm thinking circa 2014.

    You're correct about the 3 central defenders with wingbacks.

    The larger picture is that Vanney has been copied by other coaches (my original side point was that that fact has been ignored). Sure none of it was new to world football but it was new to MLS.

    That's why the narrative that he's such a bad coach that just luckily stumbled into the treble because of a strong team is not credible. If that was true why is he being copied?
    Yeah I agree with your main point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Vanney's 4-3-3, if we were able to pull it off, would be different from most 4-3-3 in this league.

    He wants to do 2 CB's 2 FB's who bomb 1 DM 2 playmaking AM 1 wide AM (DeLeon) 1 wide forward 1 target man who plays it into his feet - its really a 2-1-4-1-2 if you had to stack it up. Not quite Man City 4-3-3 in that the wide AM has more defensive duties. Relies a TON on the CB's & the DM.


    Most are 2 CB's 2FB's who bomb 2 Dms 1 AM 2 wide AM 1 target man who bangs and lays off - 2-2-2-1-2-1. The way to counter this is to push their FB's back & create gaps between the less defensively minded wide AM's and the backline, which is why you see us play the 3-5-2 so often.
    For this to be successful I think we need a ton of roster overhauling. We don't have the pace to compensate for errors or counters and I am not sure our CAMs (minus Poz & maybe Osorio) have the IQ to run this properly. Maybe next year if the cap goes up by as much as the talking heads claim it will, then we can go on a shopping spree but as of right now, Vanney's proposed system is beyond the likes of Zavaleta, Delgado, Ciman, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    OK, from a world football perspective, nothing Vanney does is innovative. He's just a keen student of football elsewhere.

    Let's start with the 4-4-2 diamond. Nobody in MLS was using it when Vanney brought it in as his alternative formation (one notable tactical use of it by him was using it for the 2017 MLS Cup game which Seattle was not prepared for and took them by surprise).

    Now Jim Curtin is using it for his Philly side (instead of the previous 4-2-3-1), for the exact same reasons that Vanney has used it. If you have a strong midfield you can create overload situations. It's an aggressive, high risk formation that's good for a team with a strong midfield and weaker elsewhere. In the 2017 MLS Cup it led to TFC getting quickly ahead which effectively defeated Seattle's usual bunkering strategy.

    Conor Casey has also been recently using it for the Rapids, although one could argue that they aren't strictly sticking to it as Mezquida tends to drift to the right leading to a lopsided "diamond."
    The 442 diamond was pretty obviously plagiarized from RSL.

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    I have said it before, so won’t belabour it... but I find the formation stuff to be way overblown. I don’t consider any of this to be that meaningful. But that is just me.

    Vanney did a more than decent job deploying the resources he had available. He definitely switches formations in game, which I respect.

    But he is not getting the best from his resources since CCL 2018. That is the issue.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    For this to be successful I think we need a ton of roster overhauling. We don't have the pace to compensate for errors or counters and I am not sure our CAMs (minus Poz & maybe Osorio) have the IQ to run this properly. Maybe next year if the cap goes up by as much as the talking heads claim it will, then we can go on a shopping spree but as of right now, Vanney's proposed system is beyond the likes of Zavaleta, Delgado, Ciman, etc.
    Oh, I agree - I just don't think people understand the difference between this 4-3-3 and most MLS 4-3-3.

    BTW, I'm pretty sure Vanney is not building it for Delgado & Zavaleta - Ciman though is the sort of CB that might be good at this at this level (but not if he goes as walkabout as he did on Saturday).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I have said it before, so won’t belabour it... but I find the formation stuff to be way overblown. I don’t consider any of this to be that meaningful. But that is just me.

    Vanney did a more than decent job deploying the resources he had available. He definitely switches formations in game, which I respect.

    But he is not getting the best from his resources since CCL 2018. That is the issue.
    Something has gone wrong in the dressing rom since that loss. I have no idea what it is, maybe to do with Seba. But everything has been off since then.

    Also, for a former defender, Vanneys teams are oddly defensively vulnerable. This was hidden for a while, maybe even fixed, but it’s gone back to the norm now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    The 442 diamond was pretty obviously plagiarized from RSL.
    As Og points out RSL didn't use wingbacks.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-24-2019 at 01:49 PM.
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    Manning saying Vanney has to fix this. "He has been challenged." Playoffs or he is gone.

 

 

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