New Vanney evaluation thread

[paul-collins]

I disagree with Ronzilla but he is not "out of line". Every coach of a successful team gets this criticism. You can never tell where talent ends and luck begins. Mourinho, Ancelotti, Pep, they all hear this, how their track record comes from the players/teams, and not anything they are doing. All the time.

How much of Cito Gaston's success in the 90's was his own?

He knew how to handle his stable of talent. The talent alone won't win you championships. (And an exceptional coach might get you a long way, but burn you out in the process - same era in Toronto, look at Pat Burns, he got about 1.5 years of overperformance, and then it fizzled)

Vanney still has his clubhouse with him. He has not burned them out, and that is testament to his management.

I agree, there are always valid criticisms even when you are successful, and we've seen those listed here.

[Gazza_55]

HAHAHAHA
he didnt exactly find them all hanging out behind the home hardware then think 'I wonder if these guys play football'.
Why dont you want to give him any credit?

Vanney could win CCL and MLS Cup and Ronzilla will still say he's lucky.

[Red CB Toronto]

Greg deserves a nice relaxing, holiday season after the this year. he has earned it.

[trane]

This team did not look as talented, when they were not organized, no team does. It is always a bit of both, a good manager, organized his team to get the most out of the talent he can. Vanney was able to do that for most of the season, and for the play off run. I said late in the season that we were the best team in the MLS, when we played organized tactical football and that kept true through the play offs. Yes, we had the talent, but the moment that we did not stay tight and organized we were exposed defensively , by Montreal, and did not look good going forward, the moment we got back into our system and played intelligent football our talent dominated both sides of the game.

Vanney deserves allot of credit for this, finding the rights system, and putting the players in the right roles. This was one of the best sides that I have seem ever play in the MLS. However, consistency/concentration was an issue, we had lapses through out, particularly on the defensive side.

I disagreed with his change, in the last game, I would have brought Ricketts in earlier to play with Jozy and Seba, because we could defend just fine with 7. I like the mid changes that he made, I would probably have brought him in for a fullback, and let Ricketts attack from out wide from the same width as the fullback would have.

We were so close to winning that, that it is frustrating. But this part is a divergence of opinion, not a real critic of Vanney.

[Kaz]

...

Vanney I believe this year cost us the Shield and the Cup.

His tactics got better, but I think that had more to do with the 3-5-2 and teams will figure it out and he will get stuck.

This is still the Coach that saw a loss against a 9 man side.

In the Cup Final 0-0 couldn't get past Seattle's defense, everyone was missing by just a little bit (which is common with this team when they have more than 7 days off under Vanney) What does he do? he pulls out Seba (who was furious) rather than switching to a defensive 4-3-3 in the final minutes of the game and ensuring that you have Seba on the pitch to take a kick. If he is there, he might have convinced Bradley from not doing what he did, he would have been before Morrow and the out come could have been different. He may have also helped cause just enough issues with Ricketts and Altidore to get that goal. The whole team was off, Seattle either is a much better team or TFC was just really off on the 10th. (Or bringing on Ricketts in place of Johnson or Cheyrou)

A 4-3-3 could have backfired too.. but it was the better decision given the options.

I do not believe he is a good coach. He may one day be one.. he has improved.. but I don't think enough so far.

At the same time no team would fire the man at this point. Making the Cup even if he did nearly blow it in Montreal two years in a row, and lost the cup due to poor decision making.. he made it to the cup.. as such he will stay. I know the Vanney Cheerleaders and reports that are getting special access to be cheerleaders themselves will not care about any dissenting opinion however I am just baffled when I see this many do things. His coaching decisions still just leave me so confused.

I will give him credit he got a lot out of the youngsters and created depth. All the more reason he should be in the Academy.

[OgtheDim]

Vanney is pretty good for MLS.

I have issues with him as far as being able to figure out a link between the midfield and the attack. But then I had issues with how he handled the defence in 2015 and that got significantly better and not just due to the added plaeyrs. Lets see if he can figure out in 2017 how to get this team to successfully and consistently play with a back 4.

BUT, I'd rather him then pretty much every coach in MLS. Only Martino and Pareja would be better suited to our team.

[molenshtain]

One thing about Vanney that I really like is that he's one of the very few coaches in this league who isn't a "system" coach. His philosophy and preferred style of play is closer to Arena's than anyone else in the league; pragmatic, flexible, put your best players in a position to succeed and build around that. Bodes well for his future and our future with him.

[Areathrasher]

[notthesun]

...

Vanney I believe this year cost us the Shield and the Cup.

Jeez, tell us how you really feel.

The truth of the final is Seattle got incredibly lucky. They have a great defensive line so they made it difficult, but we couldn't finish our chances, they got bailed out by a wonder save, and happened to win in penalties. We dominated every facet of the game from start to finish, you simply have to credit Vanney for that. Lodeiro was a complete ghost, no other team has managed to make him look so average since he signed with Seattle.

Giovinco asked to be taken out, if there's anything to criticize Vanney for it's probably that he should have taken Giovinco out sooner. Given that while watching, when I realized Seba was coming off I immediately started yelling about how much of an idiot Vanney was being, I can't really sit here and say he should have done better. Taking off your best player at that moment is a hard thing to do for any coach, unfortunately Giovinco wasn't himself since the start of the Montreal series.

What about the series vs. NYC? They had the best offense in the league and we totally shut them down. Especially the second leg, we pressured high up the pitch and caused a ton of turnovers, at least 3 of our goals that game came directly from our high pressure. That's Vanney.

You have to give him credit for switching to the 3-5-2 and in so doing figuring out a formation that gets the best out of our players, particularly gets all three of our DPs in the spots where they can be most effective.

And if there's one thing you can say, this team never quits on Vanney. We should have been dead and buried multiple times vs. Montreal but we came back. We won 4 straight games after losing to 9-man San Jose. We're resilient under Vanney.

[ronzilla]

...

Vanney I believe this year cost us the Shield and the Cup.

His tactics got better, but I think that had more to do with the 3-5-2 and teams will figure it out and he will get stuck.

This is still the Coach that saw a loss against a 9 man side.

In the Cup Final 0-0 couldn't get past Seattle's defense, everyone was missing by just a little bit (which is common with this team when they have more than 7 days off under Vanney) What does he do? he pulls out Seba (who was furious) rather than switching to a defensive 4-3-3 in the final minutes of the game and ensuring that you have Seba on the pitch to take a kick. If he is there, he might have convinced Bradley from not doing what he did, he would have been before Morrow and the out come could have been different. He may have also helped cause just enough issues with Ricketts and Altidore to get that goal. The whole team was off, Seattle either is a much better team or TFC was just really off on the 10th. (Or bringing on Ricketts in place of Johnson or Cheyrou)

A 4-3-3 could have backfired too.. but it was the better decision given the options.

I do not believe he is a good coach. He may one day be one.. he has improved.. but I don't think enough so far.

At the same time no team would fire the man at this point. Making the Cup even if he did nearly blow it in Montreal two years in a row, and lost the cup due to poor decision making.. he made it to the cup.. as such he will stay. I know the Vanney Cheerleaders and reports that are getting special access to be cheerleaders themselves will not care about any dissenting opinion however I am just baffled when I see this many do things. His coaching decisions still just leave me so confused.

I will give him credit he got a lot out of the youngsters and created depth. All the more reason he should be in the Academy.

Also failed to win a game this year, with a man advantage, 6X.

As i said before, Vanney is just here for the ride and being carried by the team. Giovinco saved his skin the entire season last year. It was just so obvious. The team improved this year only because of the addition of new players, not Vanney

Bringing on Cheyrou before Ricketts in the final, was the icing on the cake.

[EDIT: Removed some pointless, inflammatory stuff from the end of your post. You've earned that red reputation card above your avatar for a reason, ron ~Shakes]

[OgtheDim]

Time to up the image game

To the "I never will like this guy" brigade:

who EXACTLY is a better coach in MLS and please tell us why?

Cause situational analysis is about as useful to managerial evaluation as a figuring out how a cat knocked over a plant.

[PopePouri]

Time to up the image game

To the "I never will like this guy" brigade:

who EXACTLY is a better coach in MLS and please tell us why?

Cause situational analysis is about as useful to managerial evaluation as a figuring out how a cat knocked over a plant.

Probably Pareja only given his track record. Similar to Vanney, he's flexible with formations and knows how to get the best out of his young players. He's just been doing it consistently.

[ensco]

http://www.sportingnews.com/soccer/n...41248do67tiv2t

It's not that Vanney is that special. Nobody is.

To me, it's about continuity, and people need to see that there is a fair reward for success. Vanney and his family, and the players and their families, deserve that. This is a brutal business. Bring them all back, with raises as/when appropriate. (Portland is a prime example of how fleeting success can be, so it's important not to give anyone more term than they would otherwise get.)

There are always decent alternative candidates. The next crop of NCAA coaches. Go and poach Caleb Porter, Bob Bradley will likely be available, starting around week 8. The Solskjaer rumour from last year did not seem farfetched. Someday we will go on a youth movement and it'll be Dichio.

[jloome]

http://www.sportingnews.com/soccer/n...41248do67tiv2t

It's not that Vanney is that special. Nobody is.

To me, it's about continuity, and people need to see that there is a fair reward for success. Vanney and his family, and the players and their families, deserve that. This is a brutal business. Bring them all back, with raises as/when appropriate. (Portland is a prime example of how fleeting success can be, so it's important not to give anyone more term than they would otherwise get.)

There are always decent alternative candidates. The next crop of NCAA coaches. Go and poach Caleb Porter, Bob Bradley will likely be available, starting around week 8. The Solskjaer rumour from last year did not seem farfetched. Someday we will go on a youth movement and it'll be Dichio.

This is the pragmatic reality. I'm watching Bob Bradley's team flounder in the Premiership and thinking about the difference between his prior roles, always in conditions like MLS with strict salary and roster restrictions and where he always succeeded by getting more out of players. But in the premiership, it's often the case that the player simply is or isn't good enough for his competition; you can get his best, and it won't be enough, because the gap from top talent, to middle, to bottom is fairly vast, but with no limits or caps, some teams just have no top players.

I don't think anyone on his team would start on another premier league team. So unless he does well in the window, they'll go down and he'll be fired.

But in MLS, the reality is you will more often than not have a coach with middling pro experience; at least one plodder playing at any given time due to the injury rates that stem from huge travel, massive changes in weather and pitch, and rough play; at least two overrated American athletes playing at any one time, with good smarts and athleticism but no technique; poor refereeing that can often kill any possession-based momentum.

So getting a 'great coach' at this level means getting someone who can handle the shitstorm of restrictions and difficulties, get some luck on the roster and injury side and win more than one-third of road games. That's generally the best you'll get here or at ANY second/third division pro league.

The coaches who are unstoppable motivators are, typically, picked up as assistants in the top tier first because they're the guys doing the field-level bossing. If they can then combine that with the corporate communication skills required to navigate the board/chairman and get money for players, they end up as a top premier league-level coach. But they typically (not always, but typically) develop along entirely different career lines than the guys who come up through the lower leagues.

Even the lower league ones who get promoted quickly tend to have strong football pedigrees of their own, or family connections to the premier level.

[OgtheDim]

Short thoughts on other MLS managers

DCU - Ben Olsen - best facial reactions in the league. Loves the cross and hope. Defences are very static but well drilled. Doesn't react to game states but instead waits until his approach works in a game state. Playing the kids not his style but will if he has to.

NER - Jay Heaps - style suits his pitch but not the grass fields of the league. Doesn't develop players as much as run them into the ground. Does not adjust much in game. Defence is a weakness

CBus - Gregg Berhalter - lost control of his club house and had to ditch his best player. makes quicker tactical adjustments then others. Had a style that worked for 1 season but now that it didnt' work, will he adjust out of it? Youth a part of his setup but prefers middle year players

Chicago - Veljko Paunovic - his team was shit and may not get much better - he moved around a lot of players but eventually found a tough style of defence - ie they are the Rapids of the East - did more in game adjustments then many - in theory should be good with youth as that's his background - has yet to find his star to build his team around and I'm not sure he knows what that player should be

Impact - Mauro Biello - had the cajones to bench Drogba - not as much pragmatic as aware of his team's limitations - lots of youth are around his team but he doesn't seem interested in bringing them in - his team adjusts itself to situations more then he adjusts it - limited in what he can do with these guys and that owner - loves the counter

Philly - Jim Curtin - probably the best guy in the East (baring Vanney) at bringing along youth - teams tend to break down between the lines - adjusts less then he should but more then some - defence not his strong suit

Orlando - Jason Kreis - WTF did Man City do to this guy? He looked like a league beater at RSL. At NYCFC, he looked overwhelmed. At Orlando, he's taking time to adjust the team to fit him. Which might be his issue.

NYRB - Jess Marsch - His team practices to a shot clock. A tad more arrogant then most in a business where arrogance is necessary. He has one style and if his team loses at the end of a game because they didn't keep the ball, I'm not sure he cares. Youth are a part of his set up but only a few at a time. Lets see if he can bring in all those good players who won USL with NYRBII. Yet to learn pragmatism. Midfield genius but his set piece stuff is way overthought. He's 10 years away from being Dominik Kinnear.

NYCFC - Patrick Vierra - well he can coach the big guys, but can he coach the plebs? One of the best in the league at in game adjustments, mostly because he's seen all this before. The rigid style of playing it out of the back, which seems to be mandated by Claudio Reyna as the Sporting Director, is going to hold this team back. Youth were brought in but only when the bigger name player was proven worse.

Atlanta - Gerrardo Martino - well his pedigree says he's the best in the league - lets see how his preferred style deals with their home field turf and heat and travel and salary cap restrictions but he has to be the best manager this league has brought in

Rapids - Pablo Mastroeni - dogmatic about winning 1-0 killed them in the West final - youth are being ignored - offence is of little interest to him - makes few in game adjustments - got his players motivated all season to play that way and win

LAG - new guy

SJE - Dominic Kinnear - WHY IS THIS GUY STILL AROUND?!?! 4-4-2 MLS 2.0 dinosaur - youth? Ha - midfield linking? Ha - its all about play it around long enough and eventually somebody will get it to Wondo in a good spot and hopefully he scores - God, people saying Vanney is crap should be made to watch all of SJE's last season - if the boredom doesn't kill them, they'll be bald for sure from tearing their hair out at all the stupidity

Minnesota - Adrian Heath - whenever I hear somebody complain about Vanney, I think of Adrian Heath cause everything they say Vanney doesnt' do, Heath ACTUALLY doesn't do - can't coach defences worth shit - he has no idea how to deal with spaces between lines - his subs are weird - he gets his tactics wrong - he's outcouched all the time - he relied upon his big star but they basically did whatever they wanted - only one thing he does very well - communicate with the supporters

Dallas - Oscar Pareja - knows how to get the most out of his players - the best in the league with youth - balanced team - had a 10 minute spell in Seattle that killed them after a poor tactical choice reacting to the loss of his best player - probably the next USMNT after Arena

Portland - Caleb Porter - learned to be pragmatic and it got them a star on their shirt - not a great youth coach despite his university background - adjusts well in games

RSL - Jeff Cassar - looks out of his depth - can he adjust his team which HAS to let the past Kreis success years finally go - working with what he has but really not adjusting much in games - tactically unsure

Seattle - Brian Schmetzer -yeah, paint me yet unsure on this guy - rode Lodeiro and that defence until he couldn't and then rode Frei for one game - lets see how he does when his team goes on a losing streak - played his best, youth or not - in game adjustments were mostly unnecessary -

Houston - new guy

SKC - Peter Vermes - MLS 2.0 guy adjusting OK to MLS 3.0 - well drilled teams that play the press and rely upon quick front movement - pragmatism isn't in his vocabulary doesn't make many in game adjustments - youth come along but he's not all that youth interested - subs are always good though - I personally think he whines way too much as does his players - he'll be at SKC for another 8 years until he decides he wants to retire

VCWC - Carl Robinson - see Jay Heaps above - loves speed on the wing but can't seem to ever find a solid striker - subs don't always come off - has no idea of game states - its been a blind spot with him even when he was playing - doesn't develop talent much - teams tail off at the end of the season for a reason

[Oldtimer]

^ conclusion, nobody obviously better than Vanney and no MLS coach is going to be managing Real Madrid any time soon.

So let's go with stability.

[jloome]

Short thoughts on other MLS managers

DCU - Ben Olsen - best facial reactions in the league. Loves the cross and hope. Defences are very static but well drilled. Doesn't react to game states but instead waits until his approach works in a game state. Playing the kids not his style but will if he has to.

NER - Jay Heaps - style suits his pitch but not the grass fields of the league. Doesn't develop players as much as run them into the ground. Does not adjust much in game. Defence is a weakness

CBus - Gregg Berhalter - lost control of his club house and had to ditch his best player. makes quicker tactical adjustments then others. Had a style that worked for 1 season but now that it didnt' work, will he adjust out of it? Youth a part of his setup but prefers middle year players

Chicago - Veljko Paunovic - his team was shit and may not get much better - he moved around a lot of players but eventually found a tough style of defence - ie they are the Rapids of the East - did more in game adjustments then many - in theory should be good with youth as that's his background - has yet to find his star to build his team around and I'm not sure he knows what that player should be

Impact - Mauro Biello - had the cajones to bench Drogba - not as much pragmatic as aware of his team's limitations - lots of youth are around his team but he doesn't seem interested in bringing them in - his team adjusts itself to situations more then he adjusts it - limited in what he can do with these guys and that owner - loves the counter

Philly - Jim Curtin - probably the best guy in the East (baring Vanney) at bringing along youth - teams tend to break down between the lines - adjusts less then he should but more then some - defence not his strong suit

Orlando - Jason Kreis - WTF did Man City do to this guy? He looked like a league beater at RSL. At NYCFC, he looked overwhelmed. At Orlando, he's taking time to adjust the team to fit him. Which might be his issue.

NYRB - Jess Marsch - His team practices to a shot clock. A tad more arrogant then most in a business where arrogance is necessary. He has one style and if his team loses at the end of a game because they didn't keep the ball, I'm not sure he cares. Youth are a part of his set up but only a few at a time. Lets see if he can bring in all those good players who won USL with NYRBII. Yet to learn pragmatism. Midfield genius but his set piece stuff is way overthought. He's 10 years away from being Dominik Kinnear.

NYCFC - Patrick Vierra - well he can coach the big guys, but can he coach the plebs? One of the best in the league at in game adjustments, mostly because he's seen all this before. The rigid style of playing it out of the back, which seems to be mandated by Claudio Reyna as the Sporting Director, is going to hold this team back. Youth were brought in but only when the bigger name player was proven worse.

Atlanta - Gerrardo Martino - well his pedigree says he's the best in the league - lets see how his preferred style deals with their home field turf and heat and travel and salary cap restrictions but he has to be the best manager this league has brought in

Rapids - Pablo Mastroeni - dogmatic about winning 1-0 killed them in the West final - youth are being ignored - offence is of little interest to him - makes few in game adjustments - got his players motivated all season to play that way and win

LAG - new guy

SJE - Dominic Kinnear - WHY IS THIS GUY STILL AROUND?!?! 4-4-2 MLS 2.0 dinosaur - youth? Ha - midfield linking? Ha - its all about play it around long enough and eventually somebody will get it to Wondo in a good spot and hopefully he scores - God, people saying Vanney is crap should be made to watch all of SJE's last season - if the boredom doesn't kill them, they'll be bald for sure from tearing their hair out at all the stupidity

Minnesota - Adrian Heath - whenever I hear somebody complain about Vanney, I think of Adrian Heath cause everything they say Vanney doesnt' do, Heath ACTUALLY doesn't do - can't coach defences worth shit - he has no idea how to deal with spaces between lines - his subs are weird - he gets his tactics wrong - he's outcouched all the time - he relied upon his big star but they basically did whatever they wanted - only one thing he does very well - communicate with the supporters

Dallas - Oscar Pareja - knows how to get the most out of his players - the best in the league with youth - balanced team - had a 10 minute spell in Seattle that killed them after a poor tactical choice reacting to the loss of his best player - probably the next USMNT after Arena

Portland - Caleb Porter - learned to be pragmatic and it got them a star on their shirt - not a great youth coach despite his university background - adjusts well in games

RSL - Jeff Cassar - looks out of his depth - can he adjust his team which HAS to let the past Kreis success years finally go - working with what he has but really not adjusting much in games - tactically unsure

Seattle - Brian Schmetzer -yeah, paint me yet unsure on this guy - rode Lodeiro and that defence until he couldn't and then rode Frei for one game - lets see how he does when his team goes on a losing streak - played his best, youth or not - in game adjustments were mostly unnecessary -

Houston - new guy

SKC - Peter Vermes - MLS 2.0 guy adjusting OK to MLS 3.0 - well drilled teams that play the press and rely upon quick front movement - pragmatism isn't in his vocabulary doesn't make many in game adjustments - youth come along but he's not all that youth interested - subs are always good though - I personally think he whines way too much as does his players - he'll be at SKC for another 8 years until he decides he wants to retire

VCWC - Carl Robinson - see Jay Heaps above - loves speed on the wing but can't seem to ever find a solid striker - subs don't always come off - has no idea of game states - its been a blind spot with him even when he was playing - doesn't develop talent much - teams tail off at the end of the season for a reason

Onolfo in LA has coached in the league before; he was the manager of KC a few years back. Seemed competent but unspectacular. I think he got ditched because they couldn't get past the first round of the playoffs or something.

[PopePouri]

^ conclusion, nobody obviously better than Vanney and no MLS coach is going to be managing Real Madrid any time soon.

Floro is available.

[MightyDM]

This team did not look as talented, when they were not organized, no team does. It is always a bit of both, a good manager, organized his team to get the most out of the talent he can. Vanney was able to do that for most of the season, and for the play off run. I said late in the season that we were the best team in the MLS, when we played organized tactical football and that kept true through the play offs. Yes, we had the talent, but the moment that we did not stay tight and organized we were exposed defensively , by Montreal, and did not look good going forward, the moment we got back into our system and played intelligent football our talent dominated both sides of the game.

Vanney deserves allot of credit for this, finding the rights system, and putting the players in the right roles. This was one of the best sides that I have seem ever play in the MLS. However, consistency/concentration was an issue, we had lapses through out, particularly on the defensive side.

I disagreed with his change, in the last game, I would have brought Ricketts in earlier to play with Jozy and Seba, because we could defend just fine with 7. I like the mid changes that he made, I would probably have brought him in for a fullback, and let Ricketts attack from out wide from the same width as the fullback would have.

We were so close to winning that, that it is frustrating. But this part is a divergence of opinion, not a real critic of Vanney.

Im with you Trane, I was calling for Ricketts to come in for Beitashour after 60 minutes. Still puzzled as to why Ricketts was left to the 103 Rd minute. Halftime might not have been too early, depending on who for.

ive been unable to read the news or the boards until yesterday, it just hurt too much, but in getting back on I've been surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of this decision. He is a game breaker and could have totally changed the dynamic of the game. Has Vanney shed any light on this?

having said that, Vanney brought us as close as possible to the cup, and what a run. Incredible memories, and he also developed talent, managed players well ( except Johnson possibly) - he must have our full support. He has mine.

still, why not Ricketts?

[evermorian]

Im with you Trane, I was calling for Ricketts to come in for Beitashour after 60 minutes. Still puzzled as to why Ricketts was left to the 103 Rd minute. Halftime might not have been too early, depending on who for.

ive been unable to read the news or the boards until yesterday, it just hurt too much, but in getting back on I've been surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of this decision. He is a game breaker and could have totally changed the dynamic of the game. Has Vanney shed any light on this?

having said that, Vanney brought us as close as possible to the cup, and what a run. Incredible memories, and he also developed talent, managed players well ( except Johnson possibly) - he must have our full support. He has mine.

still, why not Ricketts?

If they had a half decent ref for the cup game, I think TFC would have at least scored a goal, or Seattle would have been a man down. It was atrocious some of the calls that were made, but even more so, the many calls that should have been but were not. MLS really needs to start to invest in proper refereeing.

[ag futbol]

Good grief, people really love to dig in.

I'm not the biggest Vanney fan but the level of criticism coming from some quarters is rediculous.

Is there nothing else to focus on? We could do much worse.

[ensco]

still, why not Ricketts?

Because we now know that Seattle didn't burn us on the counter and score a goal, and you also know that we lost in PKs.

I'm sorry but the idea that we "totally dominated" the game has taken hold only after the fact, once people saw the shots stat, which is misleading.

We had the better play, and the better chances, but we did not have that many chances. They looked very dangerous on the counter (Morris nearly broke free several times), and the single best scoring chance of the game may have been Torres' muffed chance in alone after Beitashour scuffed the ball (Altidore's header across Frei was incredible, it deserves a thread all it's own for what Jozy did there, he created something out of nothing there, 3 guys were on him... but he wasn't in alone like Torres was).

Vanney was probably afraid that going 3-4-3 would be too risky. I agree with him. Even if you don't it was a reasonable view.

It's not like getting to PKs is worse than losing in the 120 minutes - it only seems that way afterwards.

[Jack]

If they had a half decent ref for the cup game, I think TFC would have at least scored a goal, or Seattle would have been a man down. It was atrocious some of the calls that were made, but even more so, the many calls that should have been but were not. MLS really needs to start to invest in proper refereeing.

This is the most frustrating thing for me. Enforce the damn rules!

[OgtheDim]

Because we now know that Seattle didn't burn us on the counter and score a goal, and you also know that we lost in PKs.

I'm sorry but the idea that we "totally dominated" the game has taken hold only after the fact, once people saw the shots stat, which is misleading.

...

Agreed. Its a narrative that makes us feel better but we all stood there wondering about the danger.

[ensco]

This is the most frustrating thing for me. Enforce the damn rules!

I suspect this will not be popular, but Gio was going down too easily, I said it to my viewing mate at the game, it sours the ref and costs us in the long run.

I suspect he was doing it because he wasn't feeling right, and liked his chances better on FKs than on taking guys on 1v1 like usual.

[Jack]

I suspect this will not be popular, but Gio was going down too easily, I said it to my viewing mate at the game, it sours the ref and costs us in the long run.

I suspect he was doing it because he wasn't feeling right, and liked his chances better on FKs than on taking guys on 1v1 like usual.

He was going down easily, but it doesn't change the fact that the ref let them get away with hockey-style defence on him.

[Jack]

I'm having a pint and watching sports highlights and they just showed Altidore's header against Montreal. What a fucking goal!

[Richard]

Vanney is the type of manager I want, he is pragmatic when it comes to tactics by having the team play in a variety of ways and also very flexible when its comes to formations. The players win the cup at the end of the day, I think Vanney has done a good enough of a job to set the players up for success.

[ensco]

I'm having a pint and watching sports highlights and they just showed Altidore's header against Montreal. What a fucking goal!

That header was a 10/10.

The header Frei saved was an 11. Go back and have a look (don't do this right after a meal!) at the elevation Altidore gets to beat three defenders, and then the touch and placement he gets on that ball.

If if if if if if .... *breaks keyboard in despair*

[Jack]

That header was a 10/10.

The header Frei saved was an 11. Go back and have a look (don't do this right after a meal!) at the elevation Altidore gets to beat three defenders, and then the touch and placement he gets on that ball.

If if if if if if .... *breaks keyboard in despair*

It was a fantastic header and an even better save. Hats off to Frei for that one.