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  1. #1231
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I have to say, this morning, for the first time in a long time, I am thinking hard about Vanney. This CCL result is impossible to ignore.
    ...
    EDIT: I hate saying this btw. Guadalajara was only 9 months ago.
    I'd have to go over 2017... I think we could have done better... and I made that clear then, I don't think the defensive faults occurred though.

    The issues we see now are the same one that started in February on 2018 in Colorado and were on full display in the second leg. The team just isn't on the pitch in the first few minutes of the game. Colorado had they had been competent could have knocked us out of the CCL last year. In the first few minutes of the first half the defence was in shambles.

    Last year something changed. I don't know if it was a situation that previously Vanney listened to others and to the players and managed almost by democracy and then once he got his award he started "being a coach" and actually deciding things for himself. But the issue we saw this(last) year started after the Cup in 2017. We won the Cup, He won Coach of the Year. We started to suck. It's almost as if the team stopped playing together and just started doing what they were told. All the creativity and urgency left.

    If I'm not mistaken at one point he wanted to play a 4-4-2 with two wing backs basically a (2-6-2). It was not good so he moved back to the 5-3-2 (3-5-2). Which is why we didn't really have enough players at the beginning of the year. He figured he'd only new two CBs on the Pitch. I don't really have any other explanation. Not to mention the disrespect to Raheem Edwards.

    The CCL lost was not good and the team just feel apart, like nothing else mattered. We say that in 2017 when games that didn't feel like they mattered were shocking. (Montreal at the end of the year for example) It was like the entire MLS season didn't matter.

    I don't know what this year will look like, last year we saw way too many injuries to be coincidence. Something about Training and Coach was seriously flawed. I think he still doesn't understand there is anything wrong. The Off season acquisitions say just a few things. He either doesn't get it, or MLSE doesn't care.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he is gone around June unless the team does wonders. Like actually attacking and not just passing the ball back over and over until you can get it down a wing and cross it along the ground after the opposing side has set up 8 men plus a keeper behind the ball. Worse it was the Early goals, the early second half goals and the second goals minutes after the first. (all of which happened in CCL last year) Chivas last year scored at BMO in the first two minutes. A goal that ultimately forced the Penalties.

    If these same patterns continues (as we have already seen them in Panama) he has to go as you can't blame the players here. The players change. It isn't a specific set of defenders these issues occur with. That puts it on Coaching.
    Last edited by Kaz; 03-01-2019 at 01:33 PM.

  2. #1232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    I'm sorry I won't read Waking the Read or any other SB Nation site. They are owned by VOX Media a company that abuses Copyright to bully and intimidate as well as race baiting. When Vox issues an actual apology to those they have wronged or Waking the Red/SB Nation cuts ties with Vox I'll read them again
    Those are pretty serious charges. Please provide a link for proof or your post will be deleted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Those are pretty serious charges. Please provide a link for proof or your post will be deleted.
    Bitwit wasn't the only channel hit. As such I won't deal with any site owned by Vox Media who issued the Strikes on things that were fair use, months after the fact. The Strikes were rescinded and there was no legit reason for them. The Editor at the Verge went to law school and practiced as a lawyer and knew better.

    Nilay's response to it was a non apology. SB Nation is owned by Vox Media as such I won't give them my eye balls, until such time as he steps down or apologies to those they tried to bully. It is nothing against SB Nation or Walking Red it is just collateral.

    I will also mention there is no call to action. My comments were purely to the fact that Walking Red is a source I would normally read and in a discussion thread particularly as I am one of the more vocal and regularly shouted down people on the board when it comes to firing Vanney, I thought it was appropriate to say I wasn't going to read it. I always read articles people post in general, and I have shown repeatedly that I will go through data. So I ignoring an article presented felt wrong without saying I wouldn't. Not due to the content but due to the origin of the source.

    It was not my intent to derail the discussion by providing the long explanation and links I have been forced to do here and had someone had issue with it I would have dealt with it in a PM rather than publicly. I am only doing it now due to the simple fact that the suggestion of your comment is that I was making something up which is not something I have ever shown to do. Nor is a rash action taken by me without provocation. It is not part of my character and you'd think in 10 years that would have been clear. I would have also thought that this would have been asked of me via PM rather than in open discourse.


    https://twitter.com/bitwitkyle/statu...879872?lang=en

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56fZ_OC8HkY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbH17HMBusc

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...ilding-advice/

    https://techaeris.com/2019/02/14/vox-media-filed-copyright-violations-and-youtube-strikes-against-reaction-videos-made-at-their-expense/


    Last edited by Kaz; 03-03-2019 at 03:45 PM.

  4. #1234
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    To keep things on Topic.. I will mention as I was looking to see if there was a PM rather than a public call out... I noticed something in the notification going back to 2016... we were under performing and it wasn't clear if we'd even make the playoffs. At the time Injuries.. It isn't Vanney's fault it is Injuries.

    So in 2016.. Injuries. 2017.. injuries but so deep. in 2018 injuries.

    Why so many injuries? Why is this team in the last 3 years been plagued with a constant statement about injuries when it comes to a discussion.

    I won't do the research.. maybe later in the season if it hasn't been done.. but in the last three years how many injuries has TFC suffered compared to other teams? If yes, why? Why hasn't this been called into question. If no, why is it used as an excuse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    To keep things on Topic.. I will mention as I was looking to see if there was a PM rather than a public call out... I noticed something in the notification going back to 2016... we were under performing and it wasn't clear if we'd even make the playoffs. At the time Injuries.. It isn't Vanney's fault it is Injuries.

    So in 2016.. Injuries. 2017.. injuries but so deep. in 2018 injuries.

    Why so many injuries? Why is this team in the last 3 years been plagued with a constant statement about injuries when it comes to a discussion.

    I won't do the research.. maybe later in the season if it hasn't been done.. but in the last three years how many injuries has TFC suffered compared to other teams? If yes, why? Why hasn't this been called into question. If no, why is it used as an excuse?
    It's the pitch at BMO. Been saying this for a while, but I'd love to find sources on injury rates across MLS stadiums. I'd be shocked if we're not at the top of that list over the last 2 years.

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    The adjustment towards a 3 man backline was perfect for against Philly. Glad it was made because if we had tried to do a 4-3-3 against that lineup, we would have been slaughtered. Vanney is at his best when he is pragmatic - if he gets dogmatic about a formation, we are crud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The adjustment towards a 3 man backline was perfect for against Philly. Glad it was made because if we had tried to do a 4-3-3 against that lineup, we would have been slaughtered. Vanney is at his best when he is pragmatic - if he gets dogmatic about a formation, we are crud.
    You know.. it helps that they couldn't really score and gifted goals to TFC.

    I forgot the game even happened as I was travelling. I literally couldn't care less about the time until April as I have no faith in the team right now. I know it will just frustrate me watching 90 minutes. By April I'll have an idea of what to expect.

    There were positives in the highlights but not many. And WTF did Osorio try to do with that PK? Was that his "tee hee I fooled you into paying me more" move? I am not making any judgments based on this game. Philly looks like a mess.

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    Watching the full game, not just the highlights. would indicate that it was a tad more work then being gifted goals.

    ******

    One of the things we didn't see today was much youth involvement. OK, there were a few young guys on the bench & Hamilton starts but Hamilton has been around the team a long time. At some point, Vanney has to play some youth in league games, not just cup matches. Otherwise, these guys are not going to get better.

    Guys can't get better without playing and if the future is Frasier & Telfer & Akinola, at some point those guys gotta start - not all at the same time, but serious minutes need to be provided or we will have to buy the future...again. This is one of those things where I hope Curtis & Manning can sit down Vanney & explain this all out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Watching the full game, not just the highlights. would indicate that it was a tad more work then being gifted goals.

    ******

    One of the things we didn't see today was much youth involvement. OK, there were a few young guys on the bench & Hamilton starts but Hamilton has been around the team a long time. At some point, Vanney has to play some youth in league games, not just cup matches. Otherwise, these guys are not going to get better.

    Guys can't get better without playing and if the future is Frasier & Telfer & Akinola, at some point those guys gotta start - not all at the same time, but serious minutes need to be provided or we will have to buy the future...again. This is one of those things where I hope Curtis & Manning can sit down Vanney & explain this all out.
    Well we all know my hope.. we start looking for a new coach that actually understands things like.. youth development, proper training, and if you are short in CB don't wait 12 months to do something... minor... about it particularly if it is a major short fall. In fact the only thing done this year iirc was sending out some young defensive depth that could score too, keeping someone for neoptism (which I was called out for when I said that is why he was here after Edwards was left open) and replacing someone young with an old Canadian (because we lost a Canadian) and ... well nothing else really.

    So ya... I'd much rather see Curtis and Manning talking with coaches to replace him and then get him out of here.

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    From a training/coaching POV, the big thing to like was the link up play, the one touch passing was there (that was completely missing in Panama, and much of last year)

    The big thing to worry about was the general play at the back and in goal. Vanney has to settle the back line down, there was way too much running around, the result masks the problem. We played a bunch of 5-3 games last year and this should have been one too. We gave them acres of space, tons of chances, and an NYCFC or an Atlanta would have carved us to pieces.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    One of the things we didn't see today was much youth involvement. OK, there were a few young guys on the bench & Hamilton starts but Hamilton has been around the team a long time. At some point, Vanney has to play some youth in league games, not just cup matches. Otherwise, these guys are not going to get better.

    Guys can't get better without playing and if the future is Frasier & Telfer & Akinola, at some point those guys gotta start - not all at the same time, but serious minutes need to be provided or we will have to buy the future...again. This is one of those things where I hope Curtis & Manning can sit down Vanney & explain this all out.
    Yeah agreed. Ironically, in business and in sports, you often see management teams overlook their own people and prize others from outside the organization (usually without good reason). We spend way too much time trying to take a punt on college guys or fringe MLS cast-offs with low ceilings. We should be promoting our own, that's where the opportunity is.

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    The big thing to worry about was the general play at the back and in goal. Vanney has to settle the back line down, there was way too much running around, the result masks the problem. We played a bunch of 5-3 games last year and this should have been one too. We gave them acres of space, tons of chances, and an NYCFC or an Atlanta would have carved us to pieces.
    Well, this and Drew Moor looks as critical as ever to our success. They completely misfired calling Ciman a replacement. He's no leader back there and is simply a lesser version of Mavinga (with crazier ideas).
    Last edited by ag futbol; 03-03-2019 at 10:17 AM.

  12. #1242
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    ^I think almost everyone is rushing to judgment on Ciman. Let’s give it 5 or 10 games, based on his resume alone. He clearly was better in the second half.

    He and Mavinga need to get in sync on protecting each other, because right now, each seems to be taking risks without understanding who has his back.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Watching the full game, not just the highlights. would indicate that it was a tad more work then being gifted goals.

    ******

    One of the things we didn't see today was much youth involvement. OK, there were a few young guys on the bench & Hamilton starts but Hamilton has been around the team a long time. At some point, Vanney has to play some youth in league games, not just cup matches. Otherwise, these guys are not going to get better.

    Guys can't get better without playing and if the future is Frasier & Telfer & Akinola, at some point those guys gotta start - not all at the same time, but serious minutes need to be provided or we will have to buy the future...again. This is one of those things where I hope Curtis & Manning can sit down Vanney & explain this all out.
    Wholeheartedly disagree. This could not be more wrong. Minutes should be EARNED not provided. Secondly, find one good news story of FO meddling in the coaches selections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    From a training/coaching POV, the big thing to like was the link up play, the one touch passing was there (that was completely missing in Panama, and much of last year)

    The big thing to worry about was the general play at the back and in goal. Vanney has to settle the back line down, there was way too much running around, the result masks the problem. We played a bunch of 5-3 games last year and this should have been one too. We gave them acres of space, tons of chances, and an NYCFC or an Atlanta would have carved us to pieces.
    Like I say I need to see the rest of the games this month to have any idea how bad it is going to be this season.

    Though if something that was missing from last year is there now... the questions becomes is it the players listening to Vanney again or has Vanney been humbled and is listening to the players again, or a combo there of. It is no secret I think the later. I don't rate him very high I never have. I would have liked to see him replaced in 2016. It may mean we wouldn't have won the cup in 2017 (as the pieces may have changed) but I think it would have been better long term as MLSE was still willing to spend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokecell View Post
    Wholeheartedly disagree. This could not be more wrong. Minutes should be EARNED not provided. Secondly, find one good news story of FO meddling in the coaches selections.
    The idea these guys aren't earning their minutes and that's the reason they are off the field is perception as much as reality. We seem to have no issues giving these minutes to older players who roundly fall on their face on occasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokecell View Post
    Wholeheartedly disagree. This could not be more wrong. Minutes should be EARNED not provided. Secondly, find one good news story of FO meddling in the coaches selections.
    Fair enough but NYRB changed coaches because of this & are arguably MUCH better because they play the kids serious minutes.

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    What are some realistic coaching candidates out there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Fair enough but NYRB changed coaches because of this & are arguably MUCH better because they play the kids serious minutes.
    No offence there is not one singular player from our academy that is as good as Tyler Adams, Sean Davis and a few others. Giving academy players minutes if they earned them fine, but giving them minutes just because they are from the academy is just asinine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdal View Post
    What are some realistic coaching candidates out there?
    When it happens, it will be Robin Frasier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoodson View Post
    No offence there is not one singular player from our academy that is as good as Tyler Adams, Sean Davis and a few others. Giving academy players minutes if they earned them fine, but giving them minutes just because they are from the academy is just asinine.
    Nobody knew they were good enough for MLS until they stepped on the field. Almost every other team in this league plays youth in order to check them & grow them. If you don't, they don't get better. Teams that don't do that stagnate. Dallas is a prime example - played youth who earned it. Great.....problem is they stuck with the same youth for 4 years. Have to keep looking at youth who can play & bring them up. If you don't, you then have to buy players year after year after year.

    Edu Osorio Morgan Henry & Bono - the only players this team has grown over the years into starters.

    Morrow is possibly done in 2 years - he looks slower already. Is Telfer the answer? Who knows - but you know better if he plays.

    Is Frasier the DM choice after Bradley? We don't know because he doesn't get any minutes.

    From what I'm seeing, Vanney puts a lot of emphasis on how well players train. Fair enough. BUT, sometimes, you have to give a kid a chance. And there are very few teams who do that as little as we do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoodson View Post
    No offence there is not one singular player from our academy that is as good as Tyler Adams, Sean Davis and a few others. Giving academy players minutes if they earned them fine, but giving them minutes just because they are from the academy is just asinine.
    Add Aaron Long to the list. NYRB seem to be doing something very well at the academy and NYRBII levels. I believe the latter has won a USL title but I could be wrong. That in and of itself says something when compared to TFCII. Anyways, this is all to say that their players are ready to compete for spots once they are signed to the first team. We can't quite say the same.

    Some more food for thought...do we win a Shield in '17 with incrementally higher minutes to the academy grads?

    I hope we get to that point but I fell like the amount of turnover with our coaching at those levels is hurting us. I don't see how we can be effective when the head coach struggles to last more than 2 years, most recently with Guyot leaving for France.

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    We pretty much bought or traded for the 16 & 17 teams - exceptions are Osorio & Bono & Morgan. That's LAG style (until this year - they have a 16 year old wonder kid + others)

    Buying can only get you so many years in a row - it isn't consistently sustainable. Vanney has to let go a bit or we will continue to have to trade for decent players.

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    The argument here for playing the kids is there are a number of players from the GTA who have made it through to MLS from elsewhere (normally Sigma first and then in to the NCAA). If you identified those kids earlier and developed them property their ceiling should be higher than the current route they are taking. But again, they need to play. We can't be so cheap about giving guys opportunity.

    This isn't pie-in-the-sky stuff. We need this academy to start working. If we're dependent entirely on transfers that makes life difficult. We have the advantage of a huge catchment and aren't using it. That should drive the front office mad.

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    [QUOTE=OgtheDim;1891742]Nobody knew they were good enough for MLS until they stepped on the field. Almost every other team in this league plays youth in order to check them & grow them. If you don't, they don't get better. Teams that don't do that stagnate. Dallas is a prime example - played youth who earned it. Great.....problem is they stuck with the same youth for 4 years. Have to keep looking at youth who can play & bring them up. If you don't, you then have to buy players year after year after year.

    Edu Osorio Morgan Henry & Bono - the only players this team has grown over the years into starters.

    Morrow is possibly done in 2 years - he looks slower already. Is Telfer the answer? Who knows - but you know better if he plays.

    Is Frasier the DM choice after Bradley? We don't know because he doesn't get any minutes.

    From what I'm seeing, Vanney puts a lot of emphasis on how well players train. Fair enough. BUT, sometimes, you have to give a kid a chance. And there are very few teams who do that as little as we do.[/QUOTE

    So if I understand you correctly the only way to judge if they are good enough is to play them corect?

    If if a player doesn’t put the effort in/doesn’t get the tactics when training why play them? I’m sorry youth players need to earn their spots not just be given opportunities because they are from the academy. That’s how works every where else in the world and seems to be a pretty good way of doing it.

    I know a few people in the academy and the most common reply I get on why we don’t haven’t had any impact players from our academy like Dallas or NYRB or the Galaxy is due to the mentality of the kids here. Also, for tfc to truly develop a player like Adams they need the kid starting at age 9/10. Kids coming in later on most of them have developed bad habits that can’t be broken. Play within a system for years and not have constant changes in the academy set up like what has happened here is the only way we will ever develop players, save a generational talent that are few and far between and they would be successful not matter what path they choose to become a pro
    Last edited by TheGoodson; 03-03-2019 at 09:22 PM.

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    [QUOTE=OgtheDim;1891742]Nobody knew they were good enough for MLS until they stepped on the field. Almost every other team in this league plays youth in order to check them & grow them. If you don't, they don't get better. Teams that don't do that stagnate. Dallas is a prime example - played youth who earned it. Great.....problem is they stuck with the same youth for 4 years. Have to keep looking at youth who can play & bring them up. If you don't, you then have to buy players year after year after year.

    Edu Osorio Morgan Henry & Bono - the only players this team has grown over the years into starters.

    Morrow is possibly done in 2 years - he looks slower already. Is Telfer the answer? Who knows - but you know better if he plays.

    Is Frasier the DM choice after Bradley? We don't know because he doesn't get any minutes.

    From what I'm seeing, Vanney puts a lot of emphasis on how well players train. Fair enough. BUT, sometimes, you have to give a kid a chance. And there are very few teams who do that as little as we do.[/QUOTE

    So if I understand you correctly the only way to judge if they are good enough is to play them corect?

    If if a player doesn’t put the effort in/doesn’t get the tactics when training why play them? I’m sorry youth players need to earn their spots not just.l be given opportunities because they are from the academy. That’s how works every where else in the world and seems to be a pretty good way of doing it.

    I know a few people in the academy and the most common reply I get on why we don’t haven’t had any impact players from our academy like Dallas or NYRB or the Galaxy is done to the mentality of the kids here. Also, for tfc to truly develop a player like Adams they need the kid starting at age 9/10. Kids coming in later on most have developed bad habits that can’t be broken. Play within a system for years and not have constant changes in the academy set up like what has happened here

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    Copying jloome's excellent post here about Vanney playing a mostly B team in Atlanta, and adding to it below...

    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I've been thinking about that decision, which I initially thought was sort of a bold gamble, and what might logically have happened.

    I think maybe Vanney doesn't have faith in our bench players. So he only plays them in bunches together, rather than platooning or rotating them properly, and in damn near hopeless situations.

    I think maybe he's making a serious mistake with how he handles our depth.

    Ashtone Morgan is not a shit fullback, and he is not old. He just never plays.

    At one point, when he was younger, he might've had a shot at being starting quality. Now, he has no delivery any more and is not fast enough to beat guys offensively... and we play with wingbacks more than half the time.

    I don't think Boyd or Hamilton are complete shit, either. Boyd was a competitive player until he was bumped to the Bundesliga and it was out of his depth. He was a U.S. national team player. Even if someone loses some speed to age and injuries, their technique and intelligence doesn't disintegrate completely.

    But they never play.

    Chapman has real potential to be a starter in MLS. But the tiny amount of activity he's seeing relative to what's required to break through means that it won't happen here.

    I watch how top managers handle a roster, and there are simply a lot more individual subs based on performance in a match, and not on long-term planning or projection -- or worse, a lack of faith in certain players.

    I don't think a team can win this league anymore without faith in at least most of its roster.

    We had four wins coming into this game and yet every time we're ahead, he leaves it until the post 70th minute to make a change. And he never spot starts someone just to give one player a rest or another a reward for good training. It's just "did the guy ahead of you screw up last game?"

    It all seems maybe too simplistic, like we are limiting what our squad can be. Certainly, in retrospect, I don't see the point in that many changes without even resting our two top healthy players. It made a tough game harder and it made players who rarely play look bad, and less confident.

    Perhaps he has a core mentality issue, where if a player isn't behaviourally the way he likes, he just won't let them play. Again, I'm not sure MLS is the kind of league where a manager inflexible to personality differences will keep winning.

    I look at the other guys who at this level produce over and over as coaches -- Tata Martinez, Bradley, Berhalter -- and they all handle different personalities exceptionally well, and they all give younger players more time to show what they have and adapt.
    Your strength can become your weakness.

    Vanney is big on lineup stability and “loyalty”, and it worked in 2016 and 2017, but it's turned on him. It has caused him to give too many opportunities in 2018 and 2019 to Delgado, Zavaleta, probably Bradley, as well as Bono. There needs to be more of a “feel” on when to make a change.

    The part about in game subs, it's the same issue. He treats that like some sort of rule because it worked earlier in his time here. You are bang on.

    These lineup practices have become superstitions.
    Last edited by ensco; 05-10-2019 at 06:38 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Copying jloome's excellent post here about Vanney playing a mostly B team in Atlanta, and adding to it below...



    Your strength can become your weakness.

    Vanney is big on lineup stability and “loyalty”, and it worked in 2016 and 2017, but it's turned on him. It has caused him to give too many opportunities in 2018 and 2019 to Delgado, Zavaleta, probably Bradley, as well as Bono. There needs to be more of a “feel” on when to make a change.

    The part about in game subs, it's the same issue. He treats that like some sort of rule because it worked earlier in his time here. You are bang on.

    These lineup practices have become superstitions.
    We'll see for sure I guess in the next few weeks; a two-game losing streak would make one assume some change is coming. We can't blame goaltending anymore, as Westberg has been excellent.

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    Is Vanney a good coach or does he need good players in order to be a good coach?

    The team is extremely slow and predictable with average players and he seems too stubborn to change. Discuss

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    Quote Originally Posted by DinamoTFC View Post
    Is Vanney a good coach or does he need good players in order to be a good coach?

    The team is extremely slow and predictable with average players and he seems too stubborn to change. Discuss
    I would posit that generally any good coach needs good players to be a good coach.

    Maybe Vanney can't elevate mediocre players as well as other coaches, but if all you have is mediocre players and a coach that can do that, at the end of the day you're still not winning anything, so it's kind of a moot point.

    Vanney has coached some good games this season and some highly questionable ones. On the whole now the questionable ones are starting to rack up.

    At the same time we have to acknowledge the squad we've left him with here until the summer is laughably thin. This is not an easy situation to navigate. I think he has to change something out there but it's not like there are tons of options for him. Just as an example, I have no doubt he would love to bench Delgado and challenge him by bringing someone into his role to start, but there's literally no good options. Chapman isn't good enough defensively and Fraser isn't good enough offensively or mobile enough for that position.

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    I agree good points.

    I was really hoping he would finally play with 2 strikers today because Hamilton has been invisible every game he's played as a lone striker.

    I also thought Deleon was playing well and aggressive and don't know how he came off but Delgado is still on the pitch.

    The last thing I want to mention is that our players are terrified of the net, they refuse to shoot and only want to walk the ball into the net (they did attempt more today but they were bad attempts).

 

 

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