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  1. #1411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Vanney can do brilliant strategic choices (typically when he has a full healthy "A" team) like in many of the games of the triple run, especially some of those games against Mexican sides, and then he pulls inexplicably horrible choices (typically when missing some players) that almost anyone with the slightest footy knowledge can see are idiotic.

    Why this second side to him? Is it hubris? Stupidity? Match fixing? A below average bench? Bi-polar? I don't get it.
    This is how I see it. The only thing I can think is that he was sending a message to players who were complaining about playing time.

    It’s bizarre. Hubris or judgment, just bizarre. And the moments he picks to do this are bad. I think our slump started early doors when he played a strange line up

  2. #1412
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Nelsen was sacked because

    a) he argued with his GM

    I don’t know but ok likely

    b) he didn't want to use monitoring equipment or load management

    This line has been peddled and I simply don’t buy it. The captain of a premier league club not knowing modern training methods has to be BS. And I today met a guy who used to be very involved with sport science at TFC until Vanney arrived and was fired who was fairly critical of MLS in general as being not bery modern - he called it “too American. They just think more load is better when it isn’t that way at all”. This was I. Response to my question about “why are they hurt all the time” and wasn’t sour grapes at all. I am only saying this because the amount of training injuries we have had this year has to call our training methods under this coaching staff to be called into question.

    c) he was resistant to analytics

    d) his training methods were substandard

    & he didn't get results


    There was a lot more going on at that time then there is now.
    I put my comments above inside yours

  3. #1413
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    I can see why Vanney would do what he did yesterday. I don't agree with it, but I understand why he did it. and TBH - I still wouldn't sack him:

    With regards to all 3 DP's sitting:
    - There have been many in TFC land who have said Michael Bradley can be easily replaced by Liam Fraiser. I'm hoping that argument has now been put to rest.
    - Jozy Altiodre is on Load management. That's the only way we can guarantee he stays fit for the August / September run and then playoffs. There is no argument against that.
    - Pozuelo is hurt - we all saw him get hacked. There's nothing anyone could do about that.

    With regards to Ciman and Zavaletta starting:
    - Moor is done and Mavinga probably hurt again or he is being Load managed like Altiorde.
    - Omar can't just walk in and take Ciman's place on the roster, even though everyone knows Omar should. There's seniority that has to play out, you still have to give Ciman a reason why his place is being taken away from him.
    - Ciman is showing time and time again that he isn't the player he was 2 years ago. He's done. This is just another example of why he'll need to be let go at the end of the year, no matter how "Fit" people will claim he is
    - Zavaleta - that's on Greg. Although with everything else being mentioned above, who do you start?
    Bradley did not have to sit with Poz and Jozy out. And if you accept your points around Ciman (which I don’t) he still could have played Omar. You just could not rely on a 21 year old to make up for the inevitable mistakes of two mistake prone defenders. Nonsensical.

  4. #1414
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    If we lose to the joke that is Cinci next week at home, then Vanney has to go and if he doesn't then I won't be far off convinced that we have issues above him as well.

    Note: New England plays Cinci and Orlando plays Red Bulls today. If either wins then we move out of a playoff spot. If both win we move to 9th.
    Last edited by portu; 07-21-2019 at 03:17 PM.

  5. #1415
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Bradley did not have to sit with Poz and Jozy out. And if you accept your points around Ciman (which I don’t) he still could have played Omar. You just could not rely on a 21 year old to make up for the inevitable mistakes of two mistake prone defenders. Nonsensical.
    I’d compare it to having thanksgiving dinner on day 1, a 5-course meal on day 2, and on day 3 half a box of kraft dinner.

    Let’s not forget that we played completely open too, against a team that loves to counter.

    It was all around poorly thought out.

  6. #1416
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Bradley did not have to sit with Poz and Jozy out. And if you accept your points around Ciman (which I don’t) he still could have played Omar. You just could not rely on a 21 year old to make up for the inevitable mistakes of two mistake prone defenders. Nonsensical.
    I wonder why he didn’t play Marky? It would have at least made sense to pair Fraser up with someone else defensive instead of just letting them run riot on us with more attack-oriented players on the pitch.

    Unless Vanney was basically giving the “hey, we need to play too” guys a dose of reality by playing them all at once there’s really no reason this team can’t play a bit of bunkerball too. The way we played yesterday as a whole was stupid against a team that springs counters and lives year round in a disgustingly hot and humid wasteland.

    We figured out early on that you need someone to score if you intend to outscore opponents, which is something this squad has failed to do on numerous occasions. We know that even a bad squad can make it difficult for another team to score.

    Why hasn’t this team figured that out? I’d hate to sit in a swamp and watch TFC lose 3-1 at home as much as anyone, but a 0-0, 1-1, or even 0-1 draw or loss would have been more palatable.

    Vanney’s approach isn’t suited for a difficult MLS schedule or an entire MLS squad for a number of reasons, which isn’t a defense of Vanney. When the squad looks good, they look really good. When they don’t, they look abysmal. It’s too limited and relies on our players having superhuman years like they did during the cup season while hoping MLS opposition doesn’t get any better (they have).

  7. #1417
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    NE is winning, keep it up boys
    Let's go Orlando

    I cheer against anybody that has the power to get #vanneyout

    Vanney please start bench players again next week. I don't care I won't be at the game

  8. #1418
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    You have to be careful with all these certainties about Vanney's choices.

    None of us are in the room. We don't know about injuries, off field issues, discipline stuff, injuries that aren’t reported.
    Last edited by ensco; 07-21-2019 at 06:50 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Also any guys posting “match fixing” posts needs to provide evidence, or stop.

    Right now it's just anonymous slander.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Also any guys posting “match fixing” posts needs to provide evidence, or stop.

    Right now it's just anonymous slander.
    Yeah accusations like that aren't a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    I cheer against anybody that has the power to get #vanneyout
    IMFC?

  12. #1422
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Also any guys posting “match fixing” posts needs to provide evidence, or stop.

    Right now it's just anonymous slander.

    i don't believe there was anything close to match fixing, rather really, really, really poor managing.

    and what put me off even more were Vanney's comments after the match suggesting that he gave players an opportunity to show what they've got and that they disappointed - that is incredibly disingenuous.

    you cannot expect to throw a novice into a match littered with other novices - its a recipe for loss of confidence and regression

    you want to enter young players into matches surrounded by experience to give them support and a chance to adjust

    this is ALL on Vanney and I'm a Vanney supporter

    the other point is it's a slap to fan growth

    there was a row in front of me where the regular season seat holders had given their tickets to 'friends' and they were there to see the stars - the comments i overheard were of massive disappointment amongst themselves and to their kids about how they attend one game and none of the stars are playing - they were so disappointed - i get load management but there is also entertainment and growing the sport - i get that this is a minor point in the scheme of things but the major point is you do not take the majority of your team out for load management and especially the backline - lunacy.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    i don't believe there was anything close to match fixing, rather really, really, really poor managing.

    and what put me off even more were Vanney's comments after the match suggesting that he gave players an opportunity to show what they've got and that they disappointed - that is incredibly disingenuous.

    you cannot expect to throw a novice into a match littered with other novices - its a recipe for loss of confidence and regression

    you want to enter young players into matches surrounded by experience to give them support and a chance to adjust

    this is ALL on Vanney and I'm a Vanney supporter

    the other point is it's a slap to fan growth

    there was a row in front of me where the regular season seat holders had given their tickets to 'friends' and they were there to see the stars - the comments i overheard were of massive disappointment amongst themselves and to their kids about how they attend one game and none of the stars are playing - they were so disappointed - i get load management but there is also entertainment and growing the sport - i get that this is a minor point in the scheme of things but the major point is you do not take the majority of your team out for load management and especially the backline - lunacy.....

    like yourself I was a Vanney supporter. I think he is a good tactician.
    But his action last night of sitting all the starters for a home game was a truly despicable act.
    It shows utter disregard for the fans for him to do what he did last night. Fans that paid good money and their valuable time to see an entertaining soccer game. You should see some of the comments on twitter, people travelled hours to see this game, they are pissed.
    Based on this act alone I want him gone, I can't look at the man without feelings of anger and disgust. I don't want to see his face on another press conference. I am not alone on this feeling.
    Last edited by stevep; 07-21-2019 at 08:35 PM.

  14. #1424
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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Yeah accusations like that aren't a joke.
    They’re pretty much a running joke at this point.

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    So TFC is below the playoff line , thanks Vanney you fool!! They could have been in what 5th. place with the win instead they are now in 8th, because of this idiot , go get a real job buddy like the rest of us, where if we screw up like he did yesterday are asses would be on the unemployment line! What a piece of work this idiot is I’m sorry!
    Last edited by SoccMan2; 07-21-2019 at 08:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    They’re pretty much a running joke at this point.
    Matchfixing shouldn't be laughed about. I don't think Vanney should be around, but to say he's throwing games and moreover doing it for personal profit is an abhorrent accusation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Matchfixing shouldn't be laughed about. I don't think Vanney should be around, but to say he's throwing games and moreover doing it for personal profit is an abhorrent accusation.
    That’s what I said last time it came up (insert shrugging shoulders emoji).

  18. #1428
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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    That’s what I said last time it came up (insert shrugging shoulders emoji).
    no, no, in no way am I saying Vanney is doing this for personal profit.
    absolutely not. i believe he was told to do this yesterday by his masters( the league)
    and it is not done for betting. it is done to get certain teams popular in their cities.


    think about this:
    there are two possible scenerios that happened yesterday

    1) vanney fielded this lineup himself or
    2) someone else told him to field this lineup (ie the league)

    option 1, -it was an idiotic lineup, vanney is not an idiot
    - it pissed off 25,000 fans that now hate him with a passion, why would he want to do that
    - it was a lineup not capable of winning the game, vanney knows this, he is not stupid why would he field a lineup not capable of winning the game
    -with our starters we easily beat Houston, Houston is absolutely terrible, why would he not do the obvious thing, he wants to win, it's in his dna as a coach to want to win

    IT IS OPTION 2, IT IS THE ONLY OPTION THAT MAKES SENSE, IT IS THE ONLY OPTION THAT FITS




    i really dont want to talk about this anymore as it is unproveable and it really is a big negative and mostly because you guys don't get it
    nor want to get it.
    Last edited by stevep; 07-21-2019 at 10:06 PM.

  19. #1429
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    ^This is an utterly ridiculous post. You are still accusing the manager and others of being complicit in an illegal activity without a shred of evidence. I think you need to walk it back.

    Moving on...

    ———————-

    This wasn’t something out of the blue.

    2017: Here's Vanney with no Gio, Altidore and Vazquez, and us getting slaughtered, in a derby match at home, in the middle of a 3 games in 7 night stretch.

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...-impact/lineup
    Last edited by ensco; 07-21-2019 at 10:24 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  20. #1430
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    This wasn’t something out of the blue.

    2017: Here's Vanney with no Gio, Altidore and Vazquez, and us getting slaughtered, in a derby match at home, in the middle of a 3 games in 7 night stretch.

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...-impact/lineup
    Very interesting; I'll watch the highlights when I have a chance, and check the squad rotation before & after this.

    Yet it still doesn't seem to be nearly as extreme of a coach's decision. First of all, it was Sept. 20; TFC had already clinched a playoff spot by then. And before this game, they had already "narrowed TFC’s Supporters’ Shield magic number to five, extended their unbeaten run to 11 and pulled the club within six points and two wins of tying the single-season MLS records in those respective categories."

    So it was resting players during a dominating season, in advance of playoffs which were already guaranteed. I do remember that some people weren't too happy about the play for multiple games around this time. TFC seemed to take their foot off the gas too much, and many felt that carried into the first phases of the playoffs, where TFC was a bit lucky to advance.

    More importantly, TFC still started with Moor & Mavinga, their first-choice CBs; and Bradley also started. Despite the three attacking stars being out, there was far less turnover from game to game, than we saw with this week's game.
    Last edited by Auzzy; 07-21-2019 at 10:48 PM.

  21. #1431
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    Total, total lunacy! C'mon man.

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    [QUOTE=ensco;1904203]^This is an utterly ridiculous post. You are still accusing the manager and others of being complicit in an illegal activity without a shred of evidence. I think you need to walk it back.

    Moving on...

    You have to be very careful what you write. it shows how knowledgeable you are;
    you wrote: and i quote
    you are still accusing the manager and others of being complicit in an illegal activity

    it is not illegal to fix a game:

    Is it legal for the NFL to fix games?

    That's the luxurious position the NFL finds itself in when it comes to its court-granted right to fix the outcome of professional football games. There is no question the NFLhas the legal right to fix a game. Any game, including the Super Bowl.Feb 5, 2018


    your comments are no longer really relevant, a travesty occurred last night and you defend tfc
    no matter what happens you will defend tfc. I have noticed that in your comments




    Last edited by stevep; 07-21-2019 at 11:39 PM.

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    [QUOTE=stevep;1904209]
    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^This is an utterly ridiculous post. You are still accusing the manager and others of being complicit in an illegal activity without a shred of evidence. I think you need to walk it back.

    Moving on...

    You have to be very careful what you write. it shows how knowledgeable you are;
    you wrote: and i quote
    you are still accusing the manager and others of being complicit in an illegal activity

    it is not illegal to fix a game:

    Is it legal for the NFL to fix games?

    That's the luxurious position the NFL finds itself in when it comes to its court-granted right to fix the outcome of professional football games. There is no question the NFLhas the legal right to fix a game. Any game, including the Super Bowl.Feb 5, 2018


    your comments are no longer really relevant, a travesty occurred last night and you defend tfc
    no matter what happens you will defend tfc. I have noticed that in your comments




    1. That’s not what match fixing is.
    2. Weren’t the referees fixing it through their earpieces last time?
    3. There’s already a scripted “sport.” It’s called wrestling, and a lot of people enjoy it and don’t get unnecessarily angry about the results.

    If you believe football is actually “entertainment” and not “sport,” then there isn’t much of a reason for you to be incensed over every loss given there’s no real winner or loser if it’s all predetermined.

  24. #1434
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post


    your comments are no longer really relevant, a travesty occurred last night and you defend tfc
    no matter what happens you will defend tfc. I have noticed that in your comments

    Ahhh this made my day. You really have no idea....

    Also bye -you're blocked
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  25. #1435
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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post

    1. That’s not what match fixing is.
    2. Weren’t the referees fixing it through their earpieces last time?
    3. There’s already a scripted “sport.” It’s called wrestling, and a lot of people enjoy it and don’t get unnecessarily angry about the results.

    If you believe football is actually “entertainment” and not “sport,” then there isn’t much of a reason for you to be incensed over every loss given there’s no real winner or loser if it’s all predetermined.
    He got that info from here:
    https://www.mediapost.com/publicatio...se-its-fi.html

    String Theories: Is The NFL Broken Because It's Fixed?

    The NFL argued, and the court agreed, that people who buy tickets to an NFL game have the contractual right to a seat to watch two teams play each other, and nothing else. The court even quoted Mayer’s ticket stub, which reads: “This ticket only grants entry into the stadium and a spectator seat for the specified NFL game.” (emphasis added)If the Patriots cheated to win that game, well, tough. Legally extrapolate that and it means: If any NFL outcome is fixed, well, tough.

    Also in 2010, in a separate court case against the NFL over branded items like hats and shirts, the league presented itself not as 32 separate teams, but as one singular business “unit in the entertainment marketplace.”Throughout that case, the NFL repeatedly positioned itself legally as a “sports entertainment” business, not a genuinely contested “sport.” College football, for example, is legally classified as a “collegiate sport.” The only other “sports entertainment” businesses are professional wrestling and roller derby.

    If you believe football is actually “entertainment” and not “sport,” then there isn’t much of a reason for you to be incensed over every loss given there’s no real winner or loser if it’s all predetermined.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    ^That is a side issue. A contractual debate.

    Please somebody google Tim Donaghy then explain to me about how fixing matches has no criminal consequences...

    (this is bananas that we even have to discuss this)
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^That is a side issue. A contractual debate.

    Please somebody google Tim Donaghy then explain to me about how fixing matches has no criminal consequences...

    (this is bananas that we even have to discuss this)
    Agree,my post was about were he got his info to claim game was fixed.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    For the record, I don't really think Vanney is involved in match fixing. I think he'd resign rather than have someone from the league f.o. dictate that he throw a certain game to help that market out.

    There are very above-board measures to help out poor teams in MLS, with allocation, salary budget restrictions and the like.

    That most certainly does not mean that Vanney is immune from pressure to play certain players by Manning or by Curtis against his better judgment. It's quite likely that is happening. For example benching Bradley to start last game could have been dictated to see if TFC could play hardball with Michael knowing that we had a "good enough" substitute (eg move him to TAM so we could bring in another DP).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That most certainly does not mean that Vanney is immune from pressure to play certain players by Manning or by Curtis against his better judgment. It's quite likely that is happening. For example benching Bradley to start last game could have been dictated to see if TFC could play hardball with Michael knowing that we had a "good enough" substitute (eg move him to TAM so we could bring in another DP).
    That’s the “management” part of management.

    It’s the equivalent of the trainers and medical staff telling you not to play a certain player due to a knock or injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    For the record, I don't really think Vanney is involved in match fixing. I think he'd resign rather than have someone from the league f.o. dictate that he throw a certain game to help that market out.

    There are very above-board measures to help out poor teams in MLS, with allocation, salary budget restrictions and the like.

    That most certainly does not mean that Vanney is immune from pressure to play certain players by Manning or by Curtis against his better judgment. It's quite likely that is happening. For example benching Bradley to start last game could have been dictated to see if TFC could play hardball with Michael knowing that we had a "good enough" substitute (eg move him to TAM so we could bring in another DP).
    I doubt they did that for that game - more like “give Fraser some time” but if they did, it backfired rather spectacularly. It is now evident that Fraser can play well with the right team around him but isn’t yet at the level where he can make up for others weaknesses - let alone anywhere near Bradley. The General made his DP case pretty effectively on Saturday.

 

 

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