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  1. #1681
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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    if we don't get a home game in the playoffs and go out early or don't make it there need to be serious questions.

    This squad is still the most expensive in the league and should never be involved in a scrap for playoffs.

    Watching LAFC tonight it's sad how far behind we've fallen behind the top in this league in such a short period of time.
    I don't think we are the most expensive in the league after this past window.

    We are top five and that is not our place in the standings so the value point stands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Yep, this is the truth. While I think I’m probably the one of the ones who made the Manchester City comparisons in the first place, it’s not necessary to have a highly-paid squad to play possession football (See: Ajax).

    TFC still does pay a lot of money for their squad. Instead of “expensive” the word “resources” should be used, because the expense isn’t what matters.

    TFC lacked (and probably still does) the resources to play this way, but not for lack of spending.

    City’s cash helped acquire the correct resources to play the way Pep wanted. It cost them a brazillion dollars, sure, but they were what he needed. That’s not the case with Vanney.

    The other thing is that this style of football is live or die by your weakest links. MLS isn’t comparable, because your weakest link is always some talentless American college kid or athletic journeyman filling out the roster.

    Talking about spending money is ridiculous when they’re spending money. Whether they’re spending it in the right places is debatable, but it’s also because this is MLS and even spending a lot of money may get you nowhere.

    Playing this style of football in MLS is on Vanney. Acquiring the resources is on the FO. If they can’t work together then we get what we have, period.
    To build this way is one of the most challenging things in any league but the number one ingredient is something we don't have after a championship- Patient support with measured expectations.

    I'm ready for it but this season was one of the most obvious to see that timing of transfers is everything. On paper and assembled from the start of the season this team would have been in a much better place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    To build this way is one of the most challenging things in any league but the number one ingredient is something we don't have after a championship- Patient support with measured expectations.

    I'm ready for it but this season was one of the most obvious to see that timing of transfers is everything. On paper and assembled from the start of the season this team would have been in a much better place.
    Right, and you have to multiply the challenges of other leagues by a much larger number due to the cap and perceptions about MLS, etc.

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    Informal sort of poll. Just quote reply this with answer.

    Are you #VanneyIn?

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    Vanney has lost the room. Vanney out!

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Informal sort of poll. Just quote reply this with answer.

    Are you #VanneyIn?
    It's time for a change. #VanneyOut

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    Considering that over 200 board members have viewed this thread but so few have weighed in, most people are probably on the fence or quietly ok with Vanney (for now at least). Despite the Twitter storm of #vanneyout, most people (including club management) seem ok to wait and see rather than install Fraser for the remainder of the season as a temporary "quick fix" (which is 100% what would happen if Vanney left or was fired).

    I don't think Toronto is as attractive a destination for foreigners as some think, we would get a young "up and coming" coach rather than a world top 10 coach, and a foreign passport and being an assistant with a pedigreed club doesn't guarantee success in MLS (ahem, Aron Winter).

    If Vanney was fired, as I said in the Columbus thread, here's our realistic choices for permanent coach:

    Fraser is the obvious choice, he already knows the players and the club and had experience as head coach for Chivas USA.

    Other assistants with experience that could be considered would be Kerry Zavagnin (currently with Sporting KC) and Pat Noonan (Philly).

    After that you are rolling the dice with a young foreign coach willing to come to MLS. There's a few successes (that typically move on back to Europe or elsewhere once they make their mark) and a larger number of failures. Not sure you'd get long term success with that path but you might get a good year or two.

    Or you could pull someone from the college ranks or USL. There's a few names out there. They won't have D1 experience though and not all of them will be a Bruce Arena.
    So maybe, say Pat Noonan can get Pozuelo to score more goals or our defense to stop leaking goals. Or maybe the problem is something else rather than coaching.

    Almost every coach gets fired eventually because things get stale (a few like Alex Ferguson get to retire on their own terms). If TFC doesn't make the playoffs, I expect a change, whether it is Vanney's fault or not. I wouldn't trust Curtis to pick a new coach but I'm sure Manning will be involved.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 08-19-2019 at 09:01 AM.
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    I have been a Vanney fan for a long time, but I think he can no longer motivate the team. Often firing a coach lights a fire under the players, as they realize that management is willing to make changes. Harder to make changes with players, but not impossible. And I think that not only has Vanney lost the room, but I think his strategic and tactical decisions are contributing to the malaise.

    #VanneyOut

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    I'm not sure this is all on Vanney.

    Michael has refused to talk about his contract talks but his lack of leadership on the field and emotion when we go up or behind has me believing that those talks have gone terribly. That, the VDW issues, Jozy going off on rants a couple times, Mavinga disappearing to get married while faking an injury, Ciman lasering a ball into Zaveletta during their shambolic pairing, Oso yelling at everyone when he isn't a captain, and many other examples of general discontent I think there is a big lack of team spirit that was the hallmark of 2017.

    That points to way more than just Vanney. This is the club top to bottom. Manning is the only one left from the leadership that brought us the cup and I have a feeling he is a complete d-bag away from the cameras as sometimes he is in front of them.

    I was pissed with every move Vanney made on Saturday even the Moor sub at first. His explanation for going that way rather than the TAMs at that point makes great sense but I still think the lineup and first two subs were .....terrible. But as we've seen before there is so much going on in the background we don't know about that it makes this guessing game infuriatingly frustrating.

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    Vanney cannot motivate and has made freakish lineups and subs, time for a change, Vanney out.

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    Vanney should be on the chopping block for a number of reasons...namely the fact that he's been given all the types of players needed to play his desired formation and with 8 games left in the season (with the playoffs ever so close to slipping away yet again) he's yet to give them starting minutes all together. Not to mention having the highest payroll in the league in perpetuity.

    Surely MLSE must be looking at other, better performing clubs in the league with a fraction of payroll and asking themselves "What are we really paying for here?"

    A change is needed and is probably coming, just not immediately. Run out the season as is in my opinion and let the chips fall where they may. If something was to happen before the end of this season, who takes the reigns? Robin Fraser?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC_Allez View Post
    Vanney should be on the chopping block for a number of reasons...namely the fact that he's been given all the types of players needed to play his desired formation and with 8 games left in the season (with the playoffs ever so close to slipping away yet again) he's yet to give them starting minutes all together. Not to mention having the highest payroll in the league in perpetuity.

    Surely MLSE must be looking at other, better performing clubs in the league with a fraction of payroll and asking themselves "What are we really paying for here?"

    A change is needed and is probably coming, just not immediately. Run out the season as is in my opinion and let the chips fall where they may. If something was to happen before the end of this season, who takes the reigns? Robin Fraser?
    Pretty sure Fraser was brought in upon Vanney's request so not likely going to get anything different I would think with him. I think if Vanney goes they have to move Fraser with him unless he really does have his own opinion that he is making known to his boss that is not the same as Vanney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    Pretty sure Fraser was brought in upon Vanney's request so not likely going to get anything different I would think with him. I think if Vanney goes they have to move Fraser with him unless he really does have his own opinion that he is making known to his boss that is not the same as Vanney.
    Robin Fraser will be Interim in the (less likely) scenario where they dump Vanney before season end. Clubs almost always pick an Interim internally and Fraser is it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Robin Fraser will be Interim in the (less likely) scenario where they dump Vanney before season end. Clubs almost always pick an Interim internally and Fraser is it.
    He'd be the likely replacement.

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    Hope not. They can and should do better

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    Default These are not your father's type of substitutions

    There are 3 types of sub

    Like for Like - the sub of one player for another player who is in that position - usually done due to injury or fatigue but sometimes also to provide a slight adjustment in style of how that position is played (Mavinga in for Zavs) - rarer now then it used to be - its ubiquity as the 1st or second sub until about 5 years ago causes many people on twitter to lose their feces when the other types of sub are now done

    Sub to Change formation Obvious - Used to be the only type of formation sub seen - when teams are in need of a goal or in need of closing out a game - "bring on an attacker" or "bring on a defender" - RARELY used by Vanney & newer managers in MLS

    Sub to Change formation by releasing other players - has always been around but was the purvey of the "thinking man's manager" (i.e. Mariner would never have done this) - specific sub to place a player in one position to free others to either act more defensively (very rare) or more attacking - e.g. Moor for Mullins in on Saturday allowed the FB's to push up & Poz to go from the left to forward - Most often type of sub used by Vanney & most MLS managers - becoming ubiquitous in top European leagues

    ***********

    I would strongly encourage people to start looking at how other MLS teams do their subs - we rarely notice how or why they are done until they produce a result.

    One criticism I have of Vanney is our teams are not good at all at recognizing the threat provided by opposition subs. Example - the Orlando goal against - speed on that wing - our FB on that side got caught up the field within a minute & look who scored. You can see the brain trust thinking it through but NOBODY on the field makes the call to watch out for - we only see Moor/Gonzalez reacting to where people are.

    This speaks to me of a deeper problem with the team - the inability to adjust mentally to opposition changes & to game states. There are 5 starters I see who do this - Westberg, Moor, Gonzalez, Poz, Altidore. Everybody else on the field takes 3- 8 minutes to adjust to a change in how the opposition is doing things & to a game state change - they usually only change approach because Vanney shouted out something or one of the 5 pointed out what is going on - yes I include Bradley in this.

    The inability of this team to react is our Achilles heel. We are usually either VERY good for the first 5 minutes of the first half or take about 10 minutes to get going. We rely upon that first goal more then other teams because we do not react well to adversity. Failures cascade.

    This is mentality & awareness.

    And I am coming to the conclusion that this is a mentality issue both from coaching and from on field leadership. We do not react well to change and it shows every damn week.
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 08-20-2019 at 06:30 AM.

  17. #1697
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    In 2017 it was often the other way around. Other teams didn't adjust to Vanney. Having several different options in formation helped, which not all MLS sides can do. He couldn't do that in 2018 due to injuries and not in 2019 until recently due to lack of player options.

    Those who want an immediate firing of Vanney should ask themselves if Fraser would do better for the rest of the season as far as adjusting to other teams, otherwise TFC should wait until the season is done to decide about Vanney.

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    I dont want Vanney to be fired. I just want him to do better. Subs are an issue but for me it is usually about Vanney taking too long to react and make a change. Sometimes the subs are odd too - although I don't think the Moor for Mullins sub is an example of a bad sub - that one was thoughtful and worked.

    My biggest concern is that coming out of the dressing room we are often bad. Both at the start of the game and out of the locker room at the half. Coaching has to address that, so if he isn't the cause he isn't the solution either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    In 2017 it was often the other way around. Other teams didn't adjust to Vanney. Having several different options in formation helped, which not all MLS sides can do. He couldn't do that in 2018 due to injuries and not in 2019 until recently due to lack of player options.

    Those who want an immediate firing of Vanney should ask themselves if Fraser would do better for the rest of the season as far as adjusting to other teams, otherwise TFC should wait until the season is done to decide about Vanney.
    I agree with this. But even if we make the playoffs I still think Vanney's position needs to be seriously evaluated. Sneaking into the playoffs and doing nothing should not be what this club is after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    I agree with this. But even if we make the playoffs I still think Vanney's position needs to be seriously evaluated. Sneaking into the playoffs and doing nothing should not be what this club is after.
    yes. i agree with that. I also think that there is a problem above him too. Not sure if it is Manning or Curtis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    yes. i agree with that. I also think that there is a problem above him too. Not sure if it is Manning or Curtis.
    This is it, for me; agree with you both, but something feels… off.

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    I'd do #ManningOut and #CurtisOut at year end, if we don’t heat up here.

    The decision re Vanney can belong to the new guy.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I'd do #ManningOut and #CurtisOut at year end, if we don’t heat up here.

    The decision re Vanney can belong to the new guy.
    Might be part of the problem or the problem itself. Doubt we will see them gone before Vanney atm. Tbh I'd like to see what they'd do if Vanney was gone. Not that they inspire hope but who knows. It may cement their departure.

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    Seeing as we're hooked on everything from the USMNT system, why not get Tab Ramos as next manager?

    The guy is good, obviously can develop youth players, and has the background the management seems to value most. Bonus is how much it will make the USMNT Twitter explode.

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    I still like Vanney's analysis of the game and think he is a good coach. In 2017 his adjustments in the second half of games earned us points a number of times. I know the team roster was different back then but I still believe he has it in him to do that stuff still. 2018 the mentality wasn't right with the group and adding the injury issues there was no surprise to how it ended. 2019 had a rough start and the roster is not settled and we see the result of that now. The only thing that none of us know is how much micromanaging is he getting from the guys above him. Play this guy, don't play this guy....we know it can happen. He is trying to win with this team but also trying to keep his job by keeping his management happy and there might be contradictory factors at play there. I don't want to see Vanney go but I really get a slimy snakey feeling about Curtis and a little bit from Manning. I wouldn't care if either one of the latter left or were let go. Vanney I still like though even though I have been mad at some subs selection/timing here and there. I think he is still learning all the time and will be a better and better coach as time goes on. He was a new coach only so long ago and he had a couple playoff runs and CCL runs to deal with concerning roster rotation and mental/physical fatigue. MLS Cup win and CCL final. All those things take different tolls on the roster and the team. He is learning the whole way how to deal with those things including mistakes made in handling stuff. Now that he has a taste or all that he may make even better decisions in the future. Most MLS coaches don't have that experience and I think that is valuable. We can't expect him to know how to deal with it all in just a few years. In my opinion I think he is doing alright and I want to see what happens in the next 5 years to be honest.

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    If people are looking at the Montreal situation today & thinking "You know maybe that is not the best of timing" & also want Vanney out now, ur not thinking this all through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    If people are looking at the Montreal situation today & thinking "You know maybe that is not the best of timing" & also want Vanney out now, ur not thinking this all through.
    I wonder how many would want Remi Garde as TFC coach? After all, the Impact just hired the coach that Houston has just fired. Maybe Houston can then hire Vanney and the coaching merry-go-round will be complete.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    I still like Vanney's analysis of the game and think he is a good coach. In 2017 his adjustments in the second half of games earned us points a number of times. I know the team roster was different back then but I still believe he has it in him to do that stuff still. 2018 the mentality wasn't right with the group and adding the injury issues there was no surprise to how it ended. 2019 had a rough start and the roster is not settled and we see the result of that now. The only thing that none of us know is how much micromanaging is he getting from the guys above him. Play this guy, don't play this guy....we know it can happen. He is trying to win with this team but also trying to keep his job by keeping his management happy and there might be contradictory factors at play there. I don't want to see Vanney go but I really get a slimy snakey feeling about Curtis and a little bit from Manning. I wouldn't care if either one of the latter left or were let go. Vanney I still like though even though I have been mad at some subs selection/timing here and there. I think he is still learning all the time and will be a better and better coach as time goes on. He was a new coach only so long ago and he had a couple playoff runs and CCL runs to deal with concerning roster rotation and mental/physical fatigue. MLS Cup win and CCL final. All those things take different tolls on the roster and the team. He is learning the whole way how to deal with those things including mistakes made in handling stuff. Now that he has a taste or all that he may make even better decisions in the future. Most MLS coaches don't have that experience and I think that is valuable. We can't expect him to know how to deal with it all in just a few years. In my opinion I think he is doing alright and I want to see what happens in the next 5 years to be honest.
    Very fair take

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    I still like Vanney's analysis of the game and think he is a good coach. In 2017 his adjustments in the second half of games earned us points a number of times. I know the team roster was different back then but I still believe he has it in him to do that stuff still. 2018 the mentality wasn't right with the group and adding the injury issues there was no surprise to how it ended. 2019 had a rough start and the roster is not settled and we see the result of that now. The only thing that none of us know is how much micromanaging is he getting from the guys above him. Play this guy, don't play this guy....we know it can happen. He is trying to win with this team but also trying to keep his job by keeping his management happy and there might be contradictory factors at play there. I don't want to see Vanney go but I really get a slimy snakey feeling about Curtis and a little bit from Manning. I wouldn't care if either one of the latter left or were let go. Vanney I still like though even though I have been mad at some subs selection/timing here and there. I think he is still learning all the time and will be a better and better coach as time goes on. He was a new coach only so long ago and he had a couple playoff runs and CCL runs to deal with concerning roster rotation and mental/physical fatigue. MLS Cup win and CCL final. All those things take different tolls on the roster and the team. He is learning the whole way how to deal with those things including mistakes made in handling stuff. Now that he has a taste or all that he may make even better decisions in the future. Most MLS coaches don't have that experience and I think that is valuable. We can't expect him to know how to deal with it all in just a few years. In my opinion I think he is doing alright and I want to see what happens in the next 5 years to be honest.
    Not sure about giving Vanney another 5 years, else this is exactly where I'm at with Vanney & co. (very well summed up).

    There'd be a lesson learned, for sure, as far as how the league punishes you for doing well (parity) and how that affects roster decisions.

    For me, though, we really can't afford to not have a respectable showing in the playoffs (at least win a game); hard for me to sit here and say he'd have to go, were we to fall short… but, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it would certainly be fair for his position, going forward, to be under review, in such an event.

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    He's got the end of the season for me. Never a fan of mid or near end season removals unless it's absolutely necessary and tbh we wouldn't gain anything in the current situation

 

 

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