New Vanney evaluation thread

[TFC Tifoso]

And that's a totally fair argument. Vanney's adjustments didn't work. Part of that was that his plans were thrown out when he had to sub in Endoh for Seba instead of presumably one of beitashour, Osorio or Delgado (Endoh was warmed up and ready to come in before Seba went down). That made the rest of his adjustments difficult. He set the game up for us to be up early and have MTL chase the game, that's why Ricketts was on the bench. Cheyrou was useful when he came on because he provided creativity and service most of the rest of the squad can't provide. even then I wasn't a very big fan of His subs.

But like you say, overall we're in a really good position. If everyone's healthy down the stretch I could definitely see us chasing the SS and the MLS cup. The east looks especially easy for us. Playing NYCFC in a home and away makes me a little nervous just because of there pitch - anything can happen there. Otherwise I think we match up very well and are significantly more talented than every other eastern conference team. My bet is LA comes out of the west. They're the only team I think can match up with us talent wise.

yeah that's a great assessment, and its not too hard to tell his hand was a bit forced with the subs....

I'm not too worried about winning the Shield this year.....I'm really interested to see how the team steps up not in Seba's absence.....to me it will say a lot about how Vanney prepares this team and how well he can execute a Plan B.
Looks like Seba will be out 3 games.....I'd be satisfied with taking points in 2 out of 3 games without him, providing at least one of those games is a win.

But I gotta laugh when the argument is made that TFC is only better because we have better players.
It is only logical that would be the case, and besides that, someone obviously needs to prepare these players during the week.
Even the best managers in the world would not be able to take a bottom feeder to the top year to year without bringing in better talent.
Once in a while like Leichester did.....sure. And, for the record I think they will be nowhere close to the top this year.
Anomalies happen, but too often it gets wrongly accepted as a trend.

[Oldtimer]

Part one of a 1on1 between Vanney and Molinaro. Have at er kids...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/toron...ue-soccer-mls/

Thanks, good find. I really liked this:

For me, it’s important that each guy on the team feels as though he’s adding something to our team. There are a lot of coaches who have their starting 11 and that’s it—they really work their 11 and everybody else is on the perimeter. For me, every guy has to be invested, and feel as though they play a role in our success as a team.

This perhaps is part of the secret why our team has such depth. After all, we've won games when 4 out of the starting 11 were in their first year at a first-team level. Vanney seems to have a real strong point in how he handles, motivates, and improves the young players.

[MightyDM]

Thanks, good find. I really liked this:



This perhaps is part of the secret why our team has such depth. After all, we've won games when 4 out of the starting 11 were in their first year at a first-team level. Vanney seems to have a real strong point in how he handles, motivates, and improves the young players.

Yes, he does. That's also his area of strength and expertise, and an important one in MLS given the lopsided roster. I do think he needs to be stronger in his handling of superstars (ie Seba should not have been allowed to travel to Orlando) but his tactics and selections have improved considerably this year (over, for example, the two losses to Montreal to end last year) so he has shown capacity to learn. Substitutions still are not a strength - Endoh and Ricketts, for example, don't open a bunkering team up in the way Cheyrou and possibly Cooper would.

His development of our young talent has been first rate and is a reason to keep him on.

[Auzzy]

I made that clear in my post. This reply is only to the last sentence.

I read your complete post. (Others may not want to read that much.) Nothing in your post makes clear why we should close this thread. So you evaluated him in your post, and feel he's improved significantly. So what? Others will want to evaluate him the same, or differently.

[TFC Tifoso]

Yes, he does. That's also his area of strength and expertise, and an important one in MLS given the lopsided roster. I do think he needs to be stronger in his handling of superstars (ie Seba should not have been allowed to travel to Orlando) but his tactics and selections have improved considerably this year (over, for example, the two losses to Montreal to end last year) so he has shown capacity to learn. Substitutions still are not a strength - Endoh and Ricketts, for example, don't open a bunkering team up in the way Cheyrou and possibly Cooper would.

His development of our young talent has been first rate and is a reason to keep him on.

as per one of Larson's articles last week, management was expecting to give Seba some time off during the road trip to spend some time with his newborn, had he approached management.....he never did.

And it doesn't seem like Seba is the type of guy who would be happy to sit as long as he is with the team.....

[burlington Red]

as per one of Larson's articles last week, management was expecting to give Seba some time off during the road trip to spend some time with his newborn, had he approached management.....he never did.

And it doesn't seem like Seba is the type of guy who would be happy to sit as long as he is with the team.....

He'll be sitting now for 4 weeks because of his eagerness to play. Management needs to be more authoritative in these types of scenarios. All players should want to play every minute regardless of their fitness, but sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and hold them back. Management should not be waiting on him coming forward, they need to be proactive. He'll be out for 4 weeks, and probably take him a game or two to get back up to match fitness again.
We hear Vanney stressing the importance of having a squad in his interview, here was a perfect time to utilize it, a star player who's partner's just had a kid and he is suffering with a strain.
I know it's hard to say no to your main player but that's why you're the manager, you are there to make the tough decisions that not everyone is going to like.

[OgtheDim]

He'll be sitting now for 4 weeks because of his eagerness to play. .

A reminder that correlation does not imply causation. There is no way of proving that he is injured because he hasn't taken a break since the CBus game.

And, no, stands to reason isn't proof.

[Soccer Mum]

Seems like this thread is bi-polar based on the most recent result. Points dropped and it's Vanney out. A win and it's Vanney genius. Can we please stop being a fickle fan base?

[TFC Tifoso]

He'll be sitting now for 4 weeks because of his eagerness to play. Management needs to be more authoritative in these types of scenarios. All players should want to play every minute regardless of their fitness, but sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and hold them back. Management should not be waiting on him coming forward, they need to be proactive. He'll be out for 4 weeks, and probably take him a game or two to get back up to match fitness again.
We hear Vanney stressing the importance of having a squad in his interview, here was a perfect time to utilize it, a star player who's partner's just had a kid and he is suffering with a strain.
I know it's hard to say no to your main player but that's why you're the manager, you are there to make the tough decisions that not everyone is going to like.

damned if you do....damned if you don't.....

had TFC sat him to give a break and lost in Orlando, how would that have gone over?......not well at all I'd say.....it would've been "Vanney doesn't know what he's doing", "we had a chance to take 3 points and go to 1st but didn't because our top player wasn't in", etc, etc.

as far as I've heard, it was only during (not before) the weekend game when he started feeling sore.....

[burlington Red]

A reminder that correlation does not imply causation. There is no way of proving that he is injured because he hasn't taken a break since the CBus game.

And, no, stands to reason isn't proof.

a reminder that strains can lead to injuries, so why take the chance in this game. They did and looked what happened, we lost the game and him for 4 weeks.
I'm playing devils advocate here, we all want to see Giovinco play every game, but sometimes not it's just not feasible. If it was a one off game such as a final etc sure I'd of played him but this game won't define our season esp considering coming off that great win in Orlando.
The fact management were thinking of resting him if he asked shows you were their mindset was. He's had a busy few weeks with stress etc related to having a new child, and then picking up a strain close to this game.
Hindsight always 20/20, and not all strains lead to injuries, but it certainly increases your chances. I had a bad feeling re this going into this game.
We have the squad to carry this for a while so it's not all doom and gloom, and hopefully Cooper steps up and fills that creative void

[OgtheDim]

a reminder that strains can lead to injuries, so why take the chance in this game. They did and looked what happened, we lost the game and him for 4 weeks.

He wasn't feeling the strain in Orlando. Vanney said Giovinco felt it in the first half against the Impact.

Its complete supposition to say not sitting him is what caused the injuries.

[burlington Red]

He wasn't feeling the strain in Orlando. Vanney said Giovinco felt it in the first half against the Impact.

Its complete supposition to say not sitting him is what caused the injuries.

You've mentioned cbus now you're mentioning Orlando. He had a strain leading up to Montreal game hence why it may have been advisable to rest him. Nothing to do with any other games.
Anyway it's done n we move on

[OgtheDim]

He had a strain leading up to Montreal game ..

That's not what we've been told. We have been told he felt the strain in the first half of the Montreal game and tried to play through it.

[Redcoe15]

Seba should not have been allowed to travel to Orlando

as per one of Larson's articles last week, management was expecting to give Seba some time off during the road trip to spend some time with his newborn, had he approached management.....he never did.

And it doesn't seem like Seba is the type of guy who would be happy to sit as long as he is with the team.....

In this country, if Seba was a hockey player, he would have been lionized to the max for putting his team's interests well ahead of his own.

[Areathrasher]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/greg-...tian-giovinco/

Part two of the 1on1. Some interesting stuff in there.

[MightyDM]

I read your complete post. (Others may not want to read that much.) Nothing in your post makes clear why we should close this thread. So you evaluated him in your post, and feel he's improved significantly. So what? Others will want to evaluate him the same, or differently.

OK. So don't close the thread. Just making the point that this thread, whether titled so or not, is really a death watch thread and he has moved beyond that.

[MightyDM]

A reminder that correlation does not imply causation. There is no way of proving that he is injured because he hasn't taken a break since the CBus game.

And, no, stands to reason isn't proof.

The injury he has is an overuse injury and there are numerous studies about athletes needing rest etc. It's demonstrably proven that lack of rest leads to injuries like this. Can we prove definitively that this injury was caused by the lack of rest and excess travel? Without access to Seba's medical records, perhaps not. But we do know the above facts ( see all the articles about injuries in the Premiership and the lack of injuries at Leicester last season for proof if you need it ) and we also know that uniquely on the team Seba had played nearly every minute since his return from ( a similar ) injury. There is also no evidence of any another reason for the injury. The only reasonable conclusion is overuse, unless there is any other potential explanation you might have. Was he running the 400 metre hurdles in training perhaps, or doing jumping squats with too heavy a weight? if there is evidence of something like that I'd be keen to hear that. If not, we'll just have to go with the clear and obvious conclusion.

[MightyDM]

In this country, if Seba was a hockey player, he would have been lionized to the max for putting his team's interests well ahead of his own.

I think his attitude is fantastic. But the coach should not have flown him to Orlando. He needed the rest.

[ensco]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/greg-...tian-giovinco/

Part two of the 1on1. Some interesting stuff in there.

The podcast that I believe Vanney is referring to is this one. I put it up a few weeks back. The "weak link" discussion about soccer is a tangent in the podcast, but the whole thing is worth listening to

http://revisionisthistory.com/episod...undred-million

The bit that gave me pause was the part about Vanney having to talk to his wife about what gets said about him on social media. That made me think. It's a reminder to remember that these are human beings with families. I have really only criticized the people who hired Vanney, but to his family, there is no difference, of course.

[Oldtimer]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/greg-...tian-giovinco/

Part two of the 1on1. Some interesting stuff in there.

A really good interview that shows his humanity.

[DinamoTFC]

Good interview and shows thst Vanney is intelligent and understands himself and his job. These are signs of a coach with great potential.

Hopefully this all comes to fruition because tfc needs and is dieing for any bit of success, and just as the article says, we have a horrible history that haunts and follows us every where we go until we get that success.

[TFC Tifoso]

Good interview and shows thst Vanney is intelligent and understands himself and his job. These are signs of a coach with great potential.

Hopefully this all comes to fruition because tfc needs and is dieing for any bit of success, and just as the article says, we have a horrible history that haunts and follows us every where we go until we get that success.

imo Vanney is the most intelligent and tactically competent manager we've ever had by miles (over the rest of them).....I've been saying it for a long time now....it shows in the results....

[Areathrasher]

The podcast that I believe Vanney is referring to is this one. I put it up a few weeks back. The "weak link" discussion about soccer is a tangent in the podcast, but the whole thing is worth listening to

http://revisionisthistory.com/episod...undred-million

The bit that gave me pause was the part about Vanney having to talk to his wife about what gets said about him on social media. That made me think. It's a reminder to remember that these are human beings with families. I have really only criticized the people who hired Vanney, but to his family, there is no difference, of course.

Wonder if he got the link from here

[ensco]

Wonder if he got the link from here

I wondered that too. But Malcolm Gladwell is a big deal, he could have gotten wind of it in lots of ways.

[Oldtimer]

Wonder if he got the link from here

I'd be worried if he's reading this board. If anyone took their advice from here we'd be changing head coaches every 3 months, Altidore would have been shipped out for a bag of balls, and we would have changed strategies and formations every 2 games.

[ensco]

I'd be worried if he's reading this board. If anyone took their advice from here we'd be changing head coaches every 3 months, Altidore would have been shipped out for a bag of balls, and we would have changed strategies and formations every 2 games.

I suspect they mostly all read it. The comment by Vanney about answering his wife's questions re social media was illuminating.

If you are deeply interested in the team, how can you not come on here? Who is more interested than the players and management? Especially in a case like this, where almost all the real discussion is happening here, and not in mainstream media (no offence intended, Larson and Molinaro!)

Of course we'll never know. Managements always tell the players not to go on here, but I bet they themselves secretly read it. Players will tell everyone they don't read it, but then secretly read it. It's the way of the world.

Those with long memories will recall that a previous TFC President PMed one of the posters here to discuss/argue some things that were said on these boards.

[Oldtimer]

Those with long memories will recall that a previous TFC President PMed one of the posters here to discuss/argue some things that were said on these boards.

I remember that. Anselmi was quite the character.

[Jack]

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson
and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.

If Vanney were to coach Chicago and bring the team to top of the table, then you could give full credit to the coach, although TFC have the best roster in the league, including MVP, therefore they are expected to win. Right now, 95% of credit should go to the team and I give Vanney very little credit, if any, because I feel he has somehow become a burden to the team.

Not being able to win one single game when having a man advantage, or two, against some teams with weak opponents in 6 attempts is sending smoke signals to top brass that a catastrophe is waiting to happen, and more than likely it will come in the playoffs.

Vanney also has a track record of making bizarre, perplexing substitutions that have cost us many games and this will contiue into the playoffs.

I can't see this team making a deep playoff run with Vanney.

I was specifically responding to the statement that said we hadn't dominated games this season. That requires cherry picking...

And I said he doesn't get all the credit, but he should get some.

[KurtLarSUN]

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson
and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.

If Vanney were to coach Chicago and bring the team to top of the table, then you could give full credit to the coach, although TFC have the best roster in the league, including MVP, therefore they are expected to win. Right now, 95% of credit should go to the team and I give Vanney very little credit, if any, because I feel he has somehow become a burden to the team.

Not being able to win one single game when having a man advantage, or two, against some teams with weak opponents in 6 attempts is sending smoke signals to top brass that a catastrophe is waiting to happen, and more than likely it will come in the playoffs.

Vanney also has a track record of making bizarre, perplexing substitutions that have cost us many games and this will contiue into the playoffs.

I can't see this team making a deep playoff run with Vanney.

Remember that one time Vanney subbed on Ricketts against Real Salt Lake and Ricketts scored the game-winner? Was that perplexing?

Oh, and blaming the coach for dropping points to teams with a man advantage is really silly. I mean, perhaps Altidore should have scored against Houston instead of striking the post from in close. Perhaps Osorio should have scored from five metres out against Montreal instead of missing the target completely.

My Lord is this getting tiresome.

Players win games. Managers do work in advance to set the team up in a way they hope will be successful.

I can see this team making a deep playoff run. I can also see them losing in the first round.

[TFC Tifoso]

Remember that one time Vanney subbed on Ricketts against Real Salt Lake and Ricketts scored the game-winner? Was that perplexing?

Oh, and blaming the coach for dropping points to teams with a man advantage is really silly. I mean, perhaps Altidore should have scored against Houston instead of striking the post from in close. Perhaps Osorio should have scored from five metres out against Montreal instead of missing the target completely.

My Lord is this getting tiresome.

Players win games. Managers do work in advance to set the team up in a way they hope will be successful.

I can see this team making a deep playoff run. I can also see them losing in the first round.

pffft oh please Larson....you missed the first 8 or so years here.....now THAT was fun!! .....