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  1. #1471
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    Vanney deserves to the end of the year and then reevaluate at that point. I’m not sure any other coach could get more out of this squad with all the injuries and absences. Is Vanney the right man to lead the revamped squad going forward I’m not sure. There are very few coaches that are guaranteed success in the MLS and I’m not sure any of them are available.

    But further to the other thread my point is this. If Vanney ran out all of the players with no rotation and the players get injured then what? Our season is done and it’s august and many on this board would be up in arms. That was my point which I did not convey correctly. I just found the comments about “match fixing” absurd and then went off due to being called a corporate shill.

    further more if I offended anyone I apologize, that was not my intent.

    We all want the the same thing at the end of the day
    Last edited by TheGoodson; 07-22-2019 at 10:20 PM.

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    I agree with your statement regarding Vanney. He deserves the rest of the season and outside of Frasier as interim, there is no one that can jump into that role and succesfully save the season. Is Vanney the right man moving forward to next season, I have strong doubts but would like to be proven wrong. I purposely stayed off this board until now so that I can look at things more objectively after having to sit through that 90+ minutes of mediocrity on Saturday. I feel that Chapman, Zavaleta and possibly Ciman have played there last games this season and possibly as a Red. To be that shockingly bad cannot be tolerated without consequence.

    For me what is being overlooked in all the #Vanneyout talk is why is our training and medical staff being held more accountable. It was raised on this board, I cannot remember if it was this post or another, that the majority of our knocks and injuries come from training. How is in possible for a team to see this many injuries, and repeat ones to boot, and no one in a senior position bats an eye towards the training and medical staff. Manning said we were bringing in this sports science team to work with the team. Since then the list of hurt players has not changed. Auro x2, Moor, Altidore, Osorio, Mavinga, Bradley, Ciman, DeLeon, Morrow have all been out hurt and those are just off the top of my head. Oh and don't foget Gallardo. It is not entirely Vanneys fault but to field a week line up at home when you are in a dog fight for a play off spot is not that smartest choice. Especially considering unless we shoot up the standings we will not have a home playoff game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside16 View Post
    I agree with your statement regarding Vanney. He deserves the rest of the season and outside of Frasier as interim, there is no one that can jump into that role and succesfully save the season. Is Vanney the right man moving forward to next season, I have strong doubts but would like to be proven wrong. I purposely stayed off this board until now so that I can look at things more objectively after having to sit through that 90+ minutes of mediocrity on Saturday. I feel that Chapman, Zavaleta and possibly Ciman have played there last games this season and possibly as a Red. To be that shockingly bad cannot be tolerated without consequence.

    For me what is being overlooked in all the #Vanneyout talk is why is our training and medical staff being held more accountable. It was raised on this board, I cannot remember if it was this post or another, that the majority of our knocks and injuries come from training. How is in possible for a team to see this many injuries, and repeat ones to boot, and no one in a senior position bats an eye towards the training and medical staff. Manning said we were bringing in this sports science team to work with the team. Since then the list of hurt players has not changed. Auro x2, Moor, Altidore, Osorio, Mavinga, Bradley, Ciman, DeLeon, Morrow have all been out hurt and those are just off the top of my head. Oh and don't foget Gallardo. It is not entirely Vanneys fault but to field a week line up at home when you are in a dog fight for a play off spot is not that smartest choice. Especially considering unless we shoot up the standings we will not have a home playoff game.
    I was one of the people who raised the fact that our injuries are muscular training injuries and this is a constant problem. Itís quite obvious, really.

    Last week I went to a training session with my son, who is a serious player. It is at a very advanced sports science facility. I asked the trainer why TFC has so many muscular injuries. He didnít really want to comment directly as he has advised TFC in the past, but in a very respectful way he basically said that they overtrain (like all the teams in MLS )- he said ďthey are very AmericanĒ - and implied that they donít use the latest sports science. I understood him to mean that a player like Michael Bradley will train well using their methods as he has infinite endurance but that others might not. He said that sometimes training differently - more focus on high intensity short workouts for example - is far more successful than an approach focused solely on endurance.

    He was very careful not to criticize TFC or its training staff directly, more comments about the league, but thatís what he meant.

    I think it goes back to Nelsen. We have to assume that Nelsen was aware of the most modern Premier League methods but we were told ďhe didnít train hard enoughĒ etc. It could be that there is something to the point about overtraining - and Nelsen knew it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside16 View Post
    I agree with your statement regarding Vanney. He deserves the rest of the season and outside of Frasier as interim, there is no one that can jump into that role and succesfully save the season. Is Vanney the right man moving forward to next season, I have strong doubts but would like to be proven wrong. I purposely stayed off this board until now so that I can look at things more objectively after having to sit through that 90+ minutes of mediocrity on Saturday. I feel that Chapman, Zavaleta and possibly Ciman have played there last games this season and possibly as a Red. To be that shockingly bad cannot be tolerated without consequence.

    For me what is being overlooked in all the #Vanneyout talk is why is our training and medical staff being held more accountable. It was raised on this board, I cannot remember if it was this post or another, that the majority of our knocks and injuries come from training. How is in possible for a team to see this many injuries, and repeat ones to boot, and no one in a senior position bats an eye towards the training and medical staff. Manning said we were bringing in this sports science team to work with the team. Since then the list of hurt players has not changed. Auro x2, Moor, Altidore, Osorio, Mavinga, Bradley, Ciman, DeLeon, Morrow have all been out hurt and those are just off the top of my head. Oh and don't foget Gallardo. It is not entirely Vanneys fault but to field a week line up at home when you are in a dog fight for a play off spot is not that smartest choice. Especially considering unless we shoot up the standings we will not have a home playoff game.
    I was one of the people who raised the fact that our injuries are muscular training injuries and this is a constant problem. Itís quite obvious, really.

    Last week I went to a training session with my son, who is a serious player. It is at a very advanced sports science facility. I asked the trainer why TFC has so many muscular injuries. He didnít really want to comment directly as he has advised TFC in the past, but in a very respectful way he basically said that they overtrain (like all the teams in MLS )- he said ďthey are very AmericanĒ - and implied that they donít use the latest sports science. I understood him to mean that a player like Michael Bradley will train well using their methods as he has infinite endurance but that others might not. He said that sometimes training differently - more focus on high intensity short workouts for example - is far more successful than an approach focused solely on endurance.

    He was very careful not to criticize TFC or its training staff directly, more comments about the league, but thatís what he meant.

    I think it goes back to Nelsen. We have to assume that Nelsen was aware of the most modern Premier League methods but we were told ďhe didnít train hard enoughĒ etc. It could be that there is something to the point about overtraining - and Nelsen knew it.

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    I'm not sure of the answer to this but if we are to discuss injury totals, what is the injury amount of other teams in this league?

    2017 we had few injuries. 2018 we had a lot. And Manning said they needed to fix that. I'm sure they got the numbers to compare things but we don't.

    Objectively, what is the usual injury amount within this league? Because without knowing that, we are only basing it on "well I feel we have a lot" - the unspoken part of that phrase is "compared to". Heck, I feel we have a lot compared to but is there anything out there actually describing what is going on there in this crazy league with all the travel & weather?

    The metric might be games lost to injury but where to find that is problematic for supporters. The MLS injury report is laughable https://www.mlssoccer.com/injuries.

    MLB puts people on Injury lists officially and those get tracked. https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/disabled...mulative-team/

    But, we got nothing so we are just eyeballing this like a carpenter without a measuring tape.


    All part of the frustrating opaqueness of this league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I was one of the people who raised the fact that our injuries are muscular training injuries and this is a constant problem. It’s quite obvious, really.

    Last week I went to a training session with my son, who is a serious player. It is at a very advanced sports science facility. I asked the trainer why TFC has so many muscular injuries. He didn’t really want to comment directly as he has advised TFC in the past, but in a very respectful way he basically said that they overtrain (like all the teams in MLS )- he said “they are very American” - and implied that they don’t use the latest sports science. I understood him to mean that a player like Michael Bradley will train well using their methods as he has infinite endurance but that others might not. He said that sometimes training differently - more focus on high intensity short workouts for example - is far more successful than an approach focused solely on endurance.

    He was very careful not to criticize TFC or its training staff directly, more comments about the league, but that’s what he meant.

    I think it goes back to Nelsen. We have to assume that Nelsen was aware of the most modern Premier League methods but we were told “he didn’t train hard enough” etc. It could be that there is something to the point about overtraining - and Nelsen knew it.
    Interesting anecdote. Thanks.

    We have been told that Nelsen at the time overtrained in the old English style & that's why we had so many injuries at the time. "We just need to get fit" was one of his stock phrases.

  7. #1477
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I'm not sure of the answer to this but if we are to discuss injury totals, what is the injury amount of other teams in this league?

    2017 we had few injuries. 2018 we had a lot. And Manning said they needed to fix that. I'm sure they got the numbers to compare things but we don't.

    Objectively, what is the usual injury amount within this league? Because without knowing that, we are only basing it on "well I feel we have a lot" - the unspoken part of that phrase is "compared to". Heck, I feel we have a lot compared to but is there anything out there actually describing what is going on there in this crazy league with all the travel & weather?

    The metric might be games lost to injury but where to find that is problematic for supporters. The MLS injury report is laughable https://www.mlssoccer.com/injuries.

    MLB puts people on Injury lists officially and those get tracked. https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/disabled...mulative-team/

    But, we got nothing so we are just eyeballing this like a carpenter without a measuring tape.


    All part of the frustrating opaqueness of this league.

    If we playing more games where we are missing more than 3 starters due to injury than not - that is too many injuries.
    If multiple starters are missing more than half a season because of injuries - that's too many injuries

  8. #1478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside16 View Post
    I agree with your statement regarding Vanney. He deserves the rest of the season and outside of Frasier as interim, there is no one that can jump into that role and succesfully save the season. Is Vanney the right man moving forward to next season, I have strong doubts but would like to be proven wrong. I purposely stayed off this board until now so that I can look at things more objectively after having to sit through that 90+ minutes of mediocrity on Saturday. I feel that Chapman, Zavaleta and possibly Ciman have played there last games this season and possibly as a Red. To be that shockingly bad cannot be tolerated without consequence.
    Chapman's replacement is already showing promise in Shafellburg
    Ciman is an easy release.
    Zavaleta - as much as I hate him and think he's shit - is a tougher replacement at this point - he's cheap and with a good defender beside him - he's got experience. But I'm not against letting him go if we have a cheap replacement with experience

  9. #1479
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Chapman's replacement is already showing promise in Shafellburg
    Ciman is an easy release.
    Zavaleta - as much as I hate him and think he's shit - is a tougher replacement at this point - he's cheap and with a good defender beside him - he's got experience. But I'm not against letting him go if we have a cheap replacement with experience

    i thought Zavaleta was making $300K? is so that's not cheap to me.

    As for Ciman at $435K we should be able to do much better imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    i thought Zavaleta was making $300K? is so that's not cheap to me.
    Oh damn - i thought he was still at 225K (2018 salary)...but if he's gone up to that, it's a bit $$ Not sure what we could get for that $ at backup CB

    **EDIT** just checked - he's $275. Again, not the most $$ player, but considering Deleon is on $165K - there could be better out there.



    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    As for Ciman at $435K we should be able to do much better imo
    ya we could do better - and not even at the CB position. I feel like he was just an answer to losing Cheyrou. More a leadership thing than a positional thing - I can't see why else we'd pick him up
    Last edited by jabbronies; 07-23-2019 at 10:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post

    The metric might be games lost to injury but where to find that is problematic for supporters. The MLS injury report is laughable https://www.mlssoccer.com/injuries.

    <snip>

    All part of the frustrating opaqueness of this league.
    In that vein, TFC had nobody listed as injured or questionable in the league preview for the Houston game: https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...dynamo/preview

    Subjectively, I also feel there's way less deep coverage of TFC than there was in the past. A number of journalists that used to cover TFC have been let go or re-assigned. Most of the rest work for Bogers. It seems like it would be obvious to ask about that mystical sports science company that Manning had promised, given ongoing injury concerns. But nobody in the media mentions it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Chapman's replacement is already showing promise in Shafellburg
    Ciman is an easy release.
    Zavaleta - as much as I hate him and think he's shit - is a tougher replacement at this point - he's cheap and with a good defender beside him - he's got experience. But I'm not against letting him go if we have a cheap replacement with experience
    Zavaleta isnít cheap.

    Sberg and Chapman donít play the same positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Zavaleta isn’t cheap.

    Sberg and Chapman don’t play the same positions.
    But it's a roster spot. Why keep Chapman and work around him and his position when you can work around Shaffelburg.

    And if you read the thread, you see that I was under the impression he was still on his last year 200K salary - which would've been cheap.
    This years 275K salary isn't expensive, but not cheap either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    But it's a roster spot. Why keep Chapman and work around him and his position when you can work around Shaffelburg.

    And if you read the thread, you see that I was under the impression he was still on his last year 200K salary - which would've been cheap.
    This years 275K salary isn't expensive, but not cheap either.
    Itís expensive for a bad backup defender in MLS. Chapman also fills a role weíd need to acquire another player for. Even through I donít think Chapman is very capable, heís domestic, local, and actually cheap. We donít have anyone else to play a creative midfield role other than Osorio who should be playing when fit given his contract increase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    It’s expensive for a bad backup defender in MLS. Chapman also fills a role we’d need to acquire another player for. Even through I don’t think Chapman is very capable, he’s domestic, local, and actually cheap. We don’t have anyone else to play a creative midfield role other than Osorio who should be playing when fit given his contract increase.
    I'm all for getting rid of Zavaleta - I just don't know what you'd expect to get back for that amount of money.

    As for Chapman - he's plateaued. He's not getting any better and he isn't that good. At this point, when the need arises - I'd rather shuffle the formation to make Shaffelburg work rather than put Chapman in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    I can see why Vanney would do what he did yesterday. I don't agree with it, but I understand why he did it. and TBH - I still wouldn't sack him:

    With regards to all 3 DP's sitting:
    - There have been many in TFC land who have said Michael Bradley can be easily replaced by Liam Fraiser. I'm hoping that argument has now been put to rest.
    - Jozy Altiodre is on Load management. That's the only way we can guarantee he stays fit for the August / September run and then playoffs. There is no argument against that.
    - Pozuelo is hurt - we all saw him get hacked. There's nothing anyone could do about that.

    With regards to Ciman and Zavaletta starting:
    - Moor is done and Mavinga probably hurt again or he is being Load managed like Altiorde.
    - Omar can't just walk in and take Ciman's place on the roster, even though everyone knows Omar should. There's seniority that has to play out, you still have to give Ciman a reason why his place is being taken away from him.
    - Ciman is showing time and time again that he isn't the player he was 2 years ago. He's done. This is just another example of why he'll need to be let go at the end of the year, no matter how "Fit" people will claim he is
    - Zavaleta - that's on Greg. Although with everything else being mentioned above, who do you start?
    I honestly cannot for a second see how or why everyone is so up in arms about the line up from the weekend....

    Q, Morrow, Gonzalez, Delgado, Bradley, Shaff, Poz, and Jozy all played on the 13th and 17.

    I can't comprehend how people expected them to play on Saturday as well in 45 degree heat...that's asking for a disaster to happen.
    Then the talk if one of them did get hurt would be "Vanney should've rested them, blah, blah, blah..."

    The only thing that was unfortunate was that he had to burn a home game to rest these players.
    But my immediate thought when I saw the line up was that he was paying attention to the big picture....

    We're in a playoff spot as of right now, our squad is getting healthier, NT games are done, and some reinforcements have arrived.
    We had to wait just about 5 months to see a complete squad (and are still not entirely there), but that has more to do with Curtis and Manning than it does Vanney.
    We will smash the second half of the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post
    I honestly cannot for a second see how or why everyone is so up in arms about the line up from the weekend....

    Q, Morrow, Gonzalez, Delgado, Bradley, Shaff, Poz, and Jozy all played on the 13th and 17.

    I can't comprehend how people expected them to play on Saturday as well in 45 degree heat...that's asking for a disaster to happen.
    Then the talk if one of them did get hurt would be "Vanney should've rested them, blah, blah, blah..."

    The only thing that was unfortunate was that he had to burn a home game to rest these players.
    But my immediate thought when I saw the line up was that he was paying attention to the big picture....

    We're in a playoff spot as of right now, our squad is getting healthier, NT games are done, and some reinforcements have arrived.
    We had to wait just about 5 months to see a complete squad (and are still not entirely there), but that has more to do with Curtis and Manning than it does Vanney.
    We will smash the second half of the year.
    We're not in a playoff spot as of now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Zavaleta isn’t cheap.

    Sberg and Chapman don’t play the same positions.
    Endoh is a better replacement than chapman, and maybe its the extra minutes in TFC2, but he has shown much more progress

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    We're not in a playoff spot as of now.
    oops ya i miscounted....anyways, the rest still holds imo...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post
    oops ya i miscounted....anyways, the rest still holds imo...
    I think it shows how tight things are. All home points are important, especially with formerly really crap teams like New England suddenly looking good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    I think it shows how tight things are. All home points are important, especially with formerly really crap teams like New England suddenly looking good.
    Definitely tight, but wins are wins.
    I don't see it as home points vs road points....I saw 2 wins out of 3 games in 8 days.

    2 out 3 ain't bad....Meatloaf tells no lies....

    I really think this team will show us something down the stretch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    I'm all for getting rid of Zavaleta - I just don't know what you'd expect to get back for that amount of money.

    As for Chapman - he's plateaued. He's not getting any better and he isn't that good. At this point, when the need arises - I'd rather shuffle the formation to make Shaffelburg work rather than put Chapman in.
    You can get an incompetent backup CB for MLS minimum so thereís virtually no point in keeping Zavaleta.

    We donít even have a backup winger. We have Sberg who is young, raw, and probably going to get seriously hurt at some point, and Gallardo who no one has seen play here. Thatís why Chapman has been playing in a role he isnít any good at. Putting Sberg in Chapmanís natural position would probably make him look inept and be a waste, especially since he needs to play if Vanney intends to play a 4-3-3.

    You need backup players, and Chapman is good for a few goals or assists when playing in the right spot usually. Even if he hasnít progressed, likely never will, etc.

    The FO would probably gladly ship him off (wouldnít bother me at all) and replace him with some cast-off USMNT player who wonít be useful either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    You can get an incompetent backup CB for MLS minimum so there’s virtually no point in keeping Zavaleta.
    Can't ditch contracts like that more then 1 per year & nobody is going to take him at that wage.

    Need proof?

    The guy who gave him that contract won't trade a bag of balls for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Can't ditch contracts like that more then 1 per year & nobody is going to take him at that wage.

    Need proof?

    The guy who gave him that contract won't trade a bag of balls for him.
    Yep, Iím well aware. It sucks that we could basically draw waiver straws each year and still not get rid of the dead weight at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    I'm all for getting rid of Zavaleta - I just don't know what you'd expect to get back for that amount of money.

    As for Chapman - he's plateaued. He's not getting any better and he isn't that good. At this point, when the need arises - I'd rather shuffle the formation to make Shaffelburg work rather than put Chapman in.
    chapman was on an upward path for the first part of the season, when used properly. Not fair to say he has plateaued. But he is behind Poz Oso and Delgado in the depth chart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    We're not in a playoff spot as of now.
    Game in hand over Montreal though

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    chapman was on an upward path for the first part of the season, when used properly. Not fair to say he has plateaued. But he is behind Poz Oso and Delgado in the depth chart.
    This is the whole problem with Chapmanís career. His position is one that almost always taken up by foreign talent and a key role on the team. Itís tough justify giving starter minutes to a domestic in that spot unless heís absolutely lights out.

    He really, really needs to work on his defence. If he did that he could easily slot into another Delgado type spot and use some of his abilities as a deep lying playmaker.

    Now that said, I do not think Vanney has helped his development. Heís getting more bland and less adventurous all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    This is the whole problem with Chapmanís career. His position is one that almost always taken up by foreign talent and a key role on the team. Itís tough justify giving starter minutes to a domestic in that spot unless heís absolutely lights out.

    He really, really needs to work on his defence. If he did that he could easily slot into another Delgado type spot and use some of his abilities as a deep lying playmaker.

    Now that said, I do not think Vanney has helped his development. Heís getting more bland and less adventurous all the time.
    This is very fair

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    This is very fair
    Iím obviously not the most ardent Chapman supporter, but I agree. Itís unfortunate, because heís clearly capable of contributing in a specific role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    This is the whole problem with Chapman’s career. His position is one that almost always taken up by foreign talent and a key role on the team. It’s tough justify giving starter minutes to a domestic in that spot unless he’s absolutely lights out.

    He really, really needs to work on his defence. If he did that he could easily slot into another Delgado type spot and use some of his abilities as a deep lying playmaker.

    Now that said, I do not think Vanney has helped his development. He’s getting more bland and less adventurous all the time.

    I'll never forget, a few years ago he just gave up chase on a loose ball. Flat out stopped running
    Albeit he was young, you only get so many opportunities to prove yourself

    He clearly has the skill, perhaps its a mental / attitude issue like Hamilton

 

 

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