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  1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    That is a pretty interesting stance. That wouldn't impress me much if I were Vanney.

    That stance is pretty atypical in pro sports for coaches (unheard of in North America). It hurts coaches in the room if the players don't know if the club is committed to him.
    I think it's just the press and the fans who are in the dark. The players *I think* would obviously be filled in on the situation as it relates to them.

    It is an odd strategy for sure. I'm not sure what is gained by withholding this information from the public during the season. I'm sure it makes sense to them. But it does date back to Bez's first real major decision here - Selling Doneil before the start of the 2014 season and not telling anyone outside the club about it until the season was over. It's continued every year since.

    I think Vanney, Bez and Manning are all very much on the same page in terms of how they do business. They're all very discrete, very composed. I can't imagine Vanney minding very much at all.

  2. #1082
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    Vanney has the room. Nobody questions that.

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    Have any of the reporters asked the question?

    Someone should get Molinaro and Larson to do some investigating.

    With the European season wrapping up imminently I think its important they lock up Vanney soon.

  4. #1084
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I don't know if you can call two stretches a trend. And last year the dip in form also coincided with Giovinco's injury. And we didn't have Vazquez.
    We did have Will Johnson though different kind of player but you can't say that single player will make all the difference.

    What we have is two stretches of bunched up games. followed or preceded by games with rest time in between. Both stretches of bunched up games say strong performances, and both rest periods saw poor performances.

    In the Playoffs we played the last regular season match on the 23rd our first playoff game on the 26 and then the 30th. All three were wins.

    We played again on the 6th, there was some pressure on us to score at least one and GIO was in great form.

    We didn't play again till the 30th got taken apart for much of the match by Montreal, Pressure on at home and we again came through. (Loved being there for that second leg)

    Then again 10 days stretch and we couldn't (though they were playing for the draw) score on Seattle.

    It is more than one stretch. There is a pattern. Victory's when we are reset with out without a healthy Gio are difficult.

    more so if Gio being in a slump or injured means we can't score.. that is an issue as well.

    It is a long season. We will know come once this stretch is done. If we continue to excel with a heavy schedule and then slump once there is a break it will be much harder to say that isn't the case. If we keep excelling even if we have a break then we can say it is just an anomaly.

    It is a question, and the stretches are long enough that it is hard to explain it away easily. When I am critical of Vanney and the coaching staff I like being wrong. I'm not making a judgement here just pointing out that this is a concern. If this is the case going forward the question of Why needs to be asked.

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    Cherry picked arguement.

    Lets just go back to the stretch at the beginning of last season.

    7 away games stretched out between March 6 and April 23

    3 wins
    2 losses
    2 ties

    Pretty good given all away games.

    Then...May - 6 games, all MLS, 5 at home

    1 win
    3 losses
    2 ties


    **********

    There is no pattern here related to coaching.

  6. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    That is a pretty interesting stance. That wouldn't impress me much if I were Vanney.

    That stance is pretty atypical in pro sports for coaches (unheard of in North America). It hurts coaches in the room if the players don't know if the club is committed to him.
    Or everyone knows it's a mere formality. Or he's already signed but they are not bothering telling us because they don't realize that we care. Or whatever.

    Anyways regardless of our narratives, Vanney has now won coach of the week honours two weeks in a row. As far as how he is viewed by others, he is considered one of the best in MLS. That's surprising to us, but there you go.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-16-2017 at 06:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Or everyone knows it's a mere formality. Or he's already signed but they are not bothering telling us because they don't realize that we care. Or whatever.

    Anyways regardless of our narratives, Vanney has now won coach of the week honours two weeks in a row. As far as how he is viewed by others, he is considered one of the best in MLS. That's surprising to us, but there you go.
    Who would think that?

    This is classic suit behavior. Manning's stance buys him wiggle room and time but is risky.

    I am not OK about the idea that Vanney may walk because Manning decided to personally change time-honoured practices around when managers get re-upped.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ...
    I am not OK about the idea that Vanney may walk because Manning decided to personally change time-honoured practices around when managers get re-upped.

    Does anybody know MLS practices vis-a-vis reupping managers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Cherry picked arguement.

    Lets just go back to the stretch at the beginning of last season.

    7 away games stretched out between March 6 and April 23

    3 wins
    2 losses
    2 ties

    Pretty good given all away games.

    Then...May - 6 games, all MLS, 5 at home

    1 win
    3 losses
    2 ties


    **********

    There is no pattern here related to coaching.
    not cherry picked at all looking at all games using the current system that is credited with the turn around. It is clear the system is preventing loses. What is not clear is if it is causing wins. Both good streaks occurred in congested schedule periods. While poorer results have occurred while the schedule has more time between matches. That is looking at EVERY game since the adoption of the 3-5-2. Just because you don't like the data dosent make it cherry picked.

    The pattern my indicate the club dosent win without Gio... But we can, it may indicate we are just streaky and those streaks just happened during congested periods. It could indicate some different mentally, or in preparation between the different periods. We need more data to draw a full conclusion, but to dismiss it because YOU don't like isn't an argument

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    not cherry picked at all looking at all games using the current system that is credited with the turn around. It is clear the system is preventing loses. What is not clear is if it is causing wins. Both good streaks occurred in congested schedule periods. While poorer results have occurred while the schedule has more time between matches. That is looking at EVERY game since the adoption of the 3-5-2. Just because you don't like the data dosent make it cherry picked.

    The pattern my indicate the club dosent win without Gio... But we can, it may indicate we are just streaky and those streaks just happened during congested periods. It could indicate some different mentally, or in preparation between the different periods. We need more data to draw a full conclusion, but to dismiss it because YOU don't like isn't an argument
    I agree we need more data. I do think one player can make a difference in how we weather time without Giovinco, especially in the key role that Vazquez plays. Losing Giovinco hurts us and that's why having Vazquez, who is showing himself to be one of the best setup men in the league, is important to our team. Vazquez vs. Will Johnson in terms of what they bring to our team is night and day. And Jozy Altidore still has the ability to just put the team on his shoulders like he did on Saturday (and in the playoffs many times). Our team is now about much more than just the Big 3, although without them we are not going to win anything.
    Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy

  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Does anybody know MLS practices vis-a-vis reupping managers?
    I think my view is well founded. It's the same in all sports.

    A quick web search " MLS coach contract extension" shows that all of the following were done in offseason. None in final season, or at end of contract, that I found.


    https://www.whitecapsfc.com/post/201...t-team-coaches

    http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/sport...-galaxy/story/

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/...ract-extension

    http://www.soccercooligans.com/mls-s...act-extension/

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...YfN/story.html

    If anyone finds more than one exception that shows different, I'll maybe adjust my view... I couldn't even find one

    Manning's comments above, which I didn't see at the time he said it, are really not what I want to see. All I can think of is those endless self-produced videos on TFC TV with everyone falling all over themselves to say how everything TFC does is first class.

    Even the Revs wouldn't do this.

    It's maybe OK to take that approach for Bez, but it's just the wrong way to handle the coach. It would piss me off.
    Last edited by ensco; 05-16-2017 at 06:12 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    I was a critic of Vanney's when he just seemed to be the latest in a long line of newbies who had never done anything. Which he was.

    But what he accomplished last year changed things.

    He should have been handsomely rewarded for that in the off season. How is this not obvious?

    The way Vanney is handling this, being dangled like some total non-entity caretaker, never saying a word.... the guy is total class.

    I am not looking for trouble, but I fear we are staring trouble in the face, and choosing not to see it.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    This is just my opinion, I think your over reacting. I don't think he thinks it's a negative thing he doesn't have an extension. Didn't Larson say earlier this month they were working on one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    not cherry picked at all looking at all games using the current system that is credited with the turn around. It is clear the system is preventing loses. What is not clear is if it is causing wins. Both good streaks occurred in congested schedule periods. While poorer results have occurred while the schedule has more time between matches. That is looking at EVERY game since the adoption of the 3-5-2. Just because you don't like the data dosent make it cherry picked.

    The pattern my indicate the club dosent win without Gio... But we can, it may indicate we are just streaky and those streaks just happened during congested periods. It could indicate some different mentally, or in preparation between the different periods. We need more data to draw a full conclusion, but to dismiss it because YOU don't like isn't an argument
    Good points and a fair comment about what I said. More data needed which is really only going to come from playing through a few seasons. Lots of variables, which you rightly point out.

    I just don't like data that is taken from one time when there is other data taken from other times that counter act that arguement. Personal peeve.

    June may (if we get past Ottawa) be 5 games. We'll see.
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 05-16-2017 at 07:04 PM.

  15. #1095
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    We didn't properly switch to the 3-5-2 until the playoffs. Only played it in a couple games before that and only did it due to a lot of players being out injured. I still have vivid nightmares of those games in september/october of last year when Osorio played the tip of the diamond. Seattle away is the only regular season game from last year that I can specifically remember us playing the 3-5-2 in.

  16. #1096
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC1154ever View Post
    This is just my opinion, I think your over reacting. I don't think he thinks it's a negative thing he doesn't have an extension. Didn't Larson say earlier this month they were working on one?
    TFC ptsd strikes again. The only way Vanney walks is if he wants to. They could be negotiating or he could already be re-signed for all we know. Look how long they take to announce player re-signings. Chill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I was a critic of Vanney's when he just seemed to be the latest in a long line of newbies who had never done anything. Which he was.

    But what he accomplished last year changed things.

    He should have been handsomely rewarded for that in the off season. How is this not obvious?

    The way Vanney is handling this, being dangled like some total non-entity caretaker, never saying a word.... the guy is total class.

    I am not looking for trouble, but I fear we are staring trouble in the face, and choosing not to see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TFC1154ever View Post
    This is just my opinion, I think your over reacting. I don't think he thinks it's a negative thing he doesn't have an extension. Didn't Larson say earlier this month they were working on one?
    I believe that MLSE actually tabled an offer in the off-season and Vanney wanted much higher wages due to reaching the cup final. If he isn't signed, it's probably because he feels he deserves more money for his extension, a lot more. TBH, he probably does. But MLSE has to look at this and think "well, we could probably hire Bob Bradley, at what point do we say it's not worthwhile to re-up Vanney?" It's a business decision as much as it's a sporting decision. However, neither side has pulled the plug so I think that they both think that they can come to an agreement.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-17-2017 at 08:37 AM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    They do seem to be putting Vanney out front a lot though. A 5 minute sit down thrown up on social media mid week and that whole thing about his 100th game. I'm not sure they would be putting out this much of him if they didn't think it was getting fan attention. I also don't think Bradley is coming back to MLS.

  19. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I believe that MLSE actually tabled an offer in the off-season and Vanney wanted much higher wages due to reaching the cup final. If he isn't signed, it's probably because he feels he deserves more money for his extension, a lot more. TBH, he probably does. But MLSE has to look at this and think "well, we could probably hire Bob Bradley, at what point do we say it's not worthwhile to re-up Vanney?" It's a business decision as much as it's a sporting decision. However, neither side has pulled the plug so I think that they both think that they can come to an agreement.
    At this point, I'd rather they give the money to Vanney. He's somewhat "home grown" and he has come into his own with us. I'd hate to see him walk and go on to major success elsewhere.
    Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy

  20. #1100
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    They do seem to be putting Vanney out front a lot though. A 5 minute sit down thrown up on social media mid week and that whole thing about his 100th game. I'm not sure they would be putting out this much of him if they didn't think it was getting fan attention. I also don't think Bradley is coming back to MLS.
    If he doesn't have a gig in Europe by the end of the summer he will be back in 2018.

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    So... halfway through the season... going into the summer window ...

    Any journalist care to ask Manning about whether the extension for Bez and Vanney are done?
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/featu...toronto-fc-mls

    solid piece from FFT. Missed this at the beginning of the season. Really good in depth look into the decades long relationship between Vanney and Fraser, the latter of whom doesn't get talked about enough as a key guy behind the scenes. He'll be coaching his own team in the very near future.

  23. #1103
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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/featu...toronto-fc-mls

    solid piece from FFT. Missed this at the beginning of the season. Really good in depth look into the decades long relationship between Vanney and Fraser, the latter of whom doesn't get talked about enough as a key guy behind the scenes. He'll be coaching his own team in the very near future.
    Good find.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

  24. #1104
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    So in the match-up between Vanney and Kreis in Orlando, there is no doubt Vanney schooled Kreis in his use of tactics and flexible formation. Kreis was left lamely blaming the officiating. I once thought that Kreis was the ideal MLS coach and perfect for TFC, no longer.

    Vanney was emulating Kreis' tactics early in his coaching, now he's exceeded that.

    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-06-2017 at 10:33 AM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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  26. #1106
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    Finally we can leave all the fearful speculation to rest.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Larson reporting that the contracts run till the end of the 2020 season

  28. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Larson reporting that the contracts run till the end of the 2020 season
    For a TFC coach, that's "long term"
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    There is something untrue in this story:

    Toronto FC captured back-to-back Canadian Championships (2016, 2017), giving the club six Voyageurs Cups, the most of any Canadian franchise.
    Toronto has won the Canadian Championship the most times. Montreal holds 9 Voyageurs Cups, having won it many times through USL standings when that was the procedure for winning.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    For a TFC coach, that's "long term"
    If he makes it to the end of the contract, it will be six years in charge.

    Some change from the halcyon #VanneyOut days

 

 

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