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  1. #1291
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    This could also go in the transfers thread, or in the Manning or Curtis threads, but:

    In the Steve Buffery article from yesterday, Vanney mentions again that they need some wide speedy players, and that they've needed them for a while. Unfortunate that FO couldn't get that figured out over multiple transfer windows.

    HOWEVER, Vanney also admits that Akinola has played that wide role for the US youth teams, yet he sees him more as a forward.

    Well... Notwithstanding that I think Manning / Bez / Curtis should have done better over the time they had...

    Maybe it's time for Vanney to come down from his ivory tower, realize that Akinola might be an improvement on the wing over other players he's plugged in there; or better than not having any width at all (which is how they sometimes play). Why not give it a try for a couple games? Now Akinola is injured, but perhaps soon?

    https://torontosun.com/sports/soccer...win-more-games

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Vanney also admits that Akinola has played that wide role for the US youth teams, yet he sees him more as a forward.

    Well... Notwithstanding that I think Manning / Bez / Curtis should have done better over the time they had...

    Maybe it's time for Vanney to come down from his ivory tower, realize that Akinola might be an improvement on the wing over other players he's plugged in there; or better than not having any width at all (which is how they sometimes play). Why not give it a try for a couple games? Now Akinola is injured, but perhaps soon?

    https://torontosun.com/sports/soccer...win-more-games
    I wondered about this myself because Akinola looked good for the U20's at this position. Sure, maybe see him as the poaching forward too but right now while we're hurting why wouldn't we use an available (pre-injury) piece with experience in that position?

  3. #1293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I wondered about this myself because Akinola looked good for the U20's at this position. Sure, maybe see him as the poaching forward too but right now while we're hurting why wouldn't we use an available (pre-injury) piece with experience in that position?
    So we're currently at two wins in our last twelve games. I suspect he will not be here after the All-Star break unless we see something dramatic in the next few weeks.

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    The playoffs & Voyageurs is what Vanney is being judged by & even then unless we crap out in the first round we play in the Voyageurs', Vanney is not getting fired over that.

    He's here until we don't make the playoffs.


    (twitter TFC is not running this team)

  5. #1295
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    So we're currently at two wins in our last twelve games. I suspect he will not be here after the All-Star break unless we see something dramatic in the next few weeks.
    Akinola or Vanney?

    I don't see anything happening to Vanney until after he's been given the players that he was supposed to get earlier this year.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Akinola or Vanney?

    I don't see anything happening to Vanney until after he's been given the players that he was supposed to get earlier this year.
    With Berhalter floundering in the USMNT spot I can see Vanney headed there if we don’t make the playoffs this season.

  7. #1297
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    USMNT Twittter isn't in charge either

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    With Berhalter floundering in the USMNT spot I can see Vanney headed there if we don’t make the playoffs this season.
    I don't see Berhalter being moved out soon. Usually they give their NT coaches more time to hang themselves. Look how long Klinsmann stuck around.

    You do have a point about Vanney being in line for coaching their national team. A lot of people here (and even more on Twitter) seem to think the team won the treble despite Vanney. He has a very different reputation in the US as a highly respected coach. It's his most likely move after TFC, and I think he'd do really well not being hampered by salary budgets or a GM who may or may not be on side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    With Berhalter floundering in the USMNT spot I can see Vanney headed there if we don’t make the playoffs this season.
    Maybe as an assistant or as a coach of a youth team.

    For the top spot? I question how a guy who basically only plays football in a distinctly stylistic bent fits with a team that will inevitably have to play against stronger opposition.

    But then again maybe that’s US soccer in a nutshell right now. Rather celebrate how far they’ve come over the years and acknowledge how much further there is to go to get to the top, there seems to be this belief that they’ve arrived and should be able to punch weight with the top teams right away. So rather than a pragmatist it will be someone who “gets the most out of the players” and is aspirational.

    I hope they do it. Get the popcorn ready.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I don't see Berhalter being moved out soon. Usually they give their NT coaches more time to hang themselves. Look how long Klinsmann stuck around.

    You do have a point about Vanney being in line for coaching their national team. A lot of people here (and even more on Twitter) seem to think the team won the treble despite Vanney. He has a very different reputation in the US as a highly respected coach. It's his most likely move after TFC, and I think he'd do really well not being hampered by salary budgets or a GM who may or may not be on side.
    I don’t think they’ll move Berhalter right away, but if he has a very poor Gold Cup I wouldn’t count on his job being incredibly secure.

    I also don’t see a new GM wanting to keep Vanney around after another poor season, with or without resources. TFC hasn’t been on the management rollercoaster for a while and it’s pretty much the universal move for football clubs when the results aren’t what they’re looking for.

    As much as I’m not #vanneyout, I don’t really see why the FO would want to keep him if he can’t turn the team around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    As much as I’m not #vanneyout, I don’t really see why the FO would want to keep him if he can’t turn the team around.
    It really depends on their intentions. There's no question Curtis will have his own guy to bring in waiting in the wings, but he may be happy enough with Vanney if they can work together to make a winning team (or he could be quietly undermining Vanney while pretending to support him like Mariner did with Winter).

    The key question is will Vanney be given the players he needs to play his system (like he had in 2017)? Or will he flounder because they decide he has to work with what he has? Even the next CBA may play into the picture.

    My feeling is that Manning is targeting 2020 with this year having turned into a partial rebuild. If he loses confidence that Vanney can turn it around next year then Vanney will be out. The decision will be Manning's, not Curtis's.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-10-2019 at 12:09 PM.

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    About the waiting in the wings thing - I still think that is Robin Fraser - he was supposed to be going to Colorado a week ago & that seems to have been tamped down. I would not be surprised if he is Curtis' man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    About the waiting in the wings thing - I still think that is Robin Fraser - he was supposed to be going to Colorado a week ago & that seems to have been tamped down. I would not be surprised if he is Curtis' man.
    You may be right, he has a very good reputation.

    A lot of people who want #VanneyOut would not be happy with that. Canadians or Americans don't make the cut. They want a foreign coach, preferably a "big name."
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    A lot of people who want #VanneyOut would not be happy with that. Canadians or Americans don't make the cut. They want a foreign coach, preferably a "big name."
    Some people really do need to look at what happens in most countries instead of relying upon what they see on TV each week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    You may be right, he has a very good reputation.

    A lot of people who want #VanneyOut would not be happy with that. Canadians or Americans don't make the cut. They want a foreign coach, preferably a "big name."
    I wouldn't be happy with it but not for those reasons. If you're changing what we're doing then a new voice is needed. Fraser is more of a continuation.

    As for wanting a foreign manager; pass. Seen enough of them fall flat to know they're not all Tatas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I wouldn't be happy with it but not for those reasons. If you're changing what we're doing then a new voice is needed. Fraser is more of a continuation.

    ...
    I'm not sure the brain trust sees Vanney's approach as wrong. IF we don't make the playoffs, Vanney would be gone but I'm not certain they would see this was necessary due to policy as much as personality.

    I also believe the brain trust think us missing the playoffs is unlikely IF they bring in the players they know the team needs - which is why talk of Vanny out right now is twitter echospeak.


    I also think a lot of people are underrating how well the team played on Friday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I'm not sure the brain trust sees Vanney's approach as wrong. IF we don't make the playoffs, Vanney would be gone but I'm not certain they would see this was necessary due to policy as much as personality.

    I also believe the brain trust think us missing the playoffs is unlikely IF they bring in the players they know the team needs - which is why talk of Vanny out right now is twitter echospeak.


    I also think a lot of people are underrating how well the team played on Friday.
    I don't think the approach is wrong or anything like that. I just think some of the players have tuned him out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Some people really do need to look at what happens in most countries instead of relying upon what they see on TV each week.
    What you think usually happens when a team in another league around the world puts up a record we have over the past ten games?

    I can think of a lot of places where Vanney would be out of a job. So we’re more patient here (and I can appreciate that) but to tar-and-feather anyone who is even questioning his job security? Silly, and not exactly in-line with the what you’re claiming happens in most countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    About the waiting in the wings thing - I still think that is Robin Fraser - he was supposed to be going to Colorado a week ago & that seems to have been tamped down. I would not be surprised if he is Curtis' man.
    I don't see Fraser as the guy. He's Vanney right hand man and is as a part of this dumpster fire as Vanney imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    What you think usually happens when a team in another league around the world puts up a record we have over the past ten games?

    I can think of a lot of places where Vanney would be out of a job. So we’re more patient here (and I can appreciate that) but to tar-and-feather anyone who is even questioning his job security? Silly, and not exactly in-line with the what you’re claiming happens in most countries.

    Most countries are not EPL, Serie A or Bundesliga or La Liga. As I said, look at most countries beyond what people see on TV.

    And I'm hardly tar & feathering. I'm making a point. A lot of the reddit/twitter discussion is based on what they see in Europe.
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 06-10-2019 at 10:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Most countries are not EPL, Serie A or Bundesliga or La Liga. As I said, look at most countries beyond what peopleu see on TV.

    And I'm hardly tar & feathering. I'm making a point. A lot of the reddit/twitter discussion is based on what they see in Europe.
    I think you're sadly mistaken if you see the leagues you've named as the height of impatience in world football. There are plenty of other examples around as well.

    But, again, to fire your coach after 10 games of poor performance and coming off a disappointing season isn't exactly shocking in any league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinUtd View Post
    Still not sold on him but things are looking better. I still shudder at what this team would look like without Giovinco, he's without a doubt carrying us and making Vanney look good in the process.

    Sorry to be a downer, but that's my perspective.
    Interesting to read this stuff again. Relates to the now. Will forward the reply to this as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Being the best defensive team in MLS has little to do with Giovinco, and a lot to do with personnel and coaching.

    Without Giovinco there would probably be more 0-0 draws.
    Apparently they are 2-1 losses....

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The interview on Saturday seemed to indicate that the diamond / 2-3-2-1-2 that was played against Montreal is the preferred offensive oriented route for this team. Lets see how we do against teams that can clog up the middle and have fast width - i.e. Portland and Dallas.
    Interesting to go back about formation...

  25. #1315
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I'm not sure the brain trust sees Vanney's approach as wrong. IF we don't make the playoffs, Vanney would be gone but I'm not certain they would see this was necessary due to policy as much as personality.
    I'm not sure that Vanney would be gone if TFC missed the playoffs this year. We're used to previous regimes that wanted instant winning. We saw how that made TFC/Raptors/Leafs perpetual losers.

    One thing that Tim L did was to bring in management for each team that thought much longer term than the season that passed. This strategy has been validated with TFC's treble and the Raptors run (and maybe soon championship).

    Manning is an perfect example of a long term thinker. He'll evaluate Vanney based on whether he thinks he can succeed with their long-term vision. I think Vanney will fail if the strategy is "adapt to the players," because he's not flexible enough. I think he may well succeed again if the strategy is "get Vanney whatever he needs."

    A note about fans, I think Vanney's personality is one that rubs Canadian fans the wrong way. We love emotional positive leaders (think how much TFC fans loved John Carver) and distrust cerebral unemotional types (this applies in politics as well). You can tell when he talks that Vanney is very intelligent and a keen student of the game, but he's not the warm guy that fans will warm up to.

    For players though the personality needs are different. They need to feel led, but listened to. Be challenged but also respected. A great coach in that regard is a very nuanced thing and doesn't depend on whether you are chummy to everyone. It's difficult for us to know if Vanney does well at that or not. Sometimes players tune out their coaches. Sometimes they lose their heads in the heat of the moment. Lack of executing the coach's vision could be due to many factors.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-11-2019 at 07:51 AM.

  26. #1316
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    I don't know why Vanney wanted to move away from the 3-5-2
    When we were dominate in our Cup runs, it was on the back of that formation. We reverted to the diamond when teams hung back on us.

    So as I write this, I'm coming to the realization of why he wants to go 4-3-3. If every teams sits back on us, we never play the 3-5-2....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    I don't know why Vanney wanted to move away from the 3-5-2
    When we were dominate in our Cup runs, it was on the back of that formation. We reverted to the diamond when teams hung back on us.

    So as I write this, I'm coming to the realization of why he wants to go 4-3-3. If every teams sits back on us, we never play the 3-5-2....
    It makes sense to evolve with the league and what other teams are doing now but I am surprised we don't switch formations in match or try to surprise other teams with our tactics/set up anymore. Now it's just the same always even if it isn't working and/or we don't have the personnel to pull it off. Vanney isn't stupid so I am assuming he is treating the first half of the season like an extended training camp to get all the players, including the younger guys, drilled into this particular style and then when reinforcements (hopefully) show up in July we can do a good run out to the end of the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    It makes sense to evolve with the league and what other teams are doing now but I am surprised we don't switch formations in match or try to surprise other teams with our tactics/set up anymore. Now it's just the same always even if it isn't working and/or we don't have the personnel to pull it off. Vanney isn't stupid so I am assuming he is treating the first half of the season like an extended training camp to get all the players, including the younger guys, drilled into this particular style and then when reinforcements (hopefully) show up in July we can do a good run out to the end of the season.

    ya the Gold Cup break hopefully provides enough of gap to treat the second half of the season as a new start. The first half was a bit of a disaster. Injuries and lack of talent caused that. I just hope we get players back at 100% otherwise we will just be continuing where we left off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    You may be right, he has a very good reputation.

    A lot of people who want #VanneyOut would not be happy with that. Canadians or Americans don't make the cut. They want a foreign coach, preferably a "big name."
    I’m not seeing people calling routinely for a foreign coach. Who’s saying that?!? That’s an ancient refrain and a bit if a straw man, I think. People are calling him out for tactical inflexibility and his player selection.

    Ignoring that someone’s pedigree or extraction influences their choices is to ignore part of who they are and why they do what they do. At the same time it is rarely a disqualifying factor as I think
    most reasonable people realize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I’m not seeing people calling routinely for a foreign coach. Who’s saying that?!? That’s an ancient refrain and a bit if a straw man, I think. People are calling him out for tactical inflexibility and his player selection.
    Don't you remember? It was huge on this very board when Vanney was named coach, and for months afterwards. It will come up again whenever he leaves.

    The discussion right now is on whether Vanney should be fired, so people are discussing player selection and tactics.

    I'm not saying anyone is saying right now "fire him because he's American," but it formed a big part in why some people rejected his hire, and winning the MLS Cup did not bring those who think we deserve a Mourinho or a Wenger or a Pep around because they (correctly) feel that MLSE has the cash to hire someone like those big names.

 

 

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