New Vanney evaluation thread

[KurtLarSUN]

Can you guys stop with the idiotic and infantile "haters" thing? This is not how this works. You are making this up.

This is a team that was underperforming for Vanney's first year and a half given payroll. They are going to lose a game or two they should have won, yet. Neither of those things are the point.

What I wanted, what I think any thinking fan wants, is to see the team improving, gelling, and going into another playoff team's stadium, for an important game late in the season, and dispatching that team like they were a buzzing fly. Which I don't think I ever saw a TFC team ever do until Saturday.

I mean, I guess I am glad for Vanney, but getting emotionally involved with the coach or management is not the point, and Manning will fire him the second he thinks it makes sense, win streak or not.

Vanney is a suit. If he performs, he maybe gets to keep his job, same as the rest of us. Or Vanney may just leave in any scenario - Manning really hung him out to dry with that "8 game" thing, Vanney may just leave if he has options.

"Given payroll" is a naive way of looking at an MLS roster.
The league's rules are competitively neutral. The salary cap ensures that.
As we saw last year, it doesn't matter if you have a pair of strikers making $13 million combined if the roster isn't balanced.
Now then, it would have been fairly harsh to blame Vanney for a lack of roster balance in his first full season. But, people did, of course.
What we're seeing now is what happens when you're patient with a manager and you actually give him time to build out a vision.
Part of the problem with Vanney naysayers is they completely ignore all of the little, critical decisions Vanney has gotten right.
There has been plenty to be critical of, but it's usually not done in a balanced way.
I read this board daily. There's an undoubted bias against Vanney here.
The fact it took a six-game unbeaten run for you to finally soften your stance speaks volumes.
If you want to go over the mistakes Vanney has made, we can.
But the list of positives since the start of last year would be far, far greater.
I'm sure there's still someone somewhere mumbling about the Hagglund substitute in San Jose...

[TFC Tifoso]

Can you guys stop with the idiotic and infantile "haters" thing? This is not how this works. You are making this up.

This is a team that was underperforming for Vanney's first year and a half given payroll. They are going to lose a game or two they should have won, yet. Neither of those things are the point.

What I wanted, what I think any thinking fan wants, is to see the team improving, gelling, and going into another playoff team's stadium, for an important game late in the season, and dispatching that team like they were a buzzing fly. Which I don't think I ever saw a TFC team ever do until Saturday.

I mean, I guess I am glad for Vanney, but getting emotionally involved with the coach or management is not the point, and Manning will fire him the second he thinks it makes sense, win streak or not.

Vanney is a suit. If he performs, he maybe gets to keep his job, same as the rest of us.

Ok fair enough....it was probably a bit juvenile.....

But while I agree with the second half of your post, I don't think that Vanney underperformed at the beginning.
For me, unless you have unlimited funds, it takes at least a year to turn over a roster in MLS, and what we seen at the start was not Vanney's team imo; we made the playoffs last year basically on the skill of out top players.

I have no attachment to Vanney as a person, you're right, he's a suit, and it could very well be easy come, easy go if all goes south.
But what I seen from the beginning was something I hadn't seen from any previous coach: someone who is tactical, cerebral, and most importantly, knows the league.
And for some to suggest that we blow it up AGAIN at a time where we were missing some of out best players, players that Vanney most likely vouched for and brought on to fit his image of the team, is a suggestion that lacks any sense of logic.

Vanney is certainly not perfect, but again, to me he showed qualities from the beginning that we hadn't seen from an previous coach, qualities which are essential to being successful.
On to of that, it seems like the dressing room is finally in order after years of it being a mess, and I usually credit the coach for morale. The players certainly speak highly of him.

[ensco]

"Given payroll" is a naive way of looking at an MLS roster.
The league's rules are competitively neutral. The salary cap ensures that.
As we saw last year, it doesn't matter if you have a pair of strikers making $13 million combined if the roster isn't balanced.
Now then, it would have been fairly harsh to blame Vanney for a lack of roster balance in his first full season. But, people did, of course.
What we're seeing now is what happens when you're patient with a manager and you actually give him time to build out a vision.
Part of the problem with Vanney naysayers is they completely ignore all of the little, critical decisions Vanney has gotten right.
There has been plenty to be critical of, but it's usually not done in a balanced way.
I read this board daily. There's an undoubted bias against Vanney here.
The fact it took a six-game unbeaten run for you to finally soften your stance speaks volumes.
If you want to go over the mistakes Vanney has made, we can.
But the list of positives since the start of last year would be far, far greater.
I'm sure there's still someone somewhere mumbling about the Hagglund substitute in San Jose...

I'll be happy to have a go at this supposed "bias" question.

Vanney got the job without much (any?) relevant experience. That's not his fault, but that doesn't matter either. If I started with my arms folded because he was the untested personal choice of a 32 year old 4 years removed from making photocopies in a law firm, it's for good reason, and not because I am biased.

The team underperformed for most of Vanney's tenure. You think that's bias, I think that's obvious.

"Given payroll" is just another way of saying that a high percentage of the good things that have happened here under Vanney relate directly to the brilliance of Sebastian Giovinco. The team could have had you, me or my washing machine as manager for the large majority of its victories in 2015-2016.

I didn't "soften my stance", it never changed. The streak is fabulous, but is irrelevant to this question. We will all evaluate the totality of the thing at year end. I still don't think Vanney's been that great, and I bet Manning doesn't rate him either, and I further bet that Bez/Vanney are pretty much gone already. That is total speculation on my part, more a comment on the MO of guys like Manning. They always bring in their own guys. The team winning because Altidore is coming around, that just makes the case that it's the DPs/payroll, and not the coach, that is driving performance. (Plus I suspect Manning has a mandate to cut payroll, but that is for another day.)

Having said that, I thought the 8 game thing was crazy, and I also emphatically said we should stick with Vanney when others wanted his head earlier in the year.

I want progress, which we are now getting. Especially as it relates to non DPs (eg Delgado, Osorio). We still have to see if we get backsliding.

All these "little things" you speak of ... you need to elaborate. I don't see that.

I agree with your point on giving him (or anyone) time, I made the same point earlier re gelling.

[ensco]

But while I agree with the second half of your post, I don't think that Vanney underperformed at the beginning.
......

On to of that, it seems like the dressing room is finally in order after years of it being a mess, and I usually credit the coach for morale. The players certainly speak highly of him.

I thought the team should have been better in the second half of 2015. We limped into an expanded playoffs, and got smacked.

You are right about morale. Team has been drama free. Vanney deserves marks for that, as do Bez and Manning. It's usually guys going over their bosses that creates problems.

[ManUtd4ever]

At full strength, this team should be able to dominate against the majority of clubs in the league, and they have started showing signs of being able to do that on a relatively consistent basis. As others have indicated, I will reserve judgment on Vanney until the playoffs, but I do think he deserves credit for managing a severely depleted roster to a respectable record for several weeks to keep us within striking distance of 1st place in the East and home field advantage in the post season.

[Yohan]

At full strength, this team should be able to dominate against the majority of clubs in the league, and they have started showing signs of being able to do that on a relatively consistent basis. As others have indicated, I will reserve judgment on Vanney until the playoffs, but I do think he deserves credit for managing a severely depleted roster to a respectable record for several weeks to keep us within striking distance of 1st place in the East and home field advantage in the post season.

For the first team in TFC history, in a 4-4-2 diamond formation, now with addition of Cooper if he plays as AM, I think TFC is at least 2 deep in most positions.
The injury crisis is a bit of blessing in disguise as we found out that our kids and depth can fill in without being terrible, and I'm comfortable with slotting in our depth players for an injury or for squad rotation.

We never had so much depth in the roster before. Yes, TFC relies on Giovinco heavily (but what team wouldn't with Giovinco) but I don't expect a loss whenever TFC plays even without Giovinco.

[OgtheDim]

Oh I fully expect a calamity every time.
3-1 on Saturday and I didn't start to breathe until the last minute of extra time.....just too many memories.

BUT, with this team, I also fully expect them all to try hard, something I didn't see all that much before Bradley was around, and I fully enjoy that attack.

I think it will take me longer to learn to love that defence.

[TFC Tifoso]

I thought the team should have been better in the second half of 2015. We limped into an expanded playoffs, and got smacked.

You are right about morale. Team has been drama free. Vanney deserves marks for that, as do Bez and Manning. It's usually guys going over their bosses that creates problems.

Ok, its a matter of opinion and we're all entitled to it.

My expectation for last year was to simply make the playoffs and break that barrier. I can understand that others' were greater, but that was just a personal expectation.
Hopefully the disappointment v Montreal will give the necessary motivation to do better this year if/when they make it again. I would expect them to add on what they did last year.....especially if the first game is at home.

Team morale is something that is very important to me.
You don't have to have all "nice guys" on the roster, but its like any other job.....if you don't like the environment you're in, you won't want to go to work, so that is something I really give the staff credit for.

[KurtLarSUN]

I'll be happy to have a go at this supposed "bias" question.

Vanney got the job without much (any?) relevant experience. That's not his fault, but that doesn't matter either. If I started with my arms folded because he was the untested personal choice of a 32 year old 4 years removed from making photocopies in a law firm, it's for good reason, and not because I am biased.

The team underperformed for most of Vanney's tenure. You think that's bias, I think that's obvious.

"Given payroll" is just another way of saying that a high percentage of the good things that have happened here under Vanney relate directly to the brilliance of Sebastian Giovinco. The team could have had you, me or my washing machine as manager for the large majority of its victories in 2015-2016.

I didn't "soften my stance", it never changed. The streak is fabulous, but is irrelevant to this question. We will all evaluate the totality of the thing at year end. I still don't think Vanney's been that great, and I bet Manning doesn't rate him either, and I further bet that Bez/Vanney are pretty much gone already. That is total speculation on my part, more a comment on the MO of guys like Manning. They always bring in their own guys. The team winning because Altidore is coming around, that just makes the case that it's the DPs/payroll, and not the coach, that is driving performance. (Plus I suspect Manning has a mandate to cut payroll, but that is for another day.)

Having said that, I thought the 8 game thing was crazy, and I also emphatically said we should stick with Vanney when others wanted his head earlier in the year.

I want progress, which we are now getting. Especially as it relates to non DPs (eg Delgado, Osorio). We still have to see if we get backsliding.

All these "little things" you speak of ... you need to elaborate. I don't see that.

I agree with your point on giving him (or anyone) time, I made the same point earlier re gelling.

This still isn't a rational response.

1) You basically concede that you had a preconceived notion (a bias) due to Vanney's supposed lack of experience. Is there evidence that experienced managers fare better than supposed non-experienced managers in MLS? No, there isn't. Porter, Berhalter, Vieira, Mastroeni etc. all have had pretty immediate success in their first head coaching roles.
2) The team underperformed? According to who or what? He took over an average-to-bad team. They remained average until this season (his second full season).
3) Your third point is another fallacy. The good this season isn't because of Giovinco. It's because of TFC's improved defence and defensive structure. Without TFC's improved defence (which Vanney receives some credit for), they might be on the outside of the playoff picture. Building a defence takes more than one season.
4) Your fourth point might be the strangest of all. "With no proof or reasoning, I think Vanny/Bez are gone.." What! Why!?
5) Lastly, you say you want progress, but don't appear at all interested in allowing time for said progress to take shape. Management, GMs, coaches should be judged on 3-5 years.


Little things:
*Signing Delgado (who nobody had even heard of).
*Trading nothing for Zavaleta (the team's starting CB).
*Transitioning Bradley to play as a DM, therefore providing more defensive clarity.
*Very underrated is how well TFC has defended in the diamond, which traditionally is difficult to do due to lack of width.

I can go on...
I can also name plenty of mistakes ...

[KurtLarSUN]

I thought the team should have been better in the second half of 2015. We limped into an expanded playoffs, and got smacked.

You are right about morale. Team has been drama free. Vanney deserves marks for that, as do Bez and Manning. It's usually guys going over their bosses that creates problems.

Also a fallacy...

TFC didn't limp into the playoffs, they were a win away from finishing above Montreal and hosting a playoff game. They were four points from a first-round bye.

The margins in this league are so small. So overreactions are usually, well, overreactions.

[TFC Tifoso]

I find it very odd when people say "TFC is only winning now because, Giovinco, Altidore, etc." are playing well.....

Fact of the matter is when your top players underperform/are injured, 9/10 times it has a negative effect on the overall team performance.
Sure you could cherry pick a season here or there in any sport when the 1/10 happened, but you will always need to rely on your top players to carry the team.

To me the harder part (and this is imo where coaching comes in), is to control the egos and keep the team united.

And add to that, this year we have had lesser players step up to help TFC through the early part of the summer, and to me a lot of that falls on Vanney alone....he is the guy who is with them day in and day out.
Looking at the players TFC have had to do without (and Seba not scoring for 8! games), there was the potential for a complete disaster.
How the manager gets hardly any credit for guiding them through that, and kept them in a position to now be a point out of 1st, kinda baffles me......

[ensco]

Kurt, most of my "fallacies" (ex the one about Vanney/Bez already being gone) are pretty widely held opinions, which facts won't prove or disprove. I think calling them fallacies or bias is wrong.

I will spare you (and me!) the back and forth. I gave my reasoning on all ex the 2015 performance, won't repeat myself.

I suspect you'll be taking all this up with Manning in due course.

[KurtLarSUN]

Kurt, most of my "fallacies" (ex the one about Vanney/Bez already being gone) are pretty widely held opinions, which facts won't prove or disprove. I think calling them fallacies or bias is wrong.

I will spare you (and me!) the back and forth. I gave my reasoning on all ex the 2015 performance, won't repeat myself.

I suspect you'll be taking all this up with Manning in due course.

Widely held beliefs can still be wrong.

And the fact of the matter is TFC's management group got Toronto FC to the playoffs last year.

This year, they're almost certain to at least host a playoff game.

So, objectively speaking, from the end of 2014 to now, Toronto FC has:

1) Signed the best player in the league.
2) Made the playoffs for the first time (and come within a fraction of finishing top three in the East).
3) And, now, are very likely to host a playoff game and finish with their best record all-time amid having the best defence in the East.

You had stated you were just looking for improvement and hadn't seen any.

If that's not improvement from the end of 2014 (when the team was a dumpster fire) then I don't know what is.

I don't think the above analysis is subjective. I think those three points are basically objective facts.

After two years, the team is now fully Vanney's. And it's a pretty good team.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney got the job without much (any?) relevant experience. That's not his fault, but that doesn't matter either.

To your credit ensco, you are consistent, and you don't disappear when the team does well.

I think there was some "transference" with many from Ryan Nelsen, who truly had zero experience.

Let's compare Greg Vanney's experience when he started first team management vs. Frank Yallop's vs. Bruce Arena's:

Greg Vanney
Director Soccer Operations Grande Sports World (2 years)
RSL Academy Director (3 years)
Chivas USA Assistant Coach (1 year)
TFC Academy Directory (1 year)

Frank Yallop
Generation Addidas (Project 40) Youth coach (1 year)
Tampa Bay Mutiny Assistant coach (1 year)
DC United Assistant coach (1 year)

Bruce Arena
University lacrosse coach (1 year)
University part-time lacrosse coach, part time soccer coach (7 years)
University soccer coach (18 years)

Frank Yallop had considerably less experience than Greg Vanney. Bruce Arena had lots of years, but he only had experience at an NCAA level (quite a few steps below MLS, or even USL) -- by your definition that could hardly be called "relevant" experience.

Most other MLS coaches (I think an exception would be Sigi Schmidt) have even less experience when they start first team coaching.

I think I see a double-standard where Vanney has supposedly no "relevant" experience which isn't true.

[KurtLarSUN]

To your credit ensco, you are consistent, and you don't disappear when the team does well.

I think there was some "transference" with many from Ryan Nelsen, who truly had zero experience.

Let's compare Greg Vanney's experience when he started first team management vs. Frank Yallop's vs. Bruce Arena's:

Greg Vanney
Director Soccer Operations Grande Sports World (2 years)
RSL Academy Director (3 years)
Chivas USA Assistant Coach (1 year)
TFC Academy Directory (1 year)

Frank Yallop
Generation Addidas (Project 40) Youth coach (1 year)
Tampa Bay Mutiny Assistant coach (1 year)
DC United Assistant coach (1 year)

Bruce Arena
University lacrosse coach (1 year)
University part-time lacrosse coach, part time soccer coach (7 years)
University soccer coach (18 years)

Frank Yallop had considerably less experience than Greg Vanney. Bruce Arena had lots of years, but he only had experience at an NCAA level (quite a few steps below MLS, or even USL) -- by your definition that could hardly be called "relevant" experience.

Most other MLS coaches (I think an exception would be Sigi Schmidt) have even less experience when they start first team coaching.

I think I see a double-standard where Vanney has supposedly no "relevant" experience which isn't true.

Can I just add that playing experience is relevant experience...

[Ivy]

I'm still amazed we are where we are in the standings, and Canadian champs, considering Seba was impotent for 1/3 of the season, Jozy was out for half, and Bradley as well. Playing the reserve goalie probably cost us a few points, but I couldn't be happier about his performance.

[mistercorporate]

Vanney is also a certified FIFA coach, he is certified through the same school French League1 coaches train.

[Super]

Vanney has proven his worth in the old fashioned way: with results. I say we re-up his contract at the end of this season.

[ronzilla]

Dear lord..

[Red4ever]

This thread is sooooo tired.

[ensco]

So, objectively speaking, from the end of 2014 to now, Toronto FC has:

1) Signed the best player in the league.
2) Made the playoffs for the first time (and come within a fraction of finishing top three in the East).
3) And, now, are very likely to host a playoff game and finish with their best record all-time amid having the best defence in the East.

Point one has nothing to do with Vanney (or Bez). Point two is tough - equally easy to point out that the team really wasn't great.

I'd argue this isn't how Manning is going to evaluate Vanney, in fact, I don't think he's going to evaluate Vanney at all.

He'll evaluate Bez, and the question he'll be asking himself is: given that Bez started with a dumpster fire and $100M spent on three new stud players, how did he do?

If Bez stays, Bez will keep Vanney, sure. But if Manning concludes Bez didn't do enough, it's over for both of them.

[ag futbol]

"Given payroll" is a naive way of looking at an MLS roster.
The league's rules are competitively neutral. The salary cap ensures that.

Good grief. How exactly are these rules "neutral"?

In sports spending alone may not guarantee success but it has pretty consistently been shown to be a predictor of it over the long run. The expectations of a team with a high payroll to win is not unfounded.

[Ivy]

Good grief. How exactly are these rules "neutral"?

In sports spending alone may not guarantee success but it has pretty consistently been shown to be a predictor of it over the long run. The expectations of a team with a high payroll to win is not unfounded.

If it's spread out across the roster, sure.
If cbus go and sign Joe Hart for 30million a year, will their record be better? Doubt it.

[notthesun]

He'll evaluate Bez, and the question he'll be asking himself is: given that Bez started with a dumpster fire and $100M spent on three new stud players, how did he do?

If Bez stays, Bez will keep Vanney, sure. But if Manning concludes Bez didn't do enough, it's over for both of them.

I don't understand why you feel as though Manning may wrestle with the decision to keep Bez (or Vanney) when the team is performing very well and in all likelihood will finish the season with a first round playoff bye. If we finish top 2, Bez and Vanney did enough, full stop. And Manning is going to see it that way - this is the guy that kept the same coach during his entire tenure at RSL, who's preached stability since he arrived here, and who had the opportunity to clean house at the start of this year but decided against it. That's his MO - stick with what works. This is working, and if it continues working, Manning won't change a thing, nor should he.

[ag futbol]

If it's spread out across the roster, sure.
If cbus go and sign Joe Hart for 30million a year, will their record be better? Doubt it.

But at that point they've misspent their 30 million and they will rightfully come under criticism for not having spent that money properly.

Sure they could go out and spend it on a left back, a goal keeper, or a broken down DM CMNT regular but all else equal that money gives management a better shot at getting a difference maker vs. not having that money at all.

[Red4ever]

If we are ill prepared two years in a row for a playoff game, i'd consider that an indictment of his coaching tenure.

Mock the people who question Vanney all you want, but if you can't change tactics to succeed in a big game, you shouldn't be given a long leash. Would we end up with a worse coach? Perhaps, as Vanney is not terrible. But despite all of the success this season, I haven't seen anything that makes me confident in winning a game on the road in the playoffs.

[ensco]

I don't understand why you feel as though Manning may wrestle with the decision to keep Bez (or Vanney) when the team is performing very well and in all likelihood will finish the season with a first round playoff bye. If we finish top 2, Bez and Vanney did enough, full stop. And Manning is going to see it that way - this is the guy that kept the same coach during his entire tenure at RSL, who's preached stability since he arrived here, and who had the opportunity to clean house at the start of this year but decided against it. That's his MO - stick with what works. This is working, and if it continues working, Manning won't change a thing, nor should he.

This is the heart of the thing.

Bez and Vanney are both guys who didn't get this shot because they "deserved" it (Bez especially, I accept that Vanney looks like some other MLS coaches)

Manning will think hard about this because the mgmt/leadership team here is, in total, unusually junior. He didn't pick this route, and has to think very hard about making it his.

I doubt he will.

That is how I would bet it, anyway. I may not know soccer, but I have a passing familiarity with how suits think.

[Ivy]

Wait - so we win amway, get a home playoff date, and are awfully close to SS, but manning will get rid of Bez and Vanney cuz they're inexperienced? Or WERE inexperienced? I'm confused...

[ensco]

Wait - so we win amway, get a home playoff date, and are awfully close to SS, but manning will get rid of Bez and Vanney cuz they're inexperienced? Or WERE inexperienced? I'm confused...

Well, when you put it that way! ;-)

If we finish strong, then you are all probably right (same way MU did keep Casey)

But I just doubt we'll finish strong enough for that to happen.

Also, thanks to Kurt, appreciate you mixing it up with anonymous people who disagree, and have the luxury of throwing thunderbolts without owning the consequences.

[barticusz]

This is the heart of the thing.

Bez and Vanney are both guys who didn't get this shot because they "deserved" it (Bez especially, I accept that Vanney looks like some other MLS coaches)

Manning will think hard about this because the mgmt/leadership team here is, in total, unusually junior. He didn't pick this route, and has to think very hard about making it his.

I doubt he will.

That is how I would bet it, anyway. I may not know soccer, but I have a passing familiarity with how suits think.

Where is all this coming from? Who are you or I to judge if Bez deserved to be hired? Don't think either one of us sat in the interview or had the shortlist of candidates.

I don't mean to offend you but your posts are bordering on sounding hysterical. It appears you have a strong dislike of both Bez and Vanney and you're justifying it by coming up with conspiracies that have Manning not liking them either. Where you're getting this is beyond me.

Just enjoy the soccer! We're on one of our best runs in history and we've got a home stretch coming up. Should be fun.