New Vanney evaluation thread

[marquis]

But your assertion was that if we had a different manager than Vanney, we'd be pretty much where we are right now. When we have our first team firing on all cylinders as it has been recently, we lost two games in two months. Our record since July 1st is 7-3-2, so it would appear we are getting stronger as the season continues. Now, we'll see if the loss of Giovinco takes the wind out of our sails or if others step up, but I am hard-pressed to see the doom and gloom scenario you and Ronzilla are predicting.

If we continue to win at the pace we've been at all season and especially since July, how can we not be a solid contender? And how can none of the credit go to Vanney?

Or if you want to go by actual results, rather than speculation, then how can our current record and position in the table not be due, in part, to Vanney? It's absurd to pin all the negatives on him and all the positives in Giovinco.

Yes, we should've been further ahead by now not only in the standings, but in the way we approach games and overall performance. I have yet to see a game when we truly dominate and dictate the play. I also don't have any confidence that we can perform in truly meaningful games.
Let's wait until we actually win something before giving credit to Vanney or anybody else. Let's start with top of East (at the end of the season) and a long run in the playoffs. That would be the minimum acceptable result for this team after 2 years of stability under the same coach.

[OgtheDim]

Yes, we should've been further ahead by now not only in the standings, but in the way we approach games and overall performance.

Do you watch other MLS games? Sure, LAG used to dominate games and NYRB has done a few times this season but 99% of the time, nobody dominates any game anymore, even when winning 6-2 or 5-1. We did one dominant game like that this season - in Montreal.

I go back to what I say to a lot of people:

When it comes to judging success in MLS, we gotta throw out all we know about how pyramid top 4 Leagues operate. In those leagues, the need is to dominate the scoreline 90% of the games and go for wins and points - even rope a dope Mourinho does this. Because of the travel, MLS doesn't operate like that.

[Jack]

Yes, we should've been further ahead by now not only in the standings, but in the way we approach games and overall performance. I have yet to see a game when we truly dominate and dictate the play. I also don't have any confidence that we can perform in truly meaningful games.
Let's wait until we actually win something before giving credit to Vanney or anybody else. Let's start with top of East (at the end of the season) and a long run in the playoffs.

The New England game? Columbus a few weeks back? DC? Those were pretty comprehensive wins and we looked dominant. We came through to win the Canadian Championship, so there's that. All signs this season point to a vast improvement over our previous season. And what's wrong with giving credit to success so far? No one is crowning him or anything, but the fact is, we are better than last season, we won the CC and we are in first place. Now we need to keep it going and I see no indications of why we wouldn't, as we have improved steadily over the course of Vanney's tenure.

I guess all we can do is return to his conversation in a couple of months.

edit: to Og's point, we're not going to completely dominate for 90 minutes, but we have had dominant games where we win convincingly.

[TFC Tifoso]

Well I am not paid to do the scouting, but a name I would respond to would be M. Laudrup. If somebody like him could drill this team to keep the ball as Swansea used to, that would made me happy.

ok fair enough....at least you threw out a name....

my problem in general with getting Euro managers to come to MLS is that I believe (though I definitely have no proof) that these managers have false expectations of an MLS player's ability and it quickly sours them on the experience. We've seen it with others and with our own team as well (Carver, Winter)
A coach can come in here with all the "know how" and "want to" in the world but if the players can't execute, it can't get done.
imo, managers/coaches who have spent most of their time in NA, understand the strengths and limitations of the players and league we have here and can adapt to that much better than a European manager.

[TFC Tifoso]

because they played four central midfielders and four centre backs and Osorio was awful at the tip of the diamond and couldn't create anything. We need an upgrade at LB, as good as Morrow is defensively. we need at least one of our fullbacks to provide some width and be a viable offensive threat. We need a proper Am playmaker, which I think Chapman could definitely grow into. We lost that game because of the combinations of players on the field. they forced Bradley to try and play through balls when the whole impact Defence was standing in the six yard box. We needed to shoot more to stretch them out. We didn't and that's our fault. But 11 v 11 we win that game 9 out of 10 times. They played to their strengths and our weaknesses. Doesn't mean that larger sample size that is or record this season should be discounted.

and to be fair to the dissenters (because I always like to play devil's advocate, even when its a point I agree with.....helps to see the other side of a debate ), that has to fall on Vanney, and its an adjustment he needed to make on the fly.
To me this is where he needs the most work on...to be able to switch things up mid half when its not working.

But you could dissect every minute of every game to cherry pick moments that support any given stance.

Personally I look at the big picture, and where we are in the standings week to week.....and its pretty damn good this year, but more importantly, upward progression ever since Vanney has been manager.
Better team than before?.....sure, but the results are matching the quality of the team imo

MLS Wins - T2
East Wins - 1st
MLS Losses - 2nd least
MLS GF - 9th (could be a bit better there, but midfield injuries + Altidore are reason)
MLS GA - 3rd least (shipping goals has been our biggest problem for years and has been sorted)
MLS Pts - T-2nd most

Add to this what seems to be a happy locker room (another of TFC's traditional problems) and you can't argue with lots there imo.....

[marquis]

The New England game? Columbus a few weeks back? DC? Those were pretty comprehensive wins and we looked dominant. We came through to win the Canadian Championship, so there's that. All signs this season point to a vast improvement over our previous season. And what's wrong with giving credit to success so far? No one is crowning him or anything, but the fact is, we are better than last season, we won the CC and we are in first place. Now we need to keep it going and I see no indications of why we wouldn't, as we have improved steadily over the course of Vanney's tenure.

I guess all we can do is return to his conversation in a couple of months.

edit: to Og's point, we're not going to completely dominate for 90 minutes, but we have had dominant games where we win convincingly.

Yup, let's revisit in a few months. I wish this team will make us proud this season!

[Oldtimer]

I did provide plenty of arguments already:

OK let's deconstruct what you wrote:

Although I agree with the fact that Vanney improved significantly since last year, I still think his tactical prowess and ability to read a game and adjust are average at best.

That's an opinion, not a fact.

His game plan is pretty much the same - try to get the ball somehow in Giovinco/Altidore's general area and then hope for they can figure something out.

Actually, the evidence is strongly against this assertion. The team has scored a number of goals that didn't happen that way, and when asked the players said that they had done the play before in practice. That shows Vanney has been training the team tactically.

There is absolutely no midfield buildup, no combinations, no visible schemes.

I coached youth myself for many years, and I constantly see different combinations and schemes. The one's I've seen work well against some teams, but poorly against bunkering teams.

When the opposing team applies sustained high pressure, like Montreal did last week, we are pretty much neutralized - watch again the first half against MTL, we literally couldn't get past the midfield, most passing occurred in our half. Somebody said earlier that was disappointing that "we came out of the blocks like a wet squib". Well, I think we simply couldn't do anything because MTL dictated the game.

Actually Montreal bunkered, not apply "sustained high pressure." They did not dictate the game. Their goal was against the flow of play and was opportunistic. You are correct though that it is a fact that much of the possession occurred in TFC's end.

Well, I think we simply couldn't do anything because MTL dictated the game. That's all on Vanney, he was simply outclassed tactically.

His lack of tactical IQ becomes even more evident when we are up one or two men. We then have the whole midfield to our disposal but we are incapable of creating any opportunities because the players clearly don't know what do with the ball: there are no practiced combinations, no fast 1-2's or any type of direct play to try and penetrate the overcrowded defense. Again, no plan, no ability to read the game and adjust.

Actually, as per the post game commentary, the players didn't follow Vanney's game plan, so the fault was not with Vanney's tactics. Man-management, maybe, but I actually put it on the players because there is no other evidence that Vanney is having problems managing his players. In fact the players, including Bradley (who always speaks his mind because he can as USA's captain) say how much they respect him.

I strongly believe that had we hired a proven manager (from Europe, not MLS) 2 years ago, we would now be firmly in Shield and Cup contention. There is a strong imbalance between the quality of our roster and the coach's abilities. A 401 Corolla commuter would never get the most out of a Ferrari.

That again is an opinion, and one not based on fact. MLS history actually goes against what you say, very few foreign managers have done well in MLS. They can't handle mixing stars with college graduates, and somehow have Morgan passing to Giovinco and have it all work tactically. That's not how it works in Europe.

I am not advocating firing Vanney now and blowing up the house again. Vanney should finish the season, but Manning should start looking and make the change for next season. MLSE needs to open their wallets and lure a star coach from Europe. Why can't we be great?

Again an opinion, and one I question. If Vanney does well, you think that blowing up the team at the end of the season makes sense? What if he wins the Supporter's Shield? He should be fired? What if he wins the MLS Cup?

He should be evaluated at season end. If he has performed, he stays. I would take a good-performing proven MLS manager (which Vanney would be if he did well) over some Euro guy who may or may not work out in this league.

[starter]

ok fair enough....at least you threw out a name....

my problem in general with getting Euro managers to come to MLS is that I believe (though I definitely have no proof) that these managers have false expectations of an MLS player's ability and it quickly sours them on the experience. We've seen it with others and with our own team as well (Carver, Winter)
A coach can come in here with all the "know how" and "want to" in the world but if the players can't execute, it can't get done.
imo, managers/coaches who have spent most of their time in NA, understand the strengths and limitations of the players and league we have here and can adapt to that much better than a European manager.

If TFC were able to attract Jovinco level talent, I am sure they would be able to properly scout an experienced manager [ from elsewhere ] as well.
Cheers!

[ManUtd4ever]

I am cautiously optimistic that Vanney will make the necessary adjustments over the next few weeks in Seba's absence. The next few games will be a true test of the depth of our squad.

[TFC Tifoso]

If TFC were able to attract Jovinco level talent, I am sure they would be able to properly scout an experienced manager [ from elsewhere ] as well.
Cheers!

apples and oranges.....players can come to MLS for the financial opportunities that are simply unavailable to them anywhere else...and have a relatively short time to earn that money so they'll go to a place where it can be maximized.
Managers can do their thing for as long as they like in Europe (or at least as long as any team is willing to let them to do it).
Also, I'd guess that most big managers in Europe still have a poor opinion of MLS so regardless of wage, it would be seen as a step down to them.....

and cheers to you as well!

[OgtheDim]

If TFC were able to attract Jovinco level talent, I am sure they would be able to properly scout an experienced manager [ from elsewhere ] as well.
Cheers!

Could it be that they scouted an inexperienced but with a lot of potential manager already in Vanney, a guy who fits the MLS 3.0 mode?

Started in MLS back in 1996
Former MLS All Star
Former USMNT
Academy Experience including setting up a residency (RSL actually)
Experience running a soccer facility MLS teams chose to do preseasons
MLS Assistant Experience

Oh...and spot the colour guy on this from our 2009 season





Yeah, yeah...I know...not head coaching experience. But still...he's not exactly new to MLS.

[marquis]

Oldtimer, at this point we're running around in circles. I could take the time and respond to your counter-arguments, but it won't get us anywhere. I guess we can agree to disagree.
I respect your opinion (and everyone else's) and at the end of the day I hope you're right about Vanney and we will find success sooner rather later. Maybe this year.

Cheers!

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer, at this point we're running around in circles. I could take the time and respond to your counter-arguments, but it won't get us anywhere. I guess we can agree to disagree.
I respect your opinion (and everyone else's) and at the end of the day I hope you're right about Vanney and we will find success sooner rather later. Maybe this year.

Cheers!

Fair enough! I think you have a lot of good points from time-to-time, so I appreciate your contributions here.

[molenshtain]

No. Actually there is a lot.

care to provide some reasons or evidence to support your claim?

[ronzilla]

The New England game? Columbus a few weeks back? DC? Those were pretty comprehensive wins and we looked dominant. We came through to win the Canadian Championship, so there's that. All signs this season point to a vast improvement over our previous season. And what's wrong with giving credit to success so far? No one is crowning him or anything, but the fact is, we are better than last season, we won the CC and we are in first place. Now we need to keep it going and I see no indications of why we wouldn't, as we have improved steadily over the course of Vanney's tenure.

I guess all we can do is return to his conversation in a couple of months.

edit: to Og's point, we're not going to completely dominate for 90 minutes, but we have had dominant games where we win convincingly.

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson
and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.

If Vanney were to coach Chicago and bring the team to top of the table, then you could give full credit to the coach, although TFC have the best roster in the league, including MVP, therefore they are expected to win. Right now, 95% of credit should go to the team and I give Vanney very little credit, if any, because I feel he has somehow become a burden to the team.

Not being able to win one single game when having a man advantage, or two, against some teams with weak opponents in 6 attempts is sending smoke signals to top brass that a catastrophe is waiting to happen, and more than likely it will come in the playoffs.

Vanney also has a track record of making bizarre, perplexing substitutions that have cost us many games and this will contiue into the playoffs.

I can't see this team making a deep playoff run with Vanney.

[ronzilla]

Also, Vanney's poor coaching abilities were exposed when Seba went through that 8 game scoring drought with the team winning only 2 out of 8. Some people have also mentioned that those 2 wins came from atrocious officiating that was in favor of TFC.

Most people will argue that we were missing key players during this time, however other teams also have their fair share of injuries to deal with.

[molenshtain]

and to be fair to the dissenters (because I always like to play devil's advocate, even when its a point I agree with.....helps to see the other side of a debate ), that has to fall on Vanney, and its an adjustment he needed to make on the fly.
To me this is where he needs the most work on...to be able to switch things up mid half when its not working.

But you could dissect every minute of every game to cherry pick moments that support any given stance.

Personally I look at the big picture, and where we are in the standings week to week.....and its pretty damn good this year, but more importantly, upward progression ever since Vanney has been manager.
Better team than before?.....sure, but the results are matching the quality of the team imo

MLS Wins - T2
East Wins - 1st
MLS Losses - 2nd least
MLS GF - 9th (could be a bit better there, but midfield injuries + Altidore are reason)
MLS GA - 3rd least (shipping goals has been our biggest problem for years and has been sorted)
MLS Pts - T-2nd most

Add to this what seems to be a happy locker room (another of TFC's traditional problems) and you can't argue with lots there imo.....

And that's a totally fair argument. Vanney's adjustments didn't work. Part of that was that his plans were thrown out when he had to sub in Endoh for Seba instead of presumably one of beitashour, Osorio or Delgado (Endoh was warmed up and ready to come in before Seba went down). That made the rest of his adjustments difficult. He set the game up for us to be up early and have MTL chase the game, that's why Ricketts was on the bench. Cheyrou was useful when he came on because he provided creativity and service most of the rest of the squad can't provide. even then I wasn't a very big fan of His subs.

But like you say, overall we're in a really good position. If everyone's healthy down the stretch I could definitely see us chasing the SS and the MLS cup. The east looks especially easy for us. Playing NYCFC in a home and away makes me a little nervous just because of there pitch - anything can happen there. Otherwise I think we match up very well and are significantly more talented than every other eastern conference team. My bet is LA comes out of the west. They're the only team I think can match up with us talent wise.

[starter]

Could it be that they scouted an inexperienced but with a lot of potential manager already in Vanney, a guy who fits the MLS 3.0 mode?

Started in MLS back in 1996
Former MLS All Star
Former USMNT
Academy Experience including setting up a residency (RSL actually)
Experience running a soccer facility MLS teams chose to do preseasons
MLS Assistant Experience

Oh...and spot the colour guy on this from our 2009 season





Yeah, yeah...I know...not head coaching experience. But still...he's not exactly new to MLS.

Vanney is certainly above the average NA player, and he is been around MLS, but at the same time Winter/Preki perhaps had more decent resume at the time.
At the time of hiring he had no head coaching experience to speak of, and should have fallen to the bottom of the hiring list. The list either was not too long ( FO scouting failure ), or they accidentally placed it upside down.

[OgtheDim]

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson
and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.
...

Yes because defences and offences just go out there and play...


BTW, most opinion I've seen is Morrow is not as good this season as last. He was arguably TFC's MVP in 2014, kept at his level in 2015 and has slightly regressed this season.

To Starter - I think they went with what I suggested - MLS 3.0 potential with a well rounded resume - build your own Kreis, so to speak. Again, head coaching experience is not ALWAYS the desired thing with MLS coaches.

[ensco]

Bez and Vanney will either stay or leave based on what happens over the next two months.

I think it's fair . They've had a reasonable amount of time, and all I care about is results.

It is life in the big city.

[Oldtimer]

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson

The old "if we win it's the players, if we lose it's Vanney" unprovable argument.

and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.

and the coach has zero to do with players improving? I would say the coach deserves the credit when young players improve, that's been Vanney's strongest point and only someone incredibly biased would argue otherwise.

If Vanney were to coach Chicago and bring the team to top of the table, then you could give full credit to the coach

But if one player was changed in the lineup would you not give credit to that player and not Vanney? Admit it.

Vanney also has a track record of making bizarre, perplexing substitutions that have cost us many games and this will contiue into the playoffs.

If you have been following the rest of the league closely, other coaches who have done well have had their subs questioned. Often we have no idea what is going on in the locker room.

Also, Vanney's poor coaching abilities were exposed when Seba went through that 8 game scoring drought with the team winning only 2 out of 8. Some people have also mentioned that those 2 wins came from atrocious officiating that was in favor of TFC.

Most people will argue that we were missing key players during this time, however other teams also have their fair share of injuries to deal with.

Which other team was missing 2 out of 3 DPs for a stretch like that? Name that team.

Also, Vanney's poor coaching abilities were exposed when Seba went through that 8 game scoring drought with the team winning only 2 out of 8. Some people have also mentioned that those 2 wins came from atrocious officiating that was in favor of TFC.

Most people will argue that we were missing key players during this time, however other teams also have their fair share of injuries to deal with.

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

Umm... I think you were cherry picking a short stretch of games there in an otherwise great season so far.

All strikers go through droughts. How is that on the coach?

I'm not saying Vanney's perfect and he had better find out a way to get his team to play better against bunkering teams, but he isn't a disaster either.

[molenshtain]

Cherry picking games will never give you an acurate assesment.

The only reason this team is better this year is because of the addition of new players such as Moor, Irwin, Beita, and Johnson
and also Bono and Morrow have greatly improved.

If Vanney were to coach Chicago and bring the team to top of the table, then you could give full credit to the coach, although TFC have the best roster in the league, including MVP, therefore they are expected to win. Right now, 95% of credit should go to the team and I give Vanney very little credit, if any, because I feel he has somehow become a burden to the team.

Not being able to win one single game when having a man advantage, or two, against some teams with weak opponents in 6 attempts is sending smoke signals to top brass that a catastrophe is waiting to happen, and more than likely it will come in the playoffs.

Vanney also has a track record of making bizarre, perplexing substitutions that have cost us many games and this will contiue into the playoffs.

I can't see this team making a deep playoff run with Vanney.

Our best player was in a seriously uncharacteristic slump through those eight games. He was almost detrimental in the way he kept looking off his teammates to shoot at absolutely every opportunity possible. But that stretch also allowed time for Chapman to grow into a solid AM, as well as Hamilton a viable back up for Altidore. throughout the season Vanney also been able to get solid performances from squad players such as Chapman, Hagglund, Bloom, Morgan, Lovitz, Endoh, Babouli (sort of), Bono, Williams, Hamilton and now Ricketts. He also built in a tactical versatility into our squad using a variety of different lineups like a 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-1-2-1-2, 3-5-2 and 5-3-2 without any significant difference in playing style or playing level.

Yes, Our starting lineup is certainly more talented than last years. No doubt about that. But perhaps part of the problem last year was that Vanney didn't have the players capable, or a roster deep enough to perform the tasks he wanted them to. I think he's a lot more comfortable with the guys he has this year. He's also been able to greatly improve the play of a lot of the younger guys on the team who looked completely lost last year. Delgado, Chapman, Hamilton, Zavaleta or all demonstratobly better players this year then they were last year and I think a certain amount of credit has to go to Vanney for their improvement. Even Altidore is playing like a completely different player this year than he ever has in his career. His hold up play and Work rate are so, so much better this year than they were last year or even when he was in Europe. He never used to post up guys like he does now. That's 100% Vanney's coaching.

We also have one of the best, if not the best defensive unit's in the league (Colorado are solid at the back, but they don't send guys forward at all so it's not quite comparable). Bradley playing as a DM and having Johnson, Irwin, Moor and Beita play a big part in that for sure, but the organization on the field and the improvement of guys like Hagglund, Bloom and especially Zavaleta, who looked like dead men walking by the end of last season, is too a point down to Vanney's coaching. Vanney also had to deal with the fact that two of his starting back four last year went down immediately for the season, Perquis wasn't as good as Bez thought he was going to be, and we never really found a back four that worked well together. It was always going to be a shit show with how many injuries and inconsistencies we had at the back last season.

I agree we have a really talented roster, and when we're healthy we should be able to go toe-to-toe with anyone in the league. But Vanney's ability to be tactically flexible, vastly improve the youth and depth of the roster is a big reason we're first despite the fact that Altidore, Irwin, Bradley, Johnson, Giovinco have missed a 41 combined games. Missing Seba for the next three games will certainly be a test of the roster and Vanney's ability, but I'm not particularly worried because of the reasons I've mentioned above.

If you want to know what it's like when a bad coach has a really good team and just sends them out to do what they do, listen to sounders fans talk about the Schmidt era. He was a truly awful tactician and curator of talent. The coach you describe sounds a lot more like Schmidt than it does Vanney.

[Oldtimer]

Bez and Vanney will either stay or leave based on what happens over the next two months.

I think it's fair . They've had a reasonable amount of time, and all I care about is results.

It is life in the big city.

So true. It's a cruel results-driven business and they are on a short leash, not being Manning's picks.

[molenshtain]

Bez and Vanney will either stay or leave based on what happens over the next two months.

I think it's fair . They've had a reasonable amount of time, and all I care about is results.

It is life in the big city.

We agree, for once. As much as I've praised Vanney and Bez, we have to get to the conference finals and a top 2 finish in the east for them to justify keeping their jobs. We're such an obviously better team than anyone else in the east it's hard to find an excuse for not coming up with results.

I'm just worried about who we'd go after were we to look for someone new. I feel really confident in our squad and organizational set up right now. I'd be cautious to throw a wrench into something that overall is going pretty well. There's only 1-2 guys in MLS in both the coaching and GM positions I'd feel comfortable coming in and continuing the significant progress we've made the last two years.

[Areathrasher]

Part one of a 1on1 between Vanney and Molinaro. Have at er kids...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/toron...ue-soccer-mls/

[ensco]

We agree, for once. As much as I've praised Vanney and Bez, we have to get to the conference finals and a top 2 finish in the east for them to justify keeping their jobs. We're such an obviously better team than anyone else in the east it's hard to find an excuse for not coming up with results.

I'm just worried about who we'd go after were we to look for someone new. I feel really confident in our squad and organizational set up right now. I'd be cautious to throw a wrench into something that overall is going pretty well. There's only 1-2 guys in MLS in both the coaching and GM positions I'd feel comfortable coming in and continuing the significant progress we've made the last two years.

It'd be Manning himself in charge, plus the latest Doogie Howzer capologist, plus whomever he brings in to coach. It wouldn't be radical change, or the end of the world.

[molenshtain]

It'd be Manning himself in charge, plus the latest Doogie Howzer capologist, plus whomever he brings in to coach. It wouldn't be radical change, or the end of the world.

Yeah I get that. I just don't understand the thinking behind that from Manning's perspective. I find it hard to imagine he's unhappy with the results his employees are producing, regardless of if he himself hired them or not.

[TMAN80]

because they played four central midfielders and four centre backs and Osorio was awful at the tip of the diamond and couldn't create anything. We need an upgrade at LB, as good as Morrow is defensively. we need at least one of our fullbacks to provide some width and be a viable offensive threat. We need a proper Am playmaker, which I think Chapman could definitely grow into. We lost that game because of the combinations of players on the field. they forced Bradley to try and play through balls when the whole impact Defence was standing in the six yard box. We needed to shoot more to stretch them out. We didn't and that's our fault. But 11 v 11 we win that game 9 out of 10 times. They played to their strengths and our weaknesses. Doesn't mean that larger sample size that is or record this season should be discounted.

I agree with most of this too, but LB wasn't the biggest problem I didn't think. We needed creativity through skill, and being attack minded. That was my original point about Vanney, and his poor choice of subs, along with his inability to make the move earlier when the team is struggling against a team that is bunkering. I think Saturday would have been different had Cheyrou come on 15-20 mins earlier. Cooper would have provided a different look/shape as well. Rickets made no sense and was a waste for this situation(again too late in my opinion anyways).

I just don't know Vanney couldn't have known the we would be shut down, just like the other times in this situation. I'm happy overall, but I do feel that his choices sometimes are costing us some points. I feel like he gets brain freeze, and can't make a decision sometimes.

He can improve though, lets hope it's sooner rather than later.

[Auzzy]

to me, he has shown significant improvement and we should close this thread in recognition that coaching simply isn't an issue for us. It would actually strengthen his hand in the locker room if we did.

#wethevanney

Why should we close this thread? It's the "New Vanney evaluation thread," not the "fire Vanney" thread. I think we should always be evaluating the coach. I'm sure Vanney would do so himself.

[MightyDM]

Why should we close this thread? It's the "New Vanney evaluation thread," not the "fire Vanney" thread. I think we should always be evaluating the coach. I'm sure Vanney would do so himself.

I made that clear in my post. This reply is only to the last sentence.