This is it right here.Originally Posted by Areathrasher
If you are a manager who has the ability to obtain any sort of success in Europe or South America, why would you come to MLS?
The only coaches coming to MLS are guys who can't find a job elsewhere and these guys are probably running out of date systems that no serious club would want or they are freshmen coaches looking to gain experience - Do we really want one of those coming over here?
Many love the idea of Euro mgrs in MLS. However, the track record is bleak. I loved what Pauno did with the Serbian U-20s and I thought he would light it up in Chicago. Nope. He'll probably get to keep his job through the next preseason to see if he can put together something, but just as likely he gets canned in November.
I'm not saying it will be easy, but it wasn't easy to convince Defoe and Giovinco either. Bez & Manning better get to work and find somebody that's not only a good manager but also a good fit for MLS/TFC/salary disparity etc. Why are they there for then? Make it happen. Just finding reasons why it can't be done will not solve the problem.
You've missed the point. MLS sides have tried and they've failed. The type of manager you want has taken a look at MLS gigs and said "thanks but no thanks"
Trying to recruit players and coaches are two different propositions.
I'm not sure being unable to bring in an experienced European manager is a problem.
Things are changing, there's a first for everything. We can't always refer to the past as a template. A few years ago nobody thought a Giovinco calibre player would come to MLS at 28, and yet he's here. I think it's a lot easier to convince a good coach to come to MLS than a good player.
No, that's not a problem in itself, the problem is our current coach inability to take this team to the next level.
Last edited by marquis; 08-31-2016 at 11:23 AM.
so far, this team under Vanney has passed every single previous team milestone.....how can you convincingly say today that he can't take us to the next level?
Inconclusive at worst, and actually quite possible he can, if you look at the team's (albeit short) trending under Vanney's time here......
OK, but the well known MLS alternatives are:
Schmid? No thanks. He couldn't get the lanky Texan to play in the hole and to his strengths - how's he going to handle Giovinco and Bradley?
Petke? By all accounts as uninterested in things beyond the MLS team as Nelsen was. Dismissive of the Academy. i.e. He's MLS 2.0.
Backing Up a Truck and Getting Arena? - Not going to happen under Manning
In essence, whomever would replace Vanney would/will be equally unknown with specific weaknesses.
BTW, the Houston press have been chortling over the inability of Owen Coyle to do defence for Blackburn - so, no just because they are European doesn't mean they are even good enough in Europe.
Vanney also benefited from having at his disposal the best TFC roster ever, possibly the best in MLS right now. I would bring up again the Corolla commuter driving a Ferrari analogy...
I don't disagree with you, Vanney is not much worse/better than any of the current MLS coaches (except for Arena maybe). That's why I'm saying we should start looking beyond MLS. It's not gonna happen overnight, I agree the track record of getting experienced Euro coaches is not good, but that should be the Management's short/medium term project. With enough money in the pocket, they should be able to find somebody sooner or later. If that means keeping Vanney for a bit longer, so be it, but start the process already. Who knows, maybe it's already in the works...
Last edited by marquis; 08-31-2016 at 11:26 AM.
fair enough......which is why I say inconclusive at worst.
There is just no way you can say today that Vanney can't take us to the next level.
He is showing maturation a a manger, the team is top of the conference, and by all accounts the players like playing for him......we've never had all 3 of these at the same time at this point in the season.
This guy would already be considered a success anywhere else in MLS.....except Toronto lol......
We've gone the Euro route before (Carver, Winter) with poor results.
it is doubtful that Manning will open up the pocket for a manger, as he traditionally does not do that even for players.
I have a feeling that if Manning does decide to let Vanney go in the near future, his replacement will be VERY underwhelming to many on here.....
Us and the Galaxy, at full strength, are best equipped to go deep in the playoffs this year. I'm confident we go far with Vanney at the helm. And not just this year, but for the foreseeable future with our ability to bring in top end DP's, an academy that's starting to regularly produce top end talent, a reasonably effective drafting strategy and some really smart inside the league deals. Despite some odd in game decisions, we're definitely on the up and up with Vanney.
I fought hard to defend Vanney even at the worst of times last year. Most long time posters know that. I got the criticisms leveled at him last year and to an extent a lot of those arguments were fair. I thought there were an absolute ton of mitigating factors that didn't led us see how good he really was last year, but I understood the anger and frustration. But I'd never ever imagine he'd grow so much in his second year with us. I guess it goes to show how much better a manager be when he get's the chance to get comfortable with his squad and trusts his players.
I'm speaking very genuinely when I say this, but when looking around the league and comparing Vanney's overall ability as a coach, a tactician and a curator of talent; he's one of the best five, if not best three coaches in the league. Pareja and Arena are the two clearly ahead of him. But other than that I don't see any other coach who can claim that they're overall clearly better than him. He's been, apart from some odd gaffes here and there (San Jose for example), pretty superb at his job this year. Playoffs matter the most obviously, so I'm waiting to see how we perform when we get there, but at the moment I'd be glad if we resigned him to a long term contract.
Aren't we currently firmly in Shield and Cup contention?
Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy
Vanney proved himself this year in my opinion. He didn't last year - so bringing him into this year as the head coach was a huge gamble. Huge! Looks like it paid off, though, so that's great. We could have also kept any of our former coaches into a year two and seen the same turn around I guess, but I'm not personally a fan on risking the house on newbies. It's always a gamble when you bet on someone with zero background. But we bet the house on Vanney, and turns out he DID fix our defense. Couldn't do it last year, but he's managed to do it this year. I also feel that we're better overall, and not so reliant on Giovinco as we were last year. Big test ahead as we play a few games without Gio - let's see what Vanney can produce in his absence.
I'm not sure about this.
For me what separates Vanney from the others we've had is the way he speaks about the game.....to me he's a tactical nerd, for lack of a better term, and its something that I haven't seen before with any other manager we've had (maybe Winter can compare from the tactical sense, but he was so out of touch with MLS/NA it wasn't even funny).
For all the notion that he is/was inexperienced, it may be true strictly from a top tier coaching persepective, but he's been around the game in NA for a long time......the playing experience helps too imo, even though it was a much different MLS then.....
I have never had issues with Vanney, more with people who choose to hire him.
He seem to be doing OK, compared to what I had feared, but we are riding his learning curve. The defence has improved, and we are converting better transition into goals. But inability of the team to perform with possession is now became obvious, as we fail regularly against shorthanded teams.
For a mature organisation, it would totally made sense to bring in an experienced football manager ( not MLS ) to take advantage of all the talent we are signing, and give him a bean counter like Bez to navigate MLS rules.
To say there is no managers to be had is like arguing that there is no houses for rent in Tuscany.
Cheers
who would you have in mind?....
I'm definitely happy we're top of East right now, but the way I see things, that's not sustainable and I don't see us going very deep into playoffs.
I honestly hope I'm wrong...
I'm not sure how anyone can say we won't go deep in the playoffs. Portland was pretty mediocre last year and they won it all.
You're not wrong. As long as vanney is behind the wheel, this team will make another early playoff exit.
Well I am not paid to do the scouting, but a name I would respond to would be M. Laudrup. If somebody like him could drill this team to keep the ball as Swansea used to, that would made me happy.
Totally agree! There was absolutely no technical ability on display, so we reverted to crossing it poorly over and over again.
I read there were internal issues with him at Swans, which is really why he was fired.
because they played four central midfielders and four centre backs and Osorio was awful at the tip of the diamond and couldn't create anything. We need an upgrade at LB, as good as Morrow is defensively. we need at least one of our fullbacks to provide some width and be a viable offensive threat. We need a proper Am playmaker, which I think Chapman could definitely grow into. We lost that game because of the combinations of players on the field. they forced Bradley to try and play through balls when the whole impact Defence was standing in the six yard box. We needed to shoot more to stretch them out. We didn't and that's our fault. But 11 v 11 we win that game 9 out of 10 times. They played to their strengths and our weaknesses. Doesn't mean that larger sample size that is or record this season should be discounted.
I prefer facts to be the basis of whether we should keep or get rid of Vanney, not feelings. If at the end of the season TFC is in a good spot, he deserves to keep that role.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Very little evidence to support that claim.
But your assertion was that if we had a different manager than Vanney, we'd be pretty much where we are right now. When we have our first team firing on all cylinders as it has been recently, we lost two games in two months. Our record since July 1st is 7-3-2, so it would appear we are getting stronger as the season continues. Now, we'll see if the loss of Giovinco takes the wind out of our sails or if others step up, but I am hard-pressed to see the doom and gloom scenario you and Ronzilla are predicting.
If we continue to win at the pace we've been at all season and especially since July, how can we not be a solid contender? And how can none of the credit go to Vanney?
Or if you want to go by actual results, rather than speculation, then how can our current record and position in the table not be due, in part, to Vanney? It's absurd to pin all the negatives on him and all the positives in Giovinco.
Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy
I did provide plenty of arguments already:
No. Actually there is a lot.
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