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  1. #1261
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinamoTFC View Post
    Is Vanney a good coach or does he need good players in order to be a good coach?

    The team is extremely slow and predictable with average players and he seems too stubborn to change. Discuss
    I think Vanney is the type of coach who has an ideal system that he needs quality players for. It's technical and needs players who have a good sense of position. He doesn't have enough of those players with various departures (and not just our DPs).

    One solution is to get him the players he needs. Curtis so far has failed to do this.

    Another solution, especially if (1) MLSE has actually decided to majorly cut costs and won't be getting those players or if (2) they are keeping Curtis and he'll fail getting those players is to replace Vanney with a pragmatic coach who wins playing ugly games with mediocre players. There's a few MLS coaches who manage to play that game. We won't look like Barcelona but we might win more marginal games.

    I favour getting better players because I would like us to follow the vision of "being great."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DinamoTFC View Post
    Is Vanney a good coach or does he need good players in order to be a good coach?

    The team is extremely slow and predictable with average players and he seems too stubborn to change. Discuss
    Its true for every coach in the world. If their roster is terrible, then they’re not going to succeed.

    Tonight was not on Vanney. We outshot DC United 20-3. We kept the ball in their third for stretches at a time. A coach is helpless when nobody can finish and teams just cue in on Pozuelo knowing there’s no one else that can threaten their backline.

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    We don't have the worst squad in MLS - if the manager can't tweak the style to the players he has is he a good manager?

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    We are also not playing the worst of any squad in MLS.

    That we have not had a good finisher baring Koovs, DeRo, Osorio, VV, Seba & Jozy is as mind baffling as our inability to grow a defender since Maurice Edu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I think Vanney is the type of coach who has an ideal system that he needs quality players for. It's technical and needs players who have a good sense of position. He doesn't have enough of those players with various departures (and not just our DPs).

    One solution is to get him the players he needs. Curtis so far has failed to do this.

    Another solution, especially if (1) MLSE has actually decided to majorly cut costs and won't be getting those players or if (2) they are keeping Curtis and he'll fail getting those players is to replace Vanney with a pragmatic coach who wins playing ugly games with mediocre players. There's a few MLS coaches who manage to play that game. We won't look like Barcelona but we might win more marginal games.

    I favour getting better players because I would like us to follow the vision of "being great."
    I’m of the same opinion. We don’t have the players Vanney needs to play the system he wants, but Vanney also isn’t adapting when necessary.

    He doesn’t have the players to adapt, nor does he have the ones to play his possession system. We’re stuck with a bunch of slow, narrow players and no firepower up front.

    At the start of the season, some of us figured that outscoring the opposition every game wasn’t going to be sustainable, and it wasn’t. We’re also really struggling with depth when a key player is injured, and we’re back to not being able to break down parked buses.

    Early on in the season it was “goals will come” and “we don’t get many shots, but the ones we do go in the goal.” Now the PPG has dried up, the goals have dried up, and even with a zillion chances they can put it in the net from open play.

    Without Jozy we lack offensive consistency. Without Moor we lack defensive consistency. Hate to see what happens if Pozo goes down.

    If we make good signings in the summer it could turn the team around, but Curtis honestly wasted time and tugged our chain so I don’t trust the FO to get it done. We certainly need to not blow every game up until that point though.

    Same story: either buy Vanney the players he needs, have Vanney switch up the system, or bring in someone to play with the players you intend to bring in.

    Just an aside: the broadcast quoted Vanney as saying “possession with a purpose” again, only for us to end up with 71% possession, 662 accurate passes with a pass completion of 89%, and 35 shots...

    With no end product.

    Even if we were the least lucky team in the world, that has to be infuriating for Vanney.

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    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/...-jozy-altidore

    I have a feeling either Vanney or Curtis is going to get sacked by the summer.

    Curtis is Vanney's boss, but Vanney wasn't hired by Curtis. There's going to be friction between the two

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    Hell is always loose here. It can't break loose again
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    -Fort York Redcoat, on the state of TFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/...-jozy-altidore

    I have a feeling either Vanney or Curtis is going to get sacked by the summer.

    Curtis is Vanney's boss, but Vanney wasn't hired by Curtis. There's going to be friction between the two
    While neither is perfect, I would be 100% in Vanney’s corner here.

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    Outside of him slapping Manning across the face, 0% chance Curtis doesn't last the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    I’m of the same opinion. We don’t have the players Vanney needs to play the system he wants, but Vanney also isn’t adapting when necessary.

    He doesn’t have the players to adapt, nor does he have the ones to play his possession system. We’re stuck with a bunch of slow, narrow players and no firepower up front.

    At the start of the season, some of us figured that outscoring the opposition every game wasn’t going to be sustainable, and it wasn’t. We’re also really struggling with depth when a key player is injured, and we’re back to not being able to break down parked buses.

    Early on in the season it was “goals will come” and “we don’t get many shots, but the ones we do go in the goal.” Now the PPG has dried up, the goals have dried up, and even with a zillion chances they can put it in the net from open play.

    Without Jozy we lack offensive consistency. Without Moor we lack defensive consistency. Hate to see what happens if Pozo goes down.

    If we make good signings in the summer it could turn the team around, but Curtis honestly wasted time and tugged our chain so I don’t trust the FO to get it done. We certainly need to not blow every game up until that point though.

    Same story: either buy Vanney the players he needs, have Vanney switch up the system, or bring in someone to play with the players you intend to bring in.

    Just an aside: the broadcast quoted Vanney as saying “possession with a purpose” again, only for us to end up with 71% possession, 662 accurate passes with a pass completion of 89%, and 35 shots...

    With no end product.

    Even if we were the least lucky team in the world, that has to be infuriating for Vanney.
    To be fair, DC bunkered to a ridiculous extent, moreso than I've maybe ever seen before. I mean, Mavinga was making runs for crying out loud.

    I'm not sure we could have scored even with Jozy and/or Giovinco.

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    In regards to the DC United game. Put yourself in Vanney's shoes. Imagine seeing you team dominate possession and just can't get it done with the XI on the field. You know you need to change someone. You look to your bench and you see Terrance Fucking Boyd. What exactly is the man supposed to do? With the squad he has, how is he supposed to adapt/change the formation to make it work?

    Say you're Pozuelo. You're playing AM and are tasked to move the ball forward. You dribble through two or three DCU players and are looking to make that last pass to break the striker through the defense. You look up and you see Hamilton and Boyd up there. How the hell are you supposed to advance the ball that way?

    I really think FO has really set him up for failure and it all started with Bez. Let's not forget that most of the current squad has been built by him. He is gone now and there is no repercussions for him. This new FO could have helped out the squad this past transfer window. They chose/believe that they'll have more/better options in the summer transfer window. I'm sure they did an analysis to determine the points they'll get until the window opens and I'm sure they think that they can manage until then. I just hope that they are right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/...-jozy-altidore

    I have a feeling either Vanney or Curtis is going to get sacked by the summer.

    Curtis is Vanney's boss, but Vanney wasn't hired by Curtis. There's going to be friction between the two
    If Curtis brings in some players in the summer, it will be OK. If he fails...
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

    Supporting since 2007


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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    To be fair, DC bunkered to a ridiculous extent, moreso than I've maybe ever seen before. I mean, Mavinga was making runs for crying out loud.

    I'm not sure we could have scored even with Jozy and/or Giovinco.
    I’m well aware of this.

    That said, we broke down teams parking the bus numerous times in 2017.

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    Given the obvious exhaustion issue, and altitude, why didn’t we bunker yesterday?

    DC played it perfectly. Play subs, bunker, if it's working put the stars back in to try and steal it on the counter

    Instead we burn a guy like Pozo out, which increases the risk of things like two yellows...
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Given the obvious exhaustion issue, and altitude, why didn’t we bunker yesterday?

    DC played it perfectly. Play subs, bunker, if it's working put the stars back in to try and steal it on the counter

    Instead we burn a guy like Pozo out, which increases the risk of things like two yellows...
    Exactly! It's so bizarre. We were the opposite of bunker. There were situations where two of our CBs were in the opposing half.

    I do wonder if we have the defenders to bunker well, especially yesterday... But the midfielders could help.

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    ^It is frustrating to compare what we did in the Atlanta and SLC games with what DCU did in our game.

    They did purposeful squad rotation, and still played for points.

    What were we doing? We just flat out conceded the game against Atlanta, then we burned everyone out in a Don Quixote display in Salt Lake.
    Last edited by ensco; 05-19-2019 at 10:30 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Given the obvious exhaustion issue, and altitude, why didn’t we bunker yesterday?

    DC played it perfectly. Play subs, bunker, if it's working put the stars back in to try and steal it on the counter

    Instead we burn a guy like Pozo out, which increases the risk of things like two yellows...
    Exactly. The rotations have been totally weird. Why concede Atlanta?

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    I do not foresee Vanney (or anyone for that matter) getting sacked. The only way that happens is if we miss the playoffs, which is going to be near impossible since the majority of teams make the playoffs now. Even then, if we miss the playoffs I can just hear the excuses of injury or not being able to get in players in the spring. It feels like these guys are truly bomb-proof.

    Last year, I think I might of said that I don't think Vanney will leave unless Bez is gone. This year, after a total fucking joke of a CCL performance, followed by consistent mediocrity in the league and no fire beginning to develop under Vanney's seat at BMO, I just don't see him leaving. It would really have to be quite a catastrophe in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    I just don't see him leaving. It would really have to be quite a catastrophe in my opinion.
    We're working on it.

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    wait and see how ugly its going to get for those 4 or 5 games during the gold cup

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    I do not foresee Vanney (or anyone for that matter) getting sacked. The only way that happens is if we miss the playoffs, which is going to be near impossible since the majority of teams make the playoffs now. Even then, if we miss the playoffs I can just hear the excuses of injury or not being able to get in players in the spring. It feels like these guys are truly bomb-proof.

    Last year, I think I might of said that I don't think Vanney will leave unless Bez is gone. This year, after a total fucking joke of a CCL performance, followed by consistent mediocrity in the league and no fire beginning to develop under Vanney's seat at BMO, I just don't see him leaving. It would really have to be quite a catastrophe in my opinion.
    We didn't make it last year without the Gold Cup depleting our only serviceable players, there's no way we make it this year without any significant additions in the summer. The attitude is just bizarre - like they've already written this season off.

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    I've backed Vanney to the hilt over the years. He's a good coach and I he approaches the game in a way i admire. I like the way he thinks and speaks about the game.

    Having said all that. I think it might be time for him to go.

    If you are going to keep a coach long-long term there needs to be significant roster turn over every few years so the players are always fresh with the coach. If you are going to keep consistency with the roster and not make moves then you have to look at getting a new coach in to freshen things up. Everything is so pedestrian, languid etc etc at the moment, certain players look like they dont give a shit. I dont think Vanney can snap them out of this.

    I havent articulated my points very well here but I keep thinking about how Fergie would talk about moving big names out and bringing in younger hungrier players to keep things fresh and moving forward. Essentially so the players wouldn't go stale on him.

    Having said all that, the prospect of Curtis & Manning making a coaching hire scares the shit out of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Having said all that, the prospect of Curtis & Manning making a coaching hire scares the shit out of me.
    It’s only a matter of time until Curtis brings in his own guy. Someone with MLS experience. Someone with the same eye for talent he has and with experience from the RBNY Organization. He might not be working right now but neither was Curtis before he came here.

    The new guy knows how to turn it around and just one (more) transfer window is all it takes. He’s never been deal-shy either, the perfect candidate….

    TFC’s new coach:
    https://tinyurl.com/y4b9r7gv

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    It’s only a matter of time until Curtis brings in his own guy. Someone with MLS experience. Someone with the same eye for talent he has and with experience from the RBNY Organization. He might not be working right now but neither was Curtis before he came here.

    The new guy knows how to turn it around and just one (more) transfer window is all it takes. He’s never been deal-shy either, the perfect candidate….

    TFC’s new coach:
    https://tinyurl.com/y4b9r7gv
    Just need 4 or 5 guys...

  24. #1284
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post

    The new guy knows how to turn it around and just one (more) transfer window is all it takes. He’s never been deal-shy either, the perfect candidate….

    TFC’s new coach:
    https://tinyurl.com/y4b9r7gv
    People have been suggesting that we need to blow up the team, this guy could certainly do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Just need 4 or 5 guys...
    And he’d get that done in one window easy. Always making deals...

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    Default I'm not Vanney Out but Something Has to Change

    This team as it currently sits mentally does not know how to beat teams. That first goal in RSL is inexcusable. Yes, Vanney called it out as amateur. But the place to stop that is on the training ground.

    Getting in 2-3 players in the next window isn't going to change the fact that this team is a group of individuals who do not try hard enough & does not have a system that provides the comfort zone that allows them to succeed.


    As anybody who has read my posts in here knows, I like Vanney. I think he is one of the better tacticians in this league, one of the better coaches & wants to play a brand of soccer I enjoy. But...



    Like all coaches in this league, you prep for the next season starting in October/November. I believe he went into 2019 back in late December with the mindset that we were going to have Seba & VV & be playing a 3-5-2 / 4-4-2.

    He thought, and the brain trust thought, that Laurent Ciman was the answer to the back woes. He saw width coming from DeLeon & a player to hopefully come in that window. Well, Ciman has proven to be not enough & the width isn't there.

    Then, when VV left & Seba left, I think he had to adjust on the fly & made a poor choice to go for an attacking plan 4-3-3 / 4-1-4-1 rather than refocus on defensive stability in a true 4-2-3-1 where the DM's were locked down into a system of support & went with a defensive first mentality.

    We are trying really hard to recreate the attacking prowess of 2017 TFC when we really should be focusing on recreating the defensive prowess of 2017 TFC. I'm seeing a system of late when we go up in attack - there is less of the pass the ball around the back mentality. It is obvious they have worked on it in training but these guys like attack so of course they would do that. It is really hard midseason to focus on defence but the training sessions moving forward have to start doing that. There has to be a system for defence in place - we can't be all about what we do with the ball. The days of "well Drew will tell us where to go" are over. This should mean benching a few players who currently start but there is something about all this that indicates to me that certain players know how to go really well in training without thinking about how to play defensively in games - this is on the coaching staff.

    I think the brain trust gives Vanney until sometime in August to turn things around. BUT......if that happens, be prepared for not much to change until 2020 when Curtis' changes finally come through. The heir apparent is Robin Fraser who is both a Curtis man & a Vanney man - unless he goes to Cinci, he is likely to be the coach in 2020 if things do not change.
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 05-21-2019 at 09:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    We are trying really hard to recreate the attacking prowess of 2017 TFC when we really should be focusing on recreating the defensive prowess of 2017 TFC.
    We've given up 20 goals already in less than 1/3 of the season, in 2017 we gave up 37 over the whole league season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    This team as it currently sits mentally does not know how to beat teams. That first goal in RSL is inexcusable. Yes, Vanney called it out as amateur. But the place to stop that is on the training ground.

    Getting in 2-3 players in the next window isn't going to change the fact that this team is a group of individuals who do not try hard enough & does not have a system that provides the comfort zone that allows them to succeed.


    As anybody who has read my posts in here knows, I like Vanney. I think he is one of the better tacticians in this league, one of the better coaches & wants to play a brand of soccer I enjoy. But...



    Like all coaches in this league, you prep for the next season starting in October/November. I believe he went into 2019 back in late December with the mindset that we were going to have Seba & VV & be playing a 3-5-2 / 4-4-2.

    He thought, and the brain trust thought, that Laurent Ciman was the answer to the back woes. He saw width coming from DeLeon & a player to hopefully come in that window. Well, Ciman has proven to be not enough & the width isn't there.

    Then, when VV left & Seba left, I think he had to adjust on the fly & made a poor choice to go for an attacking plan 4-3-3 / 4-1-4-1 rather than refocus on defensive stability in a true 4-2-3-1 where the DM's were locked down into a system of support & went with a defensive first mentality.

    We are trying really hard to recreate the attacking prowess of 2017 TFC when we really should be focusing on recreating the defensive prowess of 2017 TFC. I'm seeing a system of late when we go up in attack - there is less of the pass the ball around the back mentality. It is obvious they have worked on it in training but these guys like attack so of course they would do that. It is really hard midseason to focus on defence but the training sessions moving forward have to start doing that. There has to be a system for defence in place - we can't be all about what we do with the ball. The days of "well Drew will tell us where to go" are over. This should mean benching a few players who currently start but there is something about all this that indicates to me that certain players know how to go really well in training without thinking about how to play defensively in games - this is on the coaching staff.

    I think the brain trust gives Vanney until sometime in August to turn things around. BUT......if that happens, be prepared for not much to change until 2020 when Curtis' changes finally come through. The heir apparent is Robin Fraser who is both a Curtis man & a Vanney man - unless he goes to Cinci, he is likely to be the coach in 2020 if things do not change.
    Agree with all this.

    I said it earlier that our talent is level is superior to a lot of other MLS teams who are doing average to 'good' (VWC, Orlando, Chicago, RSL, etc). The difference is that they are being coached and set up better than we are. They are adapting to the situations whereas we are 'going to play our game', even when it obviously is failing. Even worse is that I watched some of the shittier matches on the weekend and every team's defense has a defined shape and they are for the most part, hard to break down. There are boner plays for sure but you can see the organization in place. With us, it's all over the place. Guys are losing their man, getting wrong sided, pinching way too high, not keeping a good line, etc.

  29. #1289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Agree with all this.

    I said it earlier that our talent is level is superior to a lot of other MLS teams who are doing average to 'good' (VWC, Orlando, Chicago, RSL, etc). The difference is that they are being coached and set up better than we are. They are adapting to the situations whereas we are 'going to play our game', even when it obviously is failing. Even worse is that I watched some of the shittier matches on the weekend and every team's defense has a defined shape and they are for the most part, hard to break down. There are boner plays for sure but you can see the organization in place. With us, it's all over the place. Guys are losing their man, getting wrong sided, pinching way too high, not keeping a good line, etc.
    Actually, if you look at the LA Galaxy, their defense has exactly the same issues ours has... and they play a very similar style. Their defense is quite porous. The difference is that they have better defenders who manage to recover more often from the inevitable breakdowns on transition plus on offense they have more than one goal scorer.

    So if you are missing the players for your system, why not be pragmatic and mix up the system? Vanney did that two years ago, why not now?
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-21-2019 at 12:17 PM.

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    Isn't Fraser basically cut from the same cloth as Vanney? If we need fresh ideas, promoting from within makes no sense. I could see him as interim if things with Vanney became untenable and there was no quick solution, but full time?

 

 

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