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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    All mods see it here too, Pete. I'm sure reporting a mod to his buddy will go over real well.

    whats the poor form? That I PMed you and you ignored it, or that I brought it up?
    If you're having issues you should report them instead of waiting for another mod to happen by.

    Bringing up PMs in thread is poor form. As I've said above, there was nothing in it that even indicated you wanted a response but I only mention it since you want to make like I'm ignoring you.

    We need to continue this outside of the thread.
    Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 04-12-2016 at 07:59 AM.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    I'll be honest, I find an awful lot of time and effort is spent on these discussions about rules and regulations, league or club policies, and whatnot. That's fine and all, and I'm not knocking people for bringing it up at all, but I think we have to sorta stand back at times and look at our current situation at BMO Field and what we can or cannot do. What is happening elsewhere in the league is obviously worth paying attention to because it could effect us in the future, but I'd like to ask the question about the us the supporters of TFC specifically, and that is:

    Are we happy with the current set-up at BMO Field regarding smoke and even confetti or tifos?

    Because while I won't speak for anyone else, I think we have things pretty damned good as it is. I'm very cool with how smoke is handled especially. To me it's a completely logical compromise to have the groups in control but still a margin of oversight by the club. The same can be said for other elements of support like banners or flags, though admittedly, similar policies will be found across the league. I'm just thinking really of how the RPB execs at the time were able to negotiate and work out the plan for smoke and how we were able to walk away from the table with a system that benefited everyone - supporters and club.

    And even going back quite a few years now how we petitioned the club to make certain exemptions for the rules specifically for the south end. I'm writing this on my phone so I don't know who mentioned it, but someone posted about whether or not swearing in 112 would ever be reported, but luckily enough that's a question that will likely never arise because we came to an agreement with the club that exempts punishment in the south end for any of that. In fact, any visitor to the Supporters Section can see for themselves on any of the printed signs that standing, swearing, and general harmless shenanigans ARE allowed in that entire side of the stadium.

    The point to all this is that while we can talk about what-ifs and how things are going with other clubs, I at least feel TFC is managing to get things more right than wrong when it comes to what is allowed in the Supporters Section at BMO Field. In fact, now that I think of it, I'm not even sure what could be done, reasonably, to make things better.

    So again, the question to everyone here remains. Are we happy or unhappy with how things currently stand or do we want or demand any significant changes?
    I agree with what you say...I am very happy in recent years with how MLSE has dealt with flags, flares, swearing exc. They have been pretty calm about the whole thing, there was a few issues I disagreed with some years back, but things have changed. So if they remain like this, I can MLSE at BMO deal with these issues very well, something that I usually don't get to say much about MLSE but I can compliment MLSE on doing something right!!

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I was writing a long post, but I'll just summarize it instead.
    Dont be a hypocrite about the condescension. You've been one side moderating and throwing off smerky smart ass comments at anything that you don't agree with.

    150% on your side with this one
    Last edited by mook-life; 04-12-2016 at 09:11 AM.

  4. #154
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    http://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/featur...uZdrbRxzN5Hd4A

    D.C. United's hardcore fans are simmering after one of their own received a year-long ban, a sudden spike in longstanding supporter-club tension.
    WASHINGTON – There has always been two sides to D.C. United's crowds at RFK Stadium, the aging concrete coliseum that stands tall as the only venue to witness all 20 of Major League Soccer's seasons.
    RFK has a “quiet side,” the lower western stand that rises above the team benches, where families, youth teams and more casual spectators generally sit. And on the east lies the “loud side,” the home of United's main organized supporters groups, where the “harDCores” stand, sing, drink, curse and jump until the half-century-old bleacher seats beneath them bounce and sway like an old diving board.
    D.C. United was the first true home for supporter culture in MLS, thanks mainly to the capital city's multinational diversity and the club's uncommonly visionary approach to fan relations in the league's early years. Where other teams zoned in on the suburban “soccer mom” demographic and gazed upon rowdier supporters with fear and loathing, D.C. welcomed and nurtured supporters groups like the Screaming Eagles and Barra Brava, and were rewarded with the league's best ambiance in its first decade of existence.

    This new regime in the FO [front office] refuses to see us fans as a part of the club – which, before they wiped out a lot of the FO and rehired, they used to."

    - Matt Parsons, D.C. fan banned for one year

    But the year-long, league-wide stadium ban handed down on Monday to Matt Parsons, a prominent member of the District Ultras supporters group, has stunned and angered many of the Black-and-Red faithful and threatens to open up ugly new rifts between casual fans, the most devoted enthusiasts and the club's front office just as United's long-sought new stadium finally approaches reality.
    “I just think they thought this would scare enough people and we would move on, like your average consumer,” Parsons told FourFourTwo on Thursday. “But this new regime in the FO [front office] refuses to see us fans as a part of the club – which, before they wiped out a lot of the FO and rehired, they used to.
    “Now, we are just consumers like anyone else, the sense of community is gone, and all focus is on the new stadium, which is starting to seem like it might end up being more of a curse than a blessing if the current state of affairs are just signs of what's to come.”

    Tommy Gilligan-USA TODAY Sports
    United officials allege that Parsons was spotted by club employees, and recorded on video, setting off a “smoke grenade” in a tunnel under Independence Avenue SE that connects RFK's Lot 8 – home of D.C.'s famous pregame tailgating scene – to the area directly adjacent to the stadium before United's match vs. FC Dallas on March 26. Multiple sources have confirmed to FourFourTwo that the device in question was made by UK-based manufacturer Enola Gaye, a style commonly used by MLS supporters and others abroad.
    While the supporters groups have for years respected a ban on smoke devices inside the venue itself, they allege that United has suddenly expanded the technical definition of that banned space to “stadium property,” encompassing the enormous parking lots that flank the arena.
    “We are very focused on the safety of our fans – all of our fans,” said Lindsay Simpson, United's director of media & communications. “We have an obligation to each and every single person that enters this facility, whether it's the parking lots or the building itself, to give them the best possible experience. And we have an obligation to comply with the law.”

    In light of Parsons' leadership position in the group – he was one of a few supports group representatives given stadium credentials for the purpose of setting up installing banners and the like – the Ultras have also been slapped on the wrist, with the club revoking their clearance to use flags, flag poles and drums during Saturday's home match against the Vancouver Whitecaps. (United subsequently backtracked on drums, which will apparently be allowed after all.)“Public safety is our primary concern and firework restrictions are in place to reduce the likelihood of personal injury or property damage. Setting off firecrackers or any device with an inserted fuse is prohibited in the District of Columbia. Any firework found to be dangerous by the Fire Chief or the Office of the Fire Marshal to the safety of any person or property is also prohibited. Such devices are not allowed to be used in public assemblies without a valid permit issued by the Office of the Fire Marshal. Any prohibited devices found on site will be confiscated and destroyed.”

    “The idea that flags, drums, tifo and such are some sort of supporter privilege is ridiculous,” District Ultras leader Srdan Bastaic told FourFourTwo, lamenting what he sees as “suits” attempting to “turn MLS back to a '90s soccer mom league.”
    RECOMMENDED


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    If United officials envisioned their action as a deterrent to the fan base at large, as Parsons and others allege, the severity and summary nature of Parsons' punishment has thus far prompted exactly the opposite reaction. Condemnation has rained down on United and MLS from supporters across the league; the District Ultras are planning a protest for Saturday's game by leaving their section empty for the first half, and they say they have received pledges from other MLS supporters groups to take similar action in other stadiums.
    “For whatever reason, it feels like they have chosen to make a statement with this particular punishment,” said Paul Sotoudeh, a longtime member of the Screaming Eagles board of directors who serves as that group's game day operations coordinator.
    “It's a very severe – an extremely severe, frankly – penalty. And it's a penalty for something that, you look at the fan code of contact and you're really getting down into the weeds as to whether it's a violation or not.
    He continued: “It's never been enforced in this way before and they chose to enforce it in such a draconian kind of way up front, that really strikes me the wrong way and I think that's a lot of what people are reacting to.”
    Perhaps most frustratingly for many fans, Parsons and his fellow Ultras were in the midst of a “unity march” arranged to bring together all of the club's supporters groups, who have feuded intermittently in years past, in a combined show of support at a rough time for their team. That is also why club staff was filming the occasion, with plans to celebrate the drumming, chanting and various other displays of passion.

    Red Bulls fans with flares ahead of last year's playoff game vs. D.C. (fan Noah K. Murray-USA TODAY Sports)
    D.C. United is off to a bumpy start in 2016, with no wins and just three points from their first five league games as well as a brief and winless cameo in the CONCACAF Champions League's knockout stages. The quality of play has been uneven as a rejiggered roster comes to terms with itself and Argentine playmaker Luciano Acosta, the team's featured offseason acquisition, has spent most of the time on the substitute's bench despite big expectations on his arrival from Boca Juniors.
    United fans pay high ticket prices relative to the rest of MLS for a no-frills game-day environment at grungy, decaying RFK. Their team has been pragmatically constructed on a tight budget even relative to the league's salary-cap structure. The club has parted ways with many of its long-serving staffers in several waves of layoffs and firings, part of a sustained period of spending cuts as it seeks to stem the tide of annual losses under the terms of their lease with the city, which owns and operates the stadium.
    Longtime fans say the relationship between supporters groups and club officials has slipped from a family-style bond in the early years to something more akin to a strict consumer transaction under the current ownership group, led by Indonesian media magnate Erick Thohir and managing general partner Jason Levien. Add it all up, and you have a recipe for disgruntled supporters. This week's events seem to have pushed many to the breaking point.
    “Parsons will be first to tell you this is not about him, it's about this constant sanctions thing. It just hit the bottom now because it was in the parking lot, because D.C. went out of their way to do it,” said Bastaic.
    Over the years, MLS has struggled to find the middle ground between strict law and order at matches and celebrating their colorful supporter culture. Last month's incident in D.C. is the latest in a string of conflicts between supporters and clubs around MLS, including comparable situations in Los Angeles and Montreal.

    USA TODAY Sports
    Those rankled by United's actions readily point out how much of the league's promotional materials prominently feature exactly the kind of smoke device that brought on his ban.
    “We would have NEVER imagined the club would act like this,” Parsons said. “There are actual fireworks set off in the same parking lot after nearly every game. Smoke used to be [a] regular [occurrence] inside and outside of RFK for years.
    “Then add on top, the league's current-year commercial prominently featuring fans with smoke and flares … But obviously they pick and choose what rules they want to enforce and on whom they want to enforce them.”
    MLS officials say their clubs take the lead on establishing and enforcing local regulations. League vice president of communications Dan Courtemanche said “it is standard protocol for MLS to administer the league-wide ban for violations such as this.”
    “We've always been pretty clear that passionate fans and organized supporters groups are part of what makes attending a Major League Soccer match – or a soccer game throughout the world – so special,” Courtemanche told FourFourTwo this week. “They provide a festive environment that is unique to the sport. But we must have rules that strike the balance that provides our fans with this vibrant in-stadium experience while also ensuring that they have a safe environment.”


    ...unfortunately for MLS and D.C. United, this won't just get swept under the rug."

    - Matt Parsons

    Parsons said he plans to remain an active member of the District Ultras despite the ban, though he may relocate from the D.C. area for professional reasons later this year. He has received voluminous support from fellow fans and expects the issues his case has exposed will continue simmering around MLS.
    “There are groups from around the league currently in communication, planning coordinated league wide actions throughout the season,” he said. “So, unfortunately for MLS and D.C. United, this won't just get swept under the rug. They must have thought this would be a one-fan issue, but I am not the issue at all, the issue is the unfair treatment of the group and groups around the league.
    “I mean, I am glad it happened to me and not someone else who might be more upset by the ban. And I am glad it's bringing attention to the hypocrisy of the league and the issues facing supporters around the league.”

  5. #155
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    “We would have NEVER imagined the club would act like this,” Parsons said.
    I think that is key. What matters is that whatever rules in place are clear. Otherwise people have every right to be upset.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

  6. #156
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    I haven't finished reading this yet, but I'm curious if suddenly means suddenly that day or suddenly this season new management wants to manage differently:

    While the supporters groups have for years respected a ban on smoke devices inside the venue itself, they allege that United has suddenly expanded the technical definition of that banned space to “stadium property,” encompassing the enormous parking lots that flank the arena.



    Toronto 'til I die - but I think they're trying to kill me.

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    "In this case, Mr. Parsons has been banned from every MLS venue for an action that would not even violate the rules of over 2/3 of the venues he is banned from."

    Is Orlando one? Cause that kinda renders the hypocrisy smoke in promotion angle toothless.
    Last edited by Red4ever; 04-12-2016 at 08:34 PM.

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    You're just referencing the Rachel picture... But MLS advertised supporters and use of smoke in many forms, and they use footage from a lot of teams coast to coast. Individual teams have stopped doing it where it's not allowed, but MLS hasn't, thus the hypocrisy claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    You're just referencing the Rachel picture... But MLS advertised supporters and use of smoke in many forms, and they use footage from a lot of teams coast to coast. Individual teams have stopped doing it where it's not allowed, but MLS hasn't, thus the hypocrisy claims.
    I am. I hope we can stop using the Rachel picture as a basis then. I've heard this, but I haven't seen any examples given other than Rachel. I certainly haven't seen any this season.

    How many teams have a set up similar to us where using it through the club is okay but not illegally brought in? How do expect video editors to know the difference?
    Last edited by Red4ever; 04-12-2016 at 09:18 PM.

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    Assuming for the sake or argument that MLS are hypocrites on the promotional materials front - what is the end game? To then claim ignorance of what their policies are regarding smoke and/or pyro, because of that?

    MLS are the one stakeholder here who can afford to be hypocrites, because they technically have all the power over their own policies. We should demand clarity on what those policies (and the related punishments) are, but special pleading because of hypocritical promotional materials is going to have a net effect of zero, unless all you're aiming for is a moral victory.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red4ever View Post
    I am. I hope we can stop using the Rachel picture as a basis then. I've heard this, but I haven't seen any examples given other than Rachel. I certainly haven't seen any this season.

    How many teams have a set up similar to us where using it through the club is okay but not illegally brought in? How do expect video editors to know the difference?
    You're right I guess, there's no real way of telling if it's allowed or not allowed other than asking the club. But we all know that smoke happens in marches for every club in every city. I think the anger is more based on the fact that they picked one guy, out of no where, and gave him a very hefty spanking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Assuming for the sake or argument that MLS are hypocrites on the promotional materials front - what is the end game? To then claim ignorance of what their policies are regarding smoke and/or pyro, because of that?

    MLS are the one stakeholder here who can afford to be hypocrites, because they technically have all the power over their own policies. We should demand clarity on what those policies (and the related punishments) are, but special pleading because of hypocritical promotional materials is going to have a net effect of zero, unless all you're aiming for is a moral victory.
    Big difference between what the club can say to a few behind the scenes and what the club can come out and say publicly. TFC can't come out and say smoke on ex grounds is okay because that's not their decision, TFC security are involved from x feet away from the stadium and inside the rest are Toronto cops who have generally been very good the past year or two. At the end of the day the Toronto cops are more for crowd control than actual enforcement of everything, as long as we are not endangering others they let things slide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red4ever View Post
    ^^^^
    *shrug*, oh well. A repost. Oh no. lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    You're right I guess, there's no real way of telling if it's allowed or not allowed other than asking the club. But we all know that smoke happens in marches for every club in every city. I think the anger is more based on the fact that they picked one guy, out of no where, and gave him a very hefty spanking.
    My anger is at the fact they had several ways to advise against his action and then state they had done so to media afterwards. From experience we both know marches like this that involve all groups don't happen out of the blue. If the new management wanted to enact the rules that were always there in the first place its their right but to ignore the avenues of communication available to them means they deserve all the backlash they are getting.

    I mean, didn't they(MLS or DC?) have cameras on site? Or did the cameras meet them as they got to the stadium? Either way, completely preventable.

    I can't even comment on the weight of the punishment. It shouldn't have come to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pint View Post
    Big difference between what the club can say to a few behind the scenes and what the club can come out and say publicly. TFC can't come out and say smoke on ex grounds is okay because that's not their decision, TFC security are involved from x feet away from the stadium and inside the rest are Toronto cops who have generally been very good the past year or two. At the end of the day the Toronto cops are more for crowd control than actual enforcement of everything, as long as we are not endangering others they let things slide.
    I don't know. I think this situation sets the perfect time to press for an official statement from TFC no different than the one that came too late from DC. That's the issue for me.

    They don't have to condone, they CAN'T enforce outside the grounds and have no responsibility but to think how many people don't even know outside of these circles what authority stands where....

    The means to inform BEFORE an incident is available.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Assuming for the sake or argument that MLS are hypocrites on the promotional materials front - what is the end game? To then claim ignorance of what their policies are regarding smoke and/or pyro, because of that?

    MLS are the one stakeholder here who can afford to be hypocrites, because they technically have all the power over their own policies. We should demand clarity on what those policies (and the related punishments) are, but special pleading because of hypocritical promotional materials is going to have a net effect of zero, unless all you're aiming for is a moral victory.

    This resonates well and reflects my own gripe with the MLS and various front offices. We need to now know the rules because we don't want to be subjected to some arbitrary ban without any process for a fair appeal or review of the event.

    Right now things are coming down hard and fast on all supporters and there isn't much clarification about what the actual rules and punishments are. We all know what is illegal in the stadium and there is this real grey zone outside the grounds, but if rules start magically being created and applied to actions outside the stadium then we need to know and have it defined clearly. By 'we' I mean all supporters for all teams.
    Road Trips: July 7 2007 Chicago, July 22nd 2007 Columbus, August 11 2007 NY, October 13 2007 LA, March 29 2008 Columbus, May 24th 2008 DC, May 26 2008 Montreal, June 28th 2008 NE, March 7-11-14 2009 Charleston, March 28 2009 Columbus, April 10 2010 New England, May 12 2010 Montreal, April 7 2012 Montreal, March 16 2013 Montreal , June 3 2014 Montreal, March 14 2015 Columbus

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    I think I know Matt Parsons. Anyone know if this the same guy who has played in numerous DC and Richmond punk bands?

    I feel really bad for him. I don't' know what I would do if I was banned from football a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think there are any personal jabs, is there Red? We just have a disagree of opinion.. (Again :P)
    To answer your question Cal - I feel that there is no longer any comradery in the group. It claims to be independent from the club and doesn't take any finances from the club to fund game day experience for members, mean while it works very much on the "you say jump, I say how high" mentality. The club smoke is another thing we'll disagree on. The group will claim that it fought the FO hard to get the smoke approved, but to me, it was the FO that played the SG, by letting us have smoke, but the club says who, when, where, and how it's deployed.

    You probably dont don't know this story, and I'll gladly share it with you off the boards, but the club toon away RPBs smoke during the Red Bulls game last year. The one we clinched playoffs on... But like I said, long story.
    just reading thru all of it....I fear MLS in the early days when it needed any support they were all nice and friendly but now
    our commissioner reminds me of 'I'm the boss Gary Bettman' (lawyers not fans), and they want to put us in our place as they are very owner delegated and feel they can get by without the traditional supporter fandom . PS it is sad to see a few friends leave as you Ivy , you are dedicated supporter , that defines a positive attitude game day without the BS . Always one that could agree to disagree and not take it personal . Tip of the hat .
    ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pint View Post
    Beer solves that... unless you get angry about talking about beer.

    can't ever see that happening ....🙊
    ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana

 

 

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