Match Day 4 - Things to Do in Denver When You're Red- TFC @ Colorado Sat April 2 8 pm

[Fort York Redcoat]

This is silly. So many people want to tell people how to be fans on here. Take a step back OT.

People's eternal optimism about an objectively poor start to the season could be called trolling as well. He has every right to vent his frustration.

Hold on. There's no instruction in that post. There's explanation I would agree with. If we only see you when the team is losing we're never celebrating with you. That's a fact.

I won't say that's trolling, just...unappealing.

[MightyDM]

I have watched all the games this year. We played well in three and not very well in one. The team is organized, Bradley is far more disciplined, and the defensive counter attack style is working. Vanney has shown far better coaching acumen this year. There is no question that we deserved more out of the NYCFC and KC matches - even the referee admitted he missed the blatant handball by Villa when he scored. Without that, it's 2-1. One could argue that against SKC we should have changed tactics after they brought Brad Davis on as he was making mincemeat out of Endoh, although Endoh almost scored. And it was down that side that the goal came. Still, it was an obvious foul by Davis on Morrow, one that will be called 99 times out of one hundred, even in MLS. So that's two games in a row where the team played well but lost a goal on a bad call by the referee - I think it's fair play for supporters to complain about the refereeing in those circumstances.

seven points from those three games would have been a fair indication of the team's quality in the games and of Vanneys tactics.

Colorado is different. Several players did not have particularly good games - MB included - and it looked like we were running in sand a bit. Despite that, and even with ten men, we had several moments where the game was ours for the taking and we might have scored.

All in all, not bad for a four game road trip and the best quality we have had for some time, likely ever. A cause for celebration, not poorly put blanket negativity.

There are some warning signs:

Vanney's failure to adjust in the SKC game. This cost us dearly last year against Montreal;
The lack of a back up striker. We are really missing Gomez and/ or Moore, no matter what people like to say about Moore;
Allied to that are two things - Endoh and Babouli are not ready to be full time starters in this league, and with Jozy up front we need to change from an effective 4-3-3 in which Gio does not have to defend to some variant of a 4-4-2 in which he or Jozy does have to defend;
Morrow has not been himself and has consistently been our worst defender, when last year was the best. It is very odd and I cannot find any way to account for it, unless he is on his way out.

[jazzy]

Yup, no one else can score on this team, no matter how good of chance they have. We really need another scorer desperately. We have a lot of guys who can play, but can't finish. If the plan is to win or at least compete this season, I don't think we should be starting Lovitz/Mo with Gio in any situation, or against any team, even if that team is a weaker one. A DP starting on the bench for either of these two(or Endoh) is crazy. I feel like the team is in two minds right now, with the first being to integrate the young guys, against teams we "should" beat, and the second is trying to win the league. Its hard to do both, especially when these guys aren't ready, or just not good enough for a team that expects to win. I think that is the question that has to be asked, are we trying to win this season, or just trying to develop players, because its hard to do both. The lack of quality, and experience is costing us points, as much as the refs are.

the formation and players Gio is forced to play with is why we will eventually lose Gio . I say maybe this will be his last season . The team is not treating him as the MLS superstar he is and creating a team around him however difficult that is . Maybe that is unrealistic but sports is never rational anyway .
.

[Red4ever]

If you only post when the team is down, that says something about you more than it says anything about the team.

You make a generalization about anothet users posts that isnt found in fact, just in opinion. Then you related it to the character of the poster.

Youre a mod and you should know better. Youve done this before.

Hold on. There's no instruction in that post. There's explanation I would agree with. If we only see you when the team is losing we're never celebrating with you. That's a fact.

I won't say that's trolling, just...unappealing.

See above.

[jazzy]

I have watched all the games this year. We played well in three and not very well in one. The team is organized, Bradley is far more disciplined, and the defensive counter attack style is working. Vanney has shown far better coaching acumen this year. There is no question that we deserved more out of the NYCFC and KC matches - even the referee admitted he missed the blatant handball by Villa when he scored. Without that, it's 2-1. One could argue that against SKC we should have changed tactics after they brought Brad Davis on as he was making mincemeat out of Endoh, although Endoh almost scored. And it was down that side that the goal came. Still, it was an obvious foul by Davis on Morrow, one that will be called 99 times out of one hundred, even in MLS. So that's two games in a row where the team played well but lost a goal on a bad call by the referee - I think it's fair play for supporters to complain about the refereeing in those circumstances.

seven points from those three games would have been a fair indication of the team's quality in the games and of Vanneys tactics.

Colorado is different. Several players did not have particularly good games - MB included - and it looked like we were running in sand a bit. Despite that, and even with ten men, we had several moments where the game was ours for the taking and we might have scored.

All in all, not bad for a four game road trip and the best quality we have had for some time, likely ever. A cause for celebration, not poorly put blanket negativity.

There are some warning signs:

Vanney's failure to adjust in the SKC game. This cost us dearly last year against Montreal;
The lack of a back up striker. We are really missing Gomez and/ or Moore, no matter what people like to say about Moore;
Allied to that are two things - Endoh and Babouli are not ready to be full time starters in this league, and with Jozy up front we need to change from an effective 4-3-3 in which Gio does not have to defend to some variant of a 4-4-2 in which he or Jozy does have to defend;
Morrow has not been himself and has consistently been our worst defender, when last year was the best. It is very odd and I cannot find any way to account for it, unless he is on his way out.

Perfect summary . I'm also concerned with what I thought would be at least competitive , entertaining football , finally , win or lose . being thrown to the wind by the MLS leadership . They fail to really understand the game . and how the ref's AND invisible disciplinary committee's behind the scenes suspensions, are hugely detrimental to the game itself . For them IT's simply expansion and $$$ .

[Fort York Redcoat]

You make a generalization about anothet users posts that isnt found in fact, just in opinion. Then you related it to the character of the poster.

Youre a mod and you should know better. Youve done this before.



See above.

Post history isn't fact? Since when?

[Red4ever]

Post history isn't fact? Since when?

He keeps track of every post the man makes?
And even if he did, they're all trashing the team?
Under who's definition of trashing?
And finially is trashing trolling? No.

So OT is once again, making poor posts.

[backbeat]

He keeps track of every post the man makes?
And even if he did, they're all trashing the team?
Under who's definition of trashing?
And finially is trashing trolling? No.

So OT is once again, making poor posts.

actually i've notice the exact same thing - the only time i see his posts are when he has something negative to say - i can recall periods where the team was doing ok and nothing from him. as soon as there is a slip, up he pops highlighting it.

I have zero problem with constructive criticism but imo i'd call his posts trolling - and i could care less if he's been a season ticket holder since day one, it matters not.

[Fort York Redcoat]

He keeps track of every post the man makes?
And even if he did, they're all trashing the team?
Under who's definition of trashing?
And finially is trashing trolling? No.

So OT is once again, making poor posts.

Red, your concern is not being ignored.

And as for keeping track, dude, that's what we do.

[Oldtimer]

actually i've notice the exact same thing - the only time i see his posts are when he has something negative to say - i can recall periods where the team was doing ok and nothing from him. as soon as there is a slip, up he pops highlighting it.

I have zero problem with constructive criticism but imo i'd call his posts trolling - and i could care less if he's been a season ticket holder since day one, it matters not.

Thank-you. I see I'm not the only one who has noticed this.

[molenshtain]

I think everyone's picked up on Chevy's posting habits at this point.

[Initial B]

What posting habits?

[Fort York Redcoat]

I think everyone's picked up on Chevy's posting habits at this point.

Whoah now. There's more than one. It's not like a molenshtain!


Let's all get back to the game that was.

Thanks.

[jloome]

Whoah now. There's more than one. It's not like a molenshtain!


Let's all get back to the game that was.

Thanks.

So Cheyrou's sending off was only his second in 17 years.

[Fort York Redcoat]

So Cheyrou's sending off was only his second in 17 years.

I never got to use this emoji before. Thanks for that stat! Boy Scout Cheyrou!

[jloome]

I never got to use this emoji before. Thanks for that stat! Boy Scout Cheyrou!

Yeah, I know, eh? Both for yellow accumulation, so possibly both arguable. One of them, anyway.

[notthesun]

Yeah, I know, eh? Both for yellow accumulation, so possibly both arguable. One of them, anyway.

Speaking of possibly arguable...

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/717415942746193920

[OgtheDim]

Tim speaks!

[Richard]

So Cheyrou's sending off was only his second in 17 years.

That's insane, especially for a DM, for shame MLS ref for shame. This guys knows how to tackle.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

That's insane, especially for a DM, for shame MLS ref for shame. This guys knows how to tackle.

Hes a box to box but more AM than DM if I'm not mistaken

[jloome]

Hes a box to box but more AM than DM if I'm not mistaken

Yeah, box-to-box playmaker. He was never that fast to cover ground well defensively, and had someone covering behind usually. He had one year in France playing mostly defensively and it didn't go that well, he had ten yellows. But no reds, and no suspensions. His only suspension was for two yellows in, like, 2007 or something (I don't remember the year.) That includes a ton of Champions League games.

But the fucking American know-it-all MLS fans will shout you down on any forum if you suggest there is a) no actual studs rule b)an acceptable way to slide tackle c)No way to jump for a ball without raising your arms slightly. The last few days, in debate terms, have driven me a little barmy. One guy told me that the EPL sets a bad example by letting tugging and pushing go, and that if I think Laba's slide tackle was actually not more than a yellow, if that, I 'must yearn to go back to the days of leg breakers in this league.'

It's like a football league for daycare workers or something.

[OgtheDim]

..
But the fucking American know-it-all MLS fans will shout you down on any forum if you suggest there is a) no actual studs rule b)an acceptable way to slide tackle c)No way to jump for a ball without raising your arms slightly. The last few days, in debate terms, have driven me a little barmy. One guy told me that the EPL sets a bad example by letting tugging and pushing go, and that if I think Laba's slide tackle was actually not more than a yellow, if that, I 'must yearn to go back to the days of leg breakers in this league.'

It's like a football league for daycare workers or something.

Monday was not a good day for soccer twitter.

Not just the fans, and not just Americans. Some media guys I generally respect have been aggressive towards anybody questioning studs showing = red. It got to the point where I actually thanked Matt Doyle for not being a dick about this but just quietly stating he thought these were reds and a needed change.

There is a certain group of people in North America who think that MLS is a dangerous league and want something to change that. OK, but that doesn't mean every change is good.

When you attempt to go through what will happen if studs showing is banned, they shout "ZAKUAINI"


If you can't show studs at all, you can't make a tackle at speed. We then get into a basketball situation where you an run beside somebody or you can stand still but you can't run towards and tackle while they can run towards you. That's not how the game is played.

Interviews with TFC yesterday indicated TFC isn't harping on this. They accept that there is a change in how tackles are being called. The subtle point mentioned is both the players and the refs are adjusting. Some/many of the refs have gone too far. We will see if PRO dials it back a bit.

[C.Ronaldo]

couldnt the refs get these call out of their system in preseason?

[Richard]

Its a matter of skill, a tackle can be crunching and still be legal, its when you got thugs not knowing how to tackle properly, that's what MLS should be looking at.

A well executed tackle should leave the other player shaking like a leaf, that's the point, scare the other player into dribbling and doing something with the ball.

[vortexdr]

Eh I guess they want defenders to use harsh language in order to get the ball...

Honestly this has me confused. You have sports such as the NHL and NFL with massive concussion and injury problems and for some reason North American's are wanting to reinvent football?? Makes it real hard to take the league serious.

If they are so concerned about player safety should they not first ban any team that is using turf?

[ag futbol]

Bah, I'm certainly one who prefers the continental style of play compared to what you see in the EPL, but this interpretation of the rules is a bastardized way of looking at things.

There are so many other areas they need to look at if they truly want to clean up play. And beyond all else they need to clean up the officiating in general, it is truly ruining this league.

Personally I would love it if a few of the stronger teams decamped from this bullshit single entity and started their own thing.

[C.Ronaldo]

Bah, I'm certainly one who prefers the continental style of play compared to what you see in the EPL, but this interpretation of the rules is a bastardized way of looking at things.

There are so many other areas they need to look at if they truly want to clean up play. And beyond all else they need to clean up the officiating in general, it is truly ruining this league.

Personally I would love it if a few of the stronger teams decamped from this bullshit single entity and started their own thing.

the guys getting the red cards weren't even EPLers or Americans

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Yeah, box-to-box playmaker. He was never that fast to cover ground well defensively, and had someone covering behind usually. He had one year in France playing mostly defensively and it didn't go that well, he had ten yellows. But no reds, and no suspensions. His only suspension was for two yellows in, like, 2007 or something (I don't remember the year.) That includes a ton of Champions League games.

But the fucking American know-it-all MLS fans will shout you down on any forum if you suggest there is a) no actual studs rule b)an acceptable way to slide tackle c)No way to jump for a ball without raising your arms slightly. The last few days, in debate terms, have driven me a little barmy. One guy told me that the EPL sets a bad example by letting tugging and pushing go, and that if I think Laba's slide tackle was actually not more than a yellow, if that, I 'must yearn to go back to the days of leg breakers in this league.'

It's like a football league for daycare workers or something.

Does feel like these people have never seen a game outside of MLS/EPL

[spark]

But the fucking American know-it-all MLS fans will shout you down on any forum if you suggest there is a) no actual studs rule b)an acceptable way to slide tackle c)No way to jump for a ball without raising your arms slightly. The last few days, in debate terms, have driven me a little barmy. One guy told me that the EPL sets a bad example by letting tugging and pushing go, and that if I think Laba's slide tackle was actually not more than a yellow, if that, I 'must yearn to go back to the days of leg breakers in this league.'

LOL wtf

Weird sidenote - is there anywhere else in world sports like MLS where there are fans/supporters of the league? As in - when you criticize the actual league a whole segment gets their panties in a knot and super defensive? I find in MLS it's a whole other level than other sports/leagues.

[notthesun]

When you attempt to go through what will happen if studs showing is banned, they shout "ZAKUANI"

I absolutely hate this. You're going to point to the single worst tackle in all of MLS history, a freak event that's never been replicated, and that happened 5 years ago no less, as evidence that a complete shutdown on any contact-with-studs tackle is necessary? It's totally irrational.

This new rule is supposed to be for player protection. So show me actual evidence that players needed more protection. Tell me why this is actually necessary. Show me data that proves there's been a rising trend in MLS of players being injured from studs-up or reckless tackles, or that MLS players have suffered more injuries from these kinds of tackles than in the EPL, Championship, Serie A, etc., or even just that there are more studs-up tackles in MLS. What's more, show me what was so bad about 2015, because this is a sudden and dramatic shift in interpretation that you would assume is in response to a recent problem having emerged. We are the only league in the world calling fouls like this, surely there has to be some legitimate reason for it besides "we once had a bad tackle". All that I've seen as justification for the new standard is PRO saying before the start of the season that they identified all the warranted red cards from last year and saw that MLS refs didn't issue a red card on 28% of them, which doesn't help because I don't know what they consider a warranted red card to be, or how many of those 28% missed were tackles, or how many of them led to injury (ignoring of course the fact that they missed 28% is just because they have shitty refs).

At this point you can already hear the response: "Injury is irrelevant, this is a preventative measure!". On a micro, individual decision level, sure, a player doesn't need to get injured for someone to earn a red. But on a macro level, if they're handing out red cards for tackles with studs up because they're dangerous, then it follows that players on the receiving end of them should have a high risk of being injured. So if we've reached the end of the season and they've handed out more red cards than ever because of this new policy on studs-up tackles and barely any players were injured from them, then I'm sorry, but you're not preventing anything, you're just ruining games.

Or you just get people shouting "You asked for this! We've all wanted better protection for star players, now you're getting it, what's the problem?". In case nobody has noticed, star players weren't getting cleaned out left and right by high-flying two-footed challenges everywhere (I didn't get the impression anyone was... again, show me the data). How many crunchers was Giovinco on the end of last year? Nothing horrible really comes to mind. It was my impression the "protection" everybody wanted for star players was the constant holding, shirt-pulling, shoving, and minor fouling that goes on to stop them and slow them down. PRO has obviously not done a damn thing about this, and it's probably the one thing they should focus on if MLS wants to do something to improve the product on the pitch. Burling should have been sent off in this game for grabbing Giovinco after getting beat just as stoppage time began, since he was already on a yellow for - you guessed it - persistent infringement, but the ref just awards a foul and carries on.