MLS v.s. Serie A

[james]

jesus christ no one is saying our top teams are better than their top teams. It's just a very top heavy league and most of the teams in MLS wouldn't look out of place in the lower tier of Serie A.

to be honest most countries pro Leagues in Europe are top heavy. Only a few countries can have competitive through out the League or have a 2nd division with clubs that can still attract rather big attendances and still compete at a high standard. Germany and England have the strongest top 4 divisions in the world. Most clubs in other leagues in 2nd divisions play in front of 3,000 fans in what would be a decaying old small stadium. That said in some cases I still wouldn't say MLS teams would beat some of these clubs, I still think MLS doesn't have strong enough balance through out its teams to compete at a high level. We have seen some MLS clubs struggle in Concacaf Champions League vs some clubs from small countries with small support, small decaying stadiums without much money still destroy some MLS clubs.

[TheGoodson]

Really? how many playoff teams from last year would struggle in serie A, and why? Where in say LA's lineup, or Dallas' or even ours come up short against the lower tier serie A lineups?

Talent overall on the lower Serie A is more balanced then any of the squads you mentioned. Yes we in the MLS have more "stars", but those teams would get their ass handed to them as the soccer IQ and tactics are soo far superior to what we see in this league. As people mentioned before maybe we should shoot to compete with Mexican teams before the comparison with any of the top 5 leagues in Europe

[molenshtain]

Talent overall on the lower Serie A is more balanced then any of the squads you mentioned. Yes we in the MLS have more "stars", but those teams would get their ass handed to them as the soccer IQ and tactics are soo far superior to what we see in this league. As people mentioned before maybe we should shoot to compete with Mexican teams before the comparison with any of the top 5 leagues in Europe

Any of the half-decent Mexican teams would kick the shit out of the bottom half Italian teams. The italian league is also played in such a vacuum that any team playing any type of modern tactic at a high speed already has a leg-up.

You have to understand that people like Juraj Kucka are starting routinely for Milan now. Like, that's FUCKED. That league is so, so bad. Guys like Fabian Castillo would look like world-beaters week in week out against a lot of those teams due to how many favorable match-ups he'd get.

[ensco]

Sampdoria is 16th in Serie A - let's have a look at their top players:



Roberto Soriano is an Italian MNT comer. 23 years old. Going somewhere like Inter for 10M euros or more.
http://www.espnfc.us/internazionale/...-coy-on-future
Nobody like him in MLS.

Luis Muriel. 24 years old. Colombian striker. Frequently rumoured to be moving to a big team (Liverpool often mentioned). Also easily worth 10M or more in transfer value.
Nobody like him in MLS.

Fernando, Brazilian midfielder. 23 years old. Came on an 8M euro transfer.
Nobody like him in MLS.

Ricardo Alvarez. 27 year old AM, Argentine MNT player owned by Inter (on loan via Sunderland). Subject of a dispute re whether Sunderland actually own him and owe Inter 10M euros for him.
Nobody like him in MLS ex Giovinco.

Joaquin Correa. 21 year old AM, Argentine MNT player transferred to Sampdoria for 6.5M 18 months ago.
Nobody like him in MLS.

Andrea Ranocchia, 28 year old defender owned by Inter, loaned to Sampdoria. Liverpool apparently offered 9M euros for him in January.
Nobody like him in MLS.



____________


I do not see how anyone can seriously argue that any MLS team can compete with a Sampdoria.

[molenshtain]

and a 36 year old Massimo Maccerone is the best player and leading scorer for Empoli, who are ninth. was Maccerone ever as good as Di Viao? How would he do in this league right now?

You're also vastly overstating the quality of a couple of those guys. Lautaro Acosta, Castillo, Mauro Diaz, Lucas Melano are all equally as good and young as Correa, even if they're less hyped. There's probably a bunch of other guys I'm missing too.

Alvarez is terrible. Weren't you the one saying how bad Sunderland was? he's so bad they had to get him off the squad as soon as they got a look at him up close. The majority of Dp's and probably and probably a bunch of other guys in this league are equally as talented.

Muriel isn't even better than a fit Altidore. Any player who comes over from South America and shows off any sign of athleticism gets hyped to shit in Italy. There's a reason he went from Udinese to Samp and not somewhere more meaningful.

[ensco]

Sorry, arguing they are all overhyped (they probably are) doesn't change the fact that Italy has a hundred guys similar to the ones I named, and MLS has zero.

I'm done.

[TFC1154ever]

We have one. His name is Giovinco

[ensco]

We have one. His name is Giovinco

Right!

[TheGoodson]

Any of the half-decent Mexican teams would kick the shit out of the bottom half Italian teams. The italian league is also played in such a vacuum that any team playing any type of modern tactic at a high speed already has a leg-up.

You have to understand that people like Juraj Kucka are starting routinely for Milan now. Like, that's FUCKED. That league is so, so bad. Guys like Fabian Castillo would look like world-beaters week in week out against a lot of those teams due to how many favorable match-ups he'd get.

I'm sorry, but with all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't know that soccer was more of a track meet and then an actual game of skill and tactics. Serie A is the most tactical league in the world, the closest is the Bundesliga. It's funny that people think Serie A is boring cause it is a low scoring, but if you can play in Serie A you can play anywhere and not the other way around.

FYI Mexican teams and players are almost as overrated as USMNT players. Your North American bias is quite obvious. Go watch Serie A games and then watch a Mexican game and then MLS games of the equivalent teams and if you can still come back and say that those other teams are 'better' at winning matches then come back and have a chat as I'm not sure you are watching

[Hugh Jazz]

I think this would be evident if we were ever able to see an actual competitive match between an MLS side and a Serie A one. There is also a big difference in the level of coaching between the two leagues, I doubt there is a Sarri or Di Francesco popping up in MLS anytime soon.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Just before this thread gets any more disrespectful I'll genuinely ask instead of doing the minute or so research:

Any difference between squad numbers and schedule between the leagues?

I remember in the countless comparisons in the old days reading there was an inconsistency there.

[burlington Red]

I'm sorry, but with all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't know that soccer was more of a track meet and then an actual game of skill and tactics. Serie A is the most tactical league in the world, the closest is the Bundesliga. It's funny that people think Serie A is boring cause it is a low scoring, but if you can play in Serie A you can play anywhere and not the other way around.

FYI Mexican teams and players are almost as overrated as USMNT players. Your North American bias is quite obvious. Go watch Serie A games and then watch a Mexican game and then MLS games of the equivalent teams and if you can still come back and say that those other teams are 'better' at winning matches then come back and have a chat as I'm not sure you are watching

it's funny you say that, out of the top 5 leagues in Europe for 2014-2015 season, it was the highest for goals scored:

Serie A- 1024 (2.72)
La Liga- 1009 (2.66)
EPL- 975 (2.57)
Ligue1- 947 (2.49)
Bundesliga- 814 (2.66)

[TFC Tifoso]

I'm sorry, but with all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't know that soccer was more of a track meet and then an actual game of skill and tactics. Serie A is the most tactical league in the world, the closest is the Bundesliga. It's funny that people think Serie A is boring cause it is a low scoring, but if you can play in Serie A you can play anywhere and not the other way around.

FYI Mexican teams and players are almost as overrated as USMNT players. Your North American bias is quite obvious. Go watch Serie A games and then watch a Mexican game and then MLS games of the equivalent teams and if you can still come back and say that those other teams are 'better' at winning matches then come back and have a chat as I'm not sure you are watching

it's funny you say that, out of the top 5 leagues in Europe for 2014-2015 season, it was the highest for goals scored:

Serie A- 1024 (2.72)
La Liga- 1009 (2.66)
EPL- 975 (2.57)
Ligue1- 947 (2.49)
Bundesliga- 814 (2.66)

was just going to make a similar comment as burlington Red......people who still think Serie A is "low scoring" and "boring" either haven't watched Serie A since the 70's or are just being willfully ignorant.....bit of a sidetrack to the conversation, but definitely worth noting....

Serie A has a few things going against it today (mainly regarding infastructure and stadiums) but scoring is not one of them.....

[TheGoodson]

it's funny you say that, out of the top 5 leagues in Europe for 2014-2015 season, it was the highest for goals scored:

Serie A- 1024 (2.72)
La Liga- 1009 (2.66)
EPL- 975 (2.57)
Ligue1- 947 (2.49)
Bundesliga- 814 (2.66)

was just going to make a similar comment as burlington Red......people who still think Serie A is "low scoring" and "boring" either haven't watched Serie A since the 70's or are just being willfully ignorant.....bit of a sidetrack to the conversation, but definitely worth noting....

Serie A has a few things going against it today (mainly regarding infastructure and stadiums) but scoring is not one of them.....

Agreed, that is a very old stereotype...

[molenshtain]

I'm sorry, but with all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't know that soccer was more of a track meet and then an actual game of skill and tactics. Serie A is the most tactical league in the world, the closest is the Bundesliga. It's funny that people think Serie A is boring cause it is a low scoring, but if you can play in Serie A you can play anywhere and not the other way around.

FYI Mexican teams and players are almost as overrated as USMNT players. Your North American bias is quite obvious. Go watch Serie A games and then watch a Mexican game and then MLS games of the equivalent teams and if you can still come back and say that those other teams are 'better' at winning matches then come back and have a chat as I'm not sure you are watching

Sorry, can you point to some recent examples of serie A players leaving to go succeed elsewhere? Serie A has an absolutely awful track record of exporting talent to other leagues over the last century, so that's patently not true. Michael Cox had a good article about that not so long ago. This is the league that made Balotelli look like the best young player in the world. Think about that.

It's high scoring, sure, but that has a lot to do with the defending being horrible. The league lags seriously behind in coaching and tactics in comparison to the rest of the world. Which Italian managers come across to you as tactical geniuses? Mancini? Capello? Trap? Spalletti? Allegri? Conte? Ancellotti? not a single one would say tactics is their strong suit. They (italians) refuse to play with width and at pace, and they get crushed for it whenever they come up against it. That, and none of them have any money so they can't buy or produce talent at a consistent rate anymore. Honestly have you watched a Bundesliga game or a Premier league game recently? It kind of is a track meet. In a match these days players run at least twice what they did a decade ago. If there's any misconception about the league it's that it's "tactical". That implies an ability to stay up to date with modern trends. In terms of tactics, the Italians haven't progressed past 1995.

I watch all three leagues at least semi-routinely. The quality of the average italian player has monumentally decreased over the last century, and with reduced spending power they can't bring in top talent from south America or the smaller european countries anymore. The league is a shell of it's former self. Stop acting like it's still the nineties.

[TFC Tifoso]

Sorry, can you point to some recent examples of serie A players leaving to go succeed elsewhere? Serie A has an absolutely awful track record of exporting talent to other leagues over the last century, so that's patently not true. Michael Cox had a good article about that not so long ago. This is the league that made Balotelli look like the best young player in the world. Think about that.

That's a poor point, because most Italian players CHOOSE not to leave Serie A.....but any top Italian player in the last 10-15 years could've had a spot on any team in the world.....Totti, Del Piero, Pirlo, etc.....hell, Buffon CHOSE, again, in the prime of his career to play in 2nd division....Italain players lack of record abroad has only to do with their own commitment to their domestic league.....the Balotelli example is a poor one because imo he's always been overhyped, and has looked equally as poor now in his return to Italy as he has on his other teams.....and besides, if you want to you can flip the script....how many English players (for example) have succeeded in Spain?....Germany?....Italy?.......exactly.....

It's high scoring, sure, but that has a lot to do with the defending being horrible. The league lags seriously behind in coaching and tactics in comparison to the rest of the world. Which Italian managers come across to you as tactical geniuses? Mancini? Capello? Trap? Spalletti? Allegri? Conte? Ancellotti? not a single one would say tactics is their strong suit. They (italians) refuse to play with width and at pace, and they get crushed for it whenever they come up against it. That, and none of them have any money so they can't buy or produce talent at a consistent rate anymore. Honestly have you watched a Bundesliga game or a Premier league game recently? It kind of is a track meet. In a match these days players run at least twice what they did a decade ago. If there's any misconception about the league it's that it's "tactical". That implies an ability to stay up to date with modern trends. In terms of tactics, the Italians haven't progressed past 1995.

hmmm lets see.....we could try Allegri, who outcoached Real in the CL semis last year......Ancellotti, who won the CL with Real just a couple of years ago......or hey lets try the guy who's team is currently leading the "best league in the world" up against teams with millionaire owners, unlimited budgets....oh yeah, Claudio Ranieri......could've sworn he's Italian.....

Is Serie A the best league in the world still?.....no, but you'd be very hard pressed to find a Serie A supporter who thinks that anyways......and besides, its a silly argument nowadays, especially in leagues that are ruled by foreign players and owners.....but Italian teams/coaches still hold their own......its simply wrong to think otherwise.....

[Fort York Redcoat]

Choosing to play for one's domestic league to grow it is a nice thing to say but

without players moving to other leagues it makes it more difficult to measure.

This is fact.

The reason for players not wanting to test themselves elsewhere isn't relevant to comparison. But it IS a nice sentiment.

[TheGoodson]

Sorry, can you point to some recent examples of serie A players leaving to go succeed elsewhere? Serie A has an absolutely awful track record of exporting talent to other leagues over the last century, so that's patently not true. Michael Cox had a good article about that not so long ago. This is the league that made Balotelli look like the best young player in the world. Think about that.

It's high scoring, sure, but that has a lot to do with the defending being horrible. The league lags seriously behind in coaching and tactics in comparison to the rest of the world. Which Italian managers come across to you as tactical geniuses? Mancini? Capello? Trap? Spalletti? Allegri? Conte? Ancellotti? not a single one would say tactics is their strong suit. They (italians) refuse to play with width and at pace, and they get crushed for it whenever they come up against it. That, and none of them have any money so they can't buy or produce talent at a consistent rate anymore. Honestly have you watched a Bundesliga game or a Premier league game recently? It kind of is a track meet. In a match these days players run at least twice what they did a decade ago. If there's any misconception about the league it's that it's "tactical". That implies an ability to stay up to date with modern trends. In terms of tactics, the Italians haven't progressed past 1995.

I watch all three leagues at least semi-routinely. The quality of the average italian player has monumentally decreased over the last century, and with reduced spending power they can't bring in top talent from south America or the smaller european countries anymore. The league is a shell of it's former self. Stop acting like it's still the nineties.

I would take Ancellotti and Allegri over 99% of the managers in the world. How do Italians get crushed in Europe when last year they had the Champions League Finalist on a budget of over half of all of the other semi finalists? In the UEL they had a deep run. Another year like that and England will lose their fourth spot to Italy due to coefficients. So yeah, there are no tatcital geniuses in Italian football, Allegri who is a deeply underrated tactical genius (for what he did with Milan and now Juve), Ancellotti is a terrible tactical coach I guess. Cappello as club coach was a master tacitaly. Then there is Lippi who has won every title possible as a manager. So for your Mourhinio, Pep and Klopp I offer the names before. If you add Siminoe I would add Conte which are very similar coaches that are not great tacitically but are spectacular motivators

I watch a lot of soccer and for entertainment value yes, the EPL is fantastic they run around like chickens with head cut off. But watching games where there is no rhyme or reason in what they are doing is great TV, but the art of defending is lost in most leagues and I disagree that in Italy the defending is poor. Again this track meet mentality is great for TV, but I highly doubt you will ever see a player in Italy score at the rate they do in other leagues on a consistent basis. Higuian he is an outlier at the moment. I agree on the money issues, but developing talent, I would take the Italian U21 next to only spain and Germany.

The names are not as famous as in Italy they take their time in developing them. They spend years honing their craft before they make the first team. Balotelli, made his name for destroying Germany in the semi final of Euro. But, Verratti 23 years, Insigne 24, Berradi 22, Rugani 21 etc... I could go on how much more talent there is in Italy then save Germany and Spain. Maybe they don't translate going from Italy abroad, but the same issue goes the other way when players come to Italy they can't adapt. giovinco made a comment on the differences in the leagues and advised that in Italy there is more focus on tactics then here. Giovinco is the perfect example playing regularly for a mid to lower team (Parma) 66 games 22 goals over two seaons, but in the MLS he scored 22 in one year. So yeah I guess the MLS can compete with Serie A.

The thought that Italian players quality has decreased is quite funny as the Italian national team has routinely made it deep in the U17, 20, 21 and mens team. Save the debacle of 2010 world cup. But at the end of the day let's agree to disagree as I could argue this all day.

[TFC Tifoso]

Choosing to play for one's domestic league to grow it is a nice thing to say but

without players moving to other leagues it makes it more difficult to measure.

This is fact.

The reason for players not wanting to test themselves elsewhere isn't relevant to comparison. But it IS a nice sentiment.

I don't necessarily agree because it is not a question of quality....the players I mentioned undoubtedly have/had the quality to play anywhere......a top Ivorian player (for example) NEEDS to go abroad to get noticed.....a top Italian (or Spanish or German for example) does not since their domestic league gets enough exposure......in fact, if you look at the national teams who have had success in the last 10-15 years, the top players almost all played in the domestic league.....its absolutely relevant to the debate.....

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't necessarily agree because it is not a question of quality....the players I mentioned undoubtedly have/had the quality to play anywhere......a top Ivorian player (for example) NEEDS to go abroad to get noticed.....a top Italian (or Spanish or German for example) does not since their domestic league gets enough exposure......in fact, if you look at the national teams who have had success in the last 10-15 years, the top players almost all played in the domestic league.....its absolutely relevant to the debate.....

What debate? I was using direct comparisons. Using International competitions to compare domestic leagues is an indirect comparison.

I know you're defending the league you love. And its a great league but the extra effort needed to do that proves my point about comparison.

The only debate is the how ridiculous comparing MLS and Serie A is: middling or very ridiculous??

[Fort York Redcoat]

Stop acting like it's still the nineties.

This is the most I can agree with. Looking at the descriptions of the "pro" Serie A side of this thread there are posters (Not all: Hi ensco!) that are describing the league I watched on tln on Sundays 20 years ago.

[notthesun]

Man there is some garbage in here. Italian players don't leave Serie A because it's well-known the national team looks almost exclusively to Italy to pick players, always has. Didn't realize the tactics are stuck in 1995 either. A true miracle that Juventus made the last Champions League final then, I suppose.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Man there is some garbage in here. Italian players don't leave Serie A because it's well-known the national team looks almost exclusively to Italy to pick players, always has. Didn't realize the tactics are stuck in 1995 either. A true miracle that Juventus made the last Champions League final then, I suppose.

And even the player selection may be slowly changing to looking outside the domestic league...

[TFC Tifoso]

What debate? I was using direct comparisons. Using International competitions to compare domestic leagues is an indirect comparison.

I know you're defending the league you love. And its a great league but the extra effort needed to do that proves my point about comparison.

The only debate is the how ridiculous comparing MLS and Serie A is: middling or very ridiculous??

Ok I get that with the first point. It is an indirect comparison, but a national teams success can be tied in to the strength of the domestic league imo....

I don't necessarily need to "defend" Serie A.....anybody who respects the game as a whole (and not just 1 or 2 leagues) understands what the "pro" Serie A people are trying to say here....but I guess the ones who don't understand never will so not much more point trying....

....and its very ridiculous lol.....

This is the most I can agree with. Looking at the descriptions of the "pro" Serie A side of this thread there are posters (Not all: Hi ensco!) that are describing the league I watched on tln on Sundays 20 years ago.

how so?....what kind of league is being described by them?

[burlington Red]

I'm sorry, but with all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't know that soccer was more of a track meet and then an actual game of skill and tactics. Serie A is the most tactical league in the world, the closest is the Bundesliga. It's funny that people think Serie A is boring cause it is a low scoring, but if you can play in Serie A you can play anywhere and not the other way around.

FYI Mexican teams and players are almost as overrated as USMNT players. Your North American bias is quite obvious. Go watch Serie A games and then watch a Mexican game and then MLS games of the equivalent teams and if you can still come back and say that those other teams are 'better' at winning matches then come back and have a chat as I'm not sure you are watching

you might like this wee article, it's a bit dated but gives a run down on Italian players who have played in the PL, some of the views are a bit simplistic and I wouldn't nessecarily agree with them but a few names I'd forgot who actually tried the pl, you might be surprised on some names

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...etti-Zola.html

[vortexdr]

This Milan team would struggle to stay in the premiership. past the top 4-5 teams it's a pretty terrible league.

Not sure if serious....I assume you haven't ever football outside of the MLS. I get you love north America and talent less North American scrubs but being a little objective wouldn't hurt....

[Fort York Redcoat]

Not sure if serious....I assume you haven't watched ever watched football outside of the MLS.

I assume you didn't read the rest of his posts.

I watch all three leagues at least semi-routinely.

[Hugh Jazz]

If you're from the country and making decent money, why would you want to leave Italy?

[TFC Tifoso]

I assume you didn't read the rest of his posts.

I have a hard time believing that someone who has such obvious disdain for a league would watch it, even on a "semi-routinely" basis......but that's just my opinion.....I sure as hell wouldn't waste 2 hours at a time on something I don't care for......

[OgtheDim]

Isn't there another board for generic MLS discussions?