but the stats don't say he's good at doing the things an AM needs to be good at either. Pass completion Pct is a useless stat if you're trying to measure anything than the ability to retain possesion. That's a good skill to have, but not by itself. You need to be able to be a a lot more incisive and aggressive then he is to play that position. Both the stats and the eye test bare this out.Originally Posted by ag futbol
Below you'll find the link to some advanced stats for last season. It's only up to September, but absent some better data dump it's about as good as we'll get. Osorio is top decile for key passing percentage (passes that lead directly to a shot). Produced more key passes than players such as Pappa, Finlay, Diskerud, and Rowe which most would consider attack minded midfielders. This is the third highest total on the team behind Bradley and Giovinco, while noting he is hardly a focus of our attack. The story on him from the analytics guys has been similar. Lots of passes and the passes are forward looking too. From what I have seen the stats do not support your case of his passing not being incisive or aggressive. He's producing more important passes in a game than the average player even if there a lot of short passes in there as well that simply serve to keep possession.
http://www.americansocceranalysis.co...r-xgoals-2015/
Last edited by ag futbol; 02-02-2016 at 12:44 AM.
Just a reminder that guys like Endoh, Babouli, Uccello, etcetera are all fighting for the one roster spot we have left
I was reading that graph earlier.
First off, Rowe and Pappa spent a lot of the time coming off the bench or being out entirely this season, so whatever. Diskerud had a seriously underwhelming season, so holding him to that standard isn't totally flattering either. Finlay's an interesting data point, one that's complicated to the fact that most of his chance creation comes from crosses, which muddles his value under this algorithm. This is where we bring in more data and further put these stats into context.
first off, a "key pass" under those rules is just the last pass before a shot. I'm fairly willing to be a lot of Oso's numbers in that stat come from him dumping the ball off to Giovinco, who took an ungodly amount of shots this season. That's an easy way to pad that stat. The stat that more clearly defines the best playmakers is the XA stat, which judges the quality of his key passes. The top ten in this stat are:
Benny Feilhaber SKC M 2491 42 0.333 10 6.14 3.86 63 10 7.96 14.10 0.113 Sacha Kljestan NYRB M 2606 47 0.489 6 5.74 0.26 68 8 7.63 13.37 0.120 Brad Davis HOU M 2494 45 0.489 4 4.57 -0.57 64 8 7.56 12.12 0.100 Cristian Maidana PHI M 1918 38 0.395 1 2.77 -1.77 76 9 7.42 10.18 0.127 Sebastian Giovinco TOR F 2515 167 0.395 20 16.55 3.45 52 11 7.12 23.67 0.080 Martin Perez Garcia SJ M 1884 27 0.407 2 1.74 0.26 68 6 7.10 8.84 0.125 Chris Tierney NE D 2433 25 0.360 2 1.62 0.38 46 1 6.67 8.29 0.116 Javier Morales RSL M 1848 44 0.659 8 5.94 2.06 71 9 6.52 12.47 0.149 Federico Higuain CLB M 2508 65 0.431 7 7.18 -0.18 70 5 6.41 13.59 0.121 Mauro Diaz FCD M 1536 38 0.368 5 4.12 0.88 44 6 5.61 9.74 0.121
That's a pretty solid list of the best chance creators in the league. In this stat, Osorio is lagging behind such renowned Playmakers as the ghost currently occupying Dillon Powers body, bad at being a poacher - Poacher Gyasi Zardes, contemporary in lineup importance and role Felipe, jogging idiot Justin Meram, a Forward in Kei Kamara who rarely attempted to leave his opposition's 18', FUCKING TAYLOR KEMP, Benchman extraordinaire Kwadwo Poku, eighth best Revs midfielder Kelyn Rowe, The left back for the worst attacking team in the east Joevin Jones, the primary playmaker for the same shit team who was too fat and underwhelming even for the Fire- Shaun Maloney, the third best forward for the Revs Teal Bunbury, some dude named Luke Boden, and Stefan Ishizaki who couldn't always get a game for the Galaxy during the portion of the season when they couldn't for the life of them orchestrate an offense. The five guys sitting directly behind him are Marco Donadel, Quincy "FUCK YEAH" Amarikwa, Matt Besler, Sheanon Williams and Hector Jimenez. That's not good company.
Osorio is an incredibly important piece for the franchise and performs a very important role in our lineup. He does what he does very well, and he continues to get better every season. But it's been three seasons since he became a lock in the starting lineup and an important role in our offense, and I can count on one hand how many times he's even attempted a through ball in behind the opposition's defense or beat a defender one on one. Even in the red bull game where he had every opportunity to show that he could do exactly that, he was extremely conservative with what he did in possession. That was the best opportunity he was gonna get to show he could play those types of passes that the elite playmakers in the league like Feilhaber, Morales, Maidana etc. make over and over again in every game. He did everything except for that, and we won that game because Ronald Zubar forgot how to use his legs and Seba is the greatest human to ever live. without those two moments I think we're having a very different discussion about that performance.
Bradley offers so much more with his dynamism and ability to either directly create chances on his own during the run of play or create space for others that it doesn't under any circumstance make sense for him to play under Osorio and vice-versa. Osorio and Bradley's play in the diamond are intrinsically linked and entirely necessary to one and other as it is at the moment. We shouldn't fuck with that.
If anyone has access to Opta stats I'd gladly welcome them into this dialogue. A clearer statistical picture is always nice.
Why haven't we sped up Uccello's development? wasn't he supposed to be like the best player this country's ever produced?
Interesting discussion about Mark Bloom in the TFC post game report.
Just a quick note on this Osorio topic:
This is a bit of an exaggeration, as they define key passes as leading directly to a shot on net. So Osorio passing sideways to Giovinco who then beats two guys and takes a shot wouldn't count as a key pass.
That being said, I agree with your overall point. Osorio plays a lot of passes in advanced territory, that are often difficult, but he doesn't play as many clear cut chance-creating balls as you'd expect a full-time attacking playmaker to make. His stats would seem to reflect this. He ranks relatively higher by a fair distance in number of key passes vs. quality of key passes. I think it's fair to say this is a good reflection of his ability to find guys in space where they can get a shot off, while most of the time those passes aren't defense-splitting balls. And for having a guy like Giovinco on the team, it's not a bad thing. Some of those types of passes from Osorio would become legitimate scoring chances for Giovinco while that is not reflected in Osorio's xA stats, since all the expected stats assume an average player taking the shot (e.g. his back heel flick-on to Giovinco for his 2nd goal vs. Colorado would probably not be worth much in xA value, but Giovinco is going to score that 9/10 times).
In short, Osorio plays both a lot of passes to keep possession and a lot of important passes that drive the play forward, but playing that final killer pass that unlocks the defense is not his strength. If there's a clear chance to do it he has the skill to pull it off, but I don't think he has the vision to "find" the types of passes that we as spectators or opposition back lines don't see coming on a consistent basis.
What's more interesting is the formation we've been employing thus far. Definitely looks like we're headed toward a 4-3-3 this year.
Which definitely means that Oso is out of the starting 11.
Giovinco - Altidore - Gomez
Cheyrou - Bradley - Johnson
Morrow - Perquis - Moor - Beitashour
I wouldn't look that far ahead just yet. Missing Bradley and Johnson is a massive change to our midfield. I would wait to see what Vanney does in the preseason matches where both of them are back with the team.
If I saw that, I'd be putting a winger bombing down that left side right at Cheyrou.
if we do use a 4-3-3 It's gonna be Johnson at the base with Bradley and Osorio beside him or Osorio in the three up top over Gomez. He was our third best player last year, no reason to leave him on the bench.
Though I agree with you to a certain extent, we've used a 4-3-3 in 3 of the 4 halves we played. If I'm the manager I get my guys accustomed to the formation and system I want them to play, regardless of if all the players are there yet.
On the flipside, maybe he's getting some more comfort in this formation so that everyones more comfortable to switch between this and the diamond depending on the opponent.
Exactly, a team with a speedy right winger and an attacking right full back would relish that all day long
Not sure an attacking Right FB leaving Seba alone is a good idea but certainly that formation lacks speed on the left.
Video of the goals are up.
Uccello: http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/02...?autoplay=true
Babouli: http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/02...?autoplay=true
Chapman: http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/02...?autoplay=true
Other arguments aside, this is just silly. He's an exceptional player.
Wow, great run/atrocious defending on that Chapman goal.. dude's got an engine for sure. Thanks for posting.
Two of the goals seem to have Chapman/ Uccello from the left flank cutting in.
Do we have a left footed forward who can do it on the right wing?
I believe Endoh is two footed and played right wing. Lovitz is also a left footed winger, but I don't think right wing is in his future. Vanney seems to see him as a left back
yah, he easily ran the lengnth of hte pitrch and then some in all the directions he went. He essentially out ran the defence who just didnt have the gas
I like the pressure on the Babouli goal. Hope we continue to have that type of aggression in my MF.
Isn't that a problem we love to have? Too many left footed fullbacks.
They are clearly videoing these games... just stream them. If Gavin Day can do it from the back waters of central america, i'm sure devang can do it from Cali.
It's possible that they don't want other MLS teams getting 90 minute scouting videos on what types of tactics/formations they're working on in pre season? Or maybe they didn't bring the right equipment? Or maybe they're just lazy?
I'm calling lazy
Or their network is utter crap for streaming.
I can understand them not streaming the game since they might not have a connection there. But at least load the game to YouTube after
Never said it wasn't a good problem
http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/02...reseason-plans
TFC2 Pre-season schedule is out:
February 1 – First Day of Training
Saturday, February 20 – York University @ Kia Training Grounds, 1:00 p.m. ET
Friday, February 26 – Ottawa Fury @ Kia Training Grounds, 3:00 p.m. ET
Wednesday, March 2 – Depart to Vancouver
Friday, March 4 – Simon Fraser University @ SFU (time is TBD)
Sunday, March 6 – Whitecaps FC 2 @ SFU, 1:30 p.m. ET
Wednesday, March 9 – Seattle Sounders FC 2 @ Starfire Sportsplex (time is TBD)
Thursday, March 10 – Return to Toronto
Saturday, March 19 – Rochester Rhinos @ Kia Training Grounds, 3:00 p.m. ET
I asked if it was open to fans.
Yeah if they've got footage of the full game why not post it afterwards????
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