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  1. #61
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    College sports like NCAA football and basketball are basically professional, let's be honest. Everything, literally everything, about them is professional-grade except the player salaries.

    As T-boy alluded to above there's no culture of supporting lower tier sports in NA like there is in Europe. A relegated MLS team would lose a massive chunk of their attendance, and their TV deal. MLS is not even close to ready for a pro/rel system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    College sports like NCAA football and basketball are basically professional, let's be honest. Everything, literally everything, about them is professional-grade except the player salaries.

    As T-boy alluded to above there's no culture of supporting lower tier sports in NA like there is in Europe. A relegated MLS team would lose a massive chunk of their attendance, and their TV deal. MLS is not even close to ready for a pro/rel system.
    that is not true, only a fraction of those College players make it to NBA or NFL or NHL, all the sports are like that. When you look at how many college teams there are, a lot of them actually have no chance of winning, majority of the colleges are like League 1 or Championship teams in England, decent support, but very unlikely to really win anything. There is something like over 100 teams in College Football and I think Basketball to. Some teams in America Football college get 110k fans a game, some get 70k, some 50k, some play in 40 k stadiums and its half empty, some play in 20k stadiums...what you see on TV in Canada on American TV channels is generally the biggest college teams. But there are a lot of smaller local teams who don't sell out stadiums all the time and don't play in 100k stadiums, a lot of the teams are very local, like you see in most Soccer teams in Europe outside of the big clubs. I think The Big 10 in American College football is like your Arsenal, Munich, Chelsea, AC Milan, or PSG. But there are many others that aren't big like them. The crazy thing is, its COLLEGE, they aren't even pros yet. Tho there is some illegeal money dealing and such that goes on in College sports, just like I know the Italian League has been fixed for years by the Mafia!

    Also as I mentioned before in this thread...teams that get relegated often do actually lose a big chunk of attendance and money when relegated. An example (and there are many many examples like this) Middlesbrough FC use to get 34k fans in the Premiership, when in championship they now get 23k attendance on average. The prices also dropped. And some teams in England and other countries actually have it even worse when relegated. However I do get your point, some MLS teams would be in even a worse scenerio then Middlesbrough if relegated. As some MLS teams struggle as it is. A relegation might cripple many teams in MLS.
    Last edited by james; 12-10-2015 at 02:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    This argument ignores that the same people invest in Europe, in teams that go up and down all the time and lose tons of money. Or that MLS is basically designed to lose money on purpose, and that it hasn't stopped Franchise fees from skyrocketing anyway for the very reason that it's advantageous to some.

    And it doesn't mean relegation is wrong, either.

    What, exactly, do people in NA have against the idea of turning the bottom of the table into a race? I don't get it.
    I think your fans who will support the team no matter what type of mentality (Like your Supporter groups) actually want a promotion/relegation system to be more like Europe. However a lot of us who want that system also realize a lot of the owners would not like this system. The reality is, when a team goes down a division, attendance drops, prices are lowered, and a team often has to lose players. This system survives in many Europe countries because it has always been this way, but that said some clubs really struggle once relegated, sometimes go bankrupt and drop further, however these teams usually carry on no matter what even if they have to go to a 4th division and charge a fraction of what they use charge for tickets and profits and try to fight there way back up. American pro sports set-up is designed to never lose money, always try to gain money, if a team loses to much they must be moved, they usually don't accept a team losing attendance numbers and price dropping year after year. They usually try to prevent a team ever going bankrupt. I think even in Europe some of your big team owners would actually prefer to never be able to be relegated, but the system is there, and has been for a long time, so they realize it won't be changed. The problem with a club like Dallas FC or Columbus or Colorado droping a division might mean attendance going from 14k to 7k and prices droping to...can the team continue to pay for the stadium? or TV revenue? the question is, with the way MLS is set-up could some of these teams actually survive a relegation?? I personally think it wouldn't survive. (that said who knows its also never been tried). I also wouild love a relegation/promotion set-up. But I just don't see it happening. You also have other issues like what if a bunch of East division clubs get relegated...would it make travel cost to expensive to have some east teams constantly traveling west because they had more teams that survive the top flight?? does that mess up there time zones and tv schedules?

    Its more complicated over here I think.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qman View Post
    you have so many weak clubs in MLS right now. Most mid-American (ex-KC / RSL) don't even get 10k a game (MLS bullshit attendance figures aside). Don't get why they are expanding (obviously its the $$$). But its better for the league long term to shed weak markets and move into stronger ones and stay around 20.

    Teams are just putting expansion fees in their pockets, and when expansion stops all these teams will fold and league looks bad and more teams struggle and fold in a cascading effect. Garber isn't doing a good job for the long term sake of the league.
    List the team's putting expansion fees in their pockets instead of spending it on players, academies or stadiums.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Interesting, I believe there was something about the broadcast & streaming situation in the original article when OgtheDim first posted it...? Now I can't see anything, so I'm not sure. However, I did notice that the date on the article at http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/1...duling-updates is December 6, 2015, 3:05 PM EST.

    OgtheDim's original post, which contained this link, was actually earlier than that: 12-05-2015, 06:24 PM. So maybe MLS edited the article later after posting it...???
    The article I posted was put out by a Philly based soccer reporter who analyses the game as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    Some teams in America Football college get 110k fans a game, some get 70k, some 50k, some play in 40 k stadiums and its half empty, some play in 20k stadiums...what you see on TV in Canada on American TV channels is generally the biggest college teams. But there are a lot of smaller local teams who don't sell out stadiums all the time and don't play in 100k stadiums, a lot of the teams are very local, like you see in most Soccer teams in Europe outside of the big clubs. I think The Big 10 in American College football is like your Arsenal, Munich, Chelsea, AC Milan, or PSG. But there are many others that aren't big like them.
    But that's my point. The biggest teams get huge support, TV ratings, and collectively bring in billions of dollars. The smaller teams don't do quite as well. Same as any other sport in NA. Top tier teams succeed and lower tier teams struggle.

    I agree there are examples in Europe of relegation really hurting clubs, but by and large they are able to get by. As you say I don't think the same could be said of relegated MLS teams.

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    Pro Rel is more interesting but not to most people who live here.

    Both that structure and the Playoff system and league structure we have here have serious faults.


    This is so off season..
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    The people who are investing in Europe would love to get rid of promotion / relegation if they could.

    Why this conversation comes up I have no idea. This is a league founded to be a business and has nothing to do with tradition.

    There's no business case for it. It's a value destructor to clubs and with TV deals (which need to guarantee the presence of big markets).

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    I wouldn't watch a relegated TFC - I say this now but who knows how I'll feel if it did.

    But as it stands, I'm already having a hard time watching the crap football TFC produces. To go down a division and watch even crappier footy...not my cup of tea.

    Add to the fact a lot of the footy in NA isn't run by footy people. It's run by businessmen. A relegated team may never get a chance to come back up with business being the first priority.

    If you want to see how a footy team in Europe run by a businessman with no footy knowledge is run , look at Newcastle United. It's a train wreck. Money doesn't solve all problems. Knowledge of the game is key to winning.

    I just don't think NA has enough of the brains to deal with the consequences of relegation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    The people who are investing in Europe would love to get rid of promotion / relegation if they could.

    Why this conversation comes up I have no idea. This is a league founded to be a business and has nothing to do with tradition.

    There's no business case for it. It's a value destructor to clubs and with TV deals (which need to guarantee the presence of big markets).

    like in scotland, where it almost killed their league

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    ^ Well, without a salary cap, the Rangers just about died. But at least 6 other teams went through insolvency.

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    New DCU crest.

    Last edited by kodiakTFC; 12-10-2015 at 09:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    But that's my point. The biggest teams get huge support, TV ratings, and collectively bring in billions of dollars. The smaller teams don't do quite as well. Same as any other sport in NA. Top tier teams succeed and lower tier teams struggle.

    I agree there are examples in Europe of relegation really hurting clubs, but by and large they are able to get by. As you say I don't think the same could be said of relegated MLS teams.
    but in Europe there is big clubs in each league, reality is most Leagues only have 3 or 4 big clubs that could ever win a season. The smaller clubs are often more small time locally supported, and even then in those same local communities you will find a whole pile of fans who don't support the smaller local club but instead support your Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal, and other countries in Europe are the same way. Most clubs in Europe do not have the support or money to compete at a level of the big clubs. I wouldn't exactly say Europe can handle relegation much better then in North America, I guess the only difference in North America is a team folds and moves to another city, that is just a very rare thing in Europe, its like they just don't let them move, in North America the league encourages the move if the team can not compete financially!
    Last edited by james; 12-11-2015 at 12:59 AM.

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    Regulation won't happen here.

    The average travel distance just for the MLS season is similar to that of Champions and Europa League. Our Champions League play is nearly double.

    You can have regulation when half the teams you play are within 300-400km and are 1100km at most away. In MLS Atlanta will have 17 teams over 1000km away, 6 of which will be over 3,000km (about the same as Lisbon playing in Russia) Just in the conferences the travel is further than most Euro leagues.

    Which is part of the reason the franchise system developed.. because it is part of the realities of how large our countries are, to have national rather than regional leagues.

    Can you imagine having to redraw conferences every year because Toronto and and Philly get Relegated and Sacramento and Reno get promoted? The simple reality is that as much as people think that just because it is done in Europe it should be done here... doesn't mean it makes sense nor is it needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Can you imagine having to redraw conferences every year because Toronto and and Philly get Relegated and Sacramento and Reno get promoted? The simple reality is that as much as people think that just because it is done in Europe it should be done here... doesn't mean it makes sense nor is it needed.
    I'm imagining it right now...

    MAJESTIC.



    Back to the flimsy league expansion reasons...





    Here's to the short term!!!
    Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 12-11-2015 at 10:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Can you imagine having to redraw conferences every year because Toronto and and Philly get Relegated and Sacramento and Reno get promoted? The simple reality is that as much as people think that just because it is done in Europe it should be done here... doesn't mean it makes sense nor is it needed.
    Given that the last poll on MLSsoccer.com and the last two polls on SBI all indicated that the majority of MLS fans clearly want single-table, that's not really an issue either. It's one thing to resist outside culture, it's another thing to do it without purpose. This has been polled repeatedly; Ives Galarcep didn't believe it either, so he polled his readers, got thousands of responses, and it was clear most MLS fans want both relegation AND single table.

    MLS will accelerate the process of being taken seriously when Juventus fans in New York start going to Red Bull and NYFC games, not just exhibitions against their favorite teams from Italy. They won't do that if they think the sport, as presented at its highest level, is disrespected or sold short. That's always been the case.

    I'm not saying it has to happen. But it will accelerate the support and improvement of soccer in NA. And it doesn't have to be simple, or even common. The conditions can be onerous, such as a clear league win, plus beating the relegated team from above in a home-and-away, plus having a minimum season ticket base. But as long as the possibility exists, the regular season means something for the bottom half of the table in a league about to expand to TWENTY-EIGHT teams. Think about that; for 16 sets of fans, the league will mean nothing (because the SS basically means nothing): it won't determine a league winner, it won't determine a relegation fight, and it won't provide a chance to win a cup.

    YOu want serious fans involved, give them impetus, good or bad. Make the whole Cosmos thing mean someting. Make the Austin fight mean something. Bring in smaller communities (that are still very large cities) by giving them hope. Football in Europe lives and dies on local club support; that has to happen here before it will ever reach the top level (let alone by MLS' 2022 goal). But it won't if so much of the season is meaningless, or if it's assumed all fans are fairweather and have no club culture to keep them with a relegated side.

    EDIT: You can even use revenue pooling to avoid serious financial losses to relegated teams for a certain period. There are many steps available to mitigate the "they'll lose more money" thing. When you consider how many U.S. MLS teams seem to DELIBERATELY lose as much as possible, you have to wonder based on American tax code how much of it is just a dodge anyway for much larger financial entities.
    Last edited by jloome; 12-11-2015 at 02:04 PM.

  17. #77
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    Red face Talent quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Completely agree. Without a major overhaul in the salary structure the talent quality will be diluted to shit.

    They might want to look at the NHL's experience as well. Just because you can drop franchises on a map that theoretically allows for a better TV deal doesn't mean anyone wants to watch your product.

    The state of the game in North America today by no means justifies the number of teams they are proposing.

    This is soccer (football) where almost every country on the planet plays the sport. A little scouting and there are more than enough quality players to fill up 28 teams. This is not American football, baseball or hockey where there is a shortage of talent because only a handful of countries play the sport and 40+ year old are still playing. The funny thing is that the haters call MLS a retirement league but their sport has many more retirement aged players. This is fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Pro Rel is more interesting but not to most people who live here.

    Both that structure and the Playoff system and league structure we have here have serious faults.


    This is so off season..
    But this is the year we really figure it out.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Given that the last poll on MLSsoccer.com and the last two polls on SBI all indicated that the majority of MLS fans clearly want single-table, that's not really an issue either. It's one thing to resist outside culture, it's another thing to do it without purpose. This has been polled repeatedly; Ives Galarcep didn't believe it either, so he polled his readers, got thousands of responses, and it was clear most MLS fans want both relegation AND single table.

    MLS will accelerate the process of being taken seriously when Juventus fans in New York start going to Red Bull and NYFC games, not just exhibitions against their favorite teams from Italy. They won't do that if they think the sport, as presented at its highest level, is disrespected or sold short. That's always been the case.

    I'm not saying it has to happen. But it will accelerate the support and improvement of soccer in NA. And it doesn't have to be simple, or even common. The conditions can be onerous, such as a clear league win, plus beating the relegated team from above in a home-and-away, plus having a minimum season ticket base. But as long as the possibility exists, the regular season means something for the bottom half of the table in a league about to expand to TWENTY-EIGHT teams. Think about that; for 16 sets of fans, the league will mean nothing (because the SS basically means nothing): it won't determine a league winner, it won't determine a relegation fight, and it won't provide a chance to win a cup.

    YOu want serious fans involved, give them impetus, good or bad. Make the whole Cosmos thing mean someting. Make the Austin fight mean something. Bring in smaller communities (that are still very large cities) by giving them hope. Football in Europe lives and dies on local club support; that has to happen here before it will ever reach the top level (let alone by MLS' 2022 goal). But it won't if so much of the season is meaningless, or if it's assumed all fans are fairweather and have no club culture to keep them with a relegated side.

    EDIT: You can even use revenue pooling to avoid serious financial losses to relegated teams for a certain period. There are many steps available to mitigate the "they'll lose more money" thing. When you consider how many U.S. MLS teams seem to DELIBERATELY lose as much as possible, you have to wonder based on American tax code how much of it is just a dodge anyway for much larger financial entities.

    Take a single table then.. that means every team plays every other team equally.

    That means West Coast and East Coast times all fly the 3,500km 6-11 times a year and at 22 teams you have a 42 game season. Fans are seldom the best people to talk to about what makes financial sense. North American Sport has been developed by the Dollars and Cents of National Leagues that are the size of Europe. Where as Europe teams have been developed via leagues that are the are smaller than Manitoba with many teams very close together over all teams rarely have to travel further than 1000km..(often round trip) Most clubs have several clubs within 100km of them. MLS has one team (philly) that has 3 MLS teams within 200km (NYRB, NYCFC, DC). The Premier Leagues currently has two groups of 4+ teams where they are all within 50KM (approx) of each other (London, and Manchester/Liverpool)

    The Economic burden of just a single Table is high.. which is why the NHL, MLB, NFL, NBA, and NCAA all have divisions inside the Conferences. (at least at the beginning)

    It may be possible at some point.. but not today..


    It is just fans that think the Euro way is the right way... which is what leads to insolvent clubs.

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    The BIGGER issue where do you relegate to. USL? NASL? Some Nascent Canadian League? Not likely. Owners paying tens of milions in expansion fees (let alone the cost of running a club) would never sign off on TRUE pro/rel.

    Pro/Rel in the MLS context only works in an 'artificial' way..... you have to tie it into both how MLS would want to set up regular season and playoffs going forward. Here is a hypothetical I've been thinking of about how it could work:

    You could setup say a 'MLS1' and 'MLS2' League comprised of the current and future league franchises. Expand to 28/30 clubs and split em into two 'leagues' - Top tier and bottom tier - everybody plays the traditional 1 home 1 away schedule within their own tier. Expansion clubs join MLS2. Top three MLS2 clubs in regular season get promoted to MLS1. Bottom three in MLS1 get sent packing to MLS2. Just like Europe and would appeal to the traditionalists. Puts a much higher emphasis on the regular season results (not just those at the top of the table) and gives us what many of us love about pro/rel in Europe, meaningful games at the end of the season even for clubs not in the playoff picture.

    You could even increase the emphasis on the Cup competitions (Voyageurs Cup and US Open Cup) by granting winners (if applicable) promotion or an exemption from relegation.

    You could also have a playoff structure for each tier where a proportionally larger number of MLS1 clubs and a smaller number of MLS2 clubs make the season ending playoffs. There could even be some number of crossover regular season games between MLS1 and MLS2 to cater to local rivalries that might be impacted by the historical or geographic rivals that currently exist in the two tiers not playing each other as often as the league would like.

    Just spit-balling here but there ARE options (Many of them if you truly think about it) if the league and the owners want to think creatively about changing the league setup. At the end of the day 'success' does not necessarily begin and end with winning or losing MLS Cup in a pro/rel world. Winning promotion - avoiding relegation - winning a cup exemption - playoffs - more MEANINGFUL matches for MORE teams means more excitement for everybody in my opinion.
    Last edited by bgnewf; 12-11-2015 at 07:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bgnewf View Post
    The BIGGER issue where do you relegate to. USL? NASL? Some Nascent Canadian League? Not likely. Owners paying tens of milions in expansion fees (let alone the cost of running a club) would never sign off on TRUE pro/rel.

    Pro/Rel in the MLS context only works in an 'artificial' way..... you have to tie it into both how MLS would want to set up regular season and playoffs going forward. Here is a hypothetical I've been thinking of about how it could work:

    You could setup say a 'MLS1' and 'MLS2' League comprised of the current and future league franchises. Expand to 28/30 clubs and split em into two 'leagues' - Top tier and bottom tier - everybody plays the traditional 1 home 1 away schedule within their own tier. Expansion clubs join MLS2. Top three MLS2 clubs in regular season get promoted to MLS1. Bottom three in MLS1 get sent packing to MLS2. Just like Europe and would appeal to the traditionalists. Puts a much higher emphasis on the regular season results (not just those at the top of the table) and gives us what many of us love about pro/rel in Europe, meaningful games at the end of the season even for clubs not in the playoff picture.

    You could even increase the emphasis on the Cup competitions (Voyageurs Cup and US Open Cup) by granting winners (if applicable) promotion or an exemption from relegation.

    You could also have a playoff structure for each tier where a proportionally larger number of MLS1 clubs and a smaller number of MLS2 clubs make the season ending playoffs. There could even be some number of crossover regular season games between MLS1 and MLS2 to cater to local rivalries that might be impacted by the two tiers not playing each other as often as the league would like.

    Just spit-balling here but there ARE options (Many of them if you truly think about it) if the league and the owners want to think creatively about changing the league setup. At the end of the day 'success' does not necessarily begin and end with winning or losing MLS Cup in a pro/rel world. Winning promotion - avoiding relegation - winning a cup exemption - playoffs - more MEANINGFUL matches for MORE teams means more excitement for everybody in my opinion.
    Great ideas! Hopefully someone from mls sees your post!

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    I wonder how the old MLB model would work with two separate leagues: one in the East, the other in the West. The teams in each league would only play within each other and the league champions would play each other in a two legged final or something. It worked in the MLB for many years (still kind of has that structure but now has interleague play). If there honestly demand to have well over 30+ teams (very possible when you consider Canadian teams that would also want in), then this would make sense. You could have two 16 or 18 team leagues, have a balanced schedule, reduce travel, and have single tables. But it would be built on a model that has been done in North America before. Also, the concept of two independent "conferences" has been and is still used in lower divisions in Europe. The Greek second division uses this.

    You could use playoffs if you still want to determine the two league champions or stick to single table and you also don't need relegation/promotion because you can accommodate more top division teams this way.

    The flaws in this model is that the league likes selling it's stars, and this system would mean some teams would never see a Giovinco, or Kaka because some teams would never play each other. But the way the MLS is going, it's likely that's going to happen anyway. You would need a 40 game season if you want to play everyone outside your conference once, and everyone in it twice if there are 28 teams.

    I'm thinking out loud of course.

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    Any idea when the 2016 schedule will be announced?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bgnewf View Post
    The BIGGER issue where do you relegate to. USL? NASL? Some Nascent Canadian League? Not likely. Owners paying tens of milions in expansion fees (let alone the cost of running a club) would never sign off on TRUE pro/rel.

    Pro/Rel in the MLS context only works in an 'artificial' way..... you have to tie it into both how MLS would want to set up regular season and playoffs going forward. Here is a hypothetical I've been thinking of about how it could work:

    You could setup say a 'MLS1' and 'MLS2' League comprised of the current and future league franchises. Expand to 28/30 clubs and split em into two 'leagues' - Top tier and bottom tier - everybody plays the traditional 1 home 1 away schedule within their own tier. Expansion clubs join MLS2. Top three MLS2 clubs in regular season get promoted to MLS1. Bottom three in MLS1 get sent packing to MLS2. Just like Europe and would appeal to the traditionalists. Puts a much higher emphasis on the regular season results (not just those at the top of the table) and gives us what many of us love about pro/rel in Europe, meaningful games at the end of the season even for clubs not in the playoff picture.

    You could even increase the emphasis on the Cup competitions (Voyageurs Cup and US Open Cup) by granting winners (if applicable) promotion or an exemption from relegation.

    You could also have a playoff structure for each tier where a proportionally larger number of MLS1 clubs and a smaller number of MLS2 clubs make the season ending playoffs. There could even be some number of crossover regular season games between MLS1 and MLS2 to cater to local rivalries that might be impacted by the historical or geographic rivals that currently exist in the two tiers not playing each other as often as the league would like.

    Just spit-balling here but there ARE options (Many of them if you truly think about it) if the league and the owners want to think creatively about changing the league setup. At the end of the day 'success' does not necessarily begin and end with winning or losing MLS Cup in a pro/rel world. Winning promotion - avoiding relegation - winning a cup exemption - playoffs - more MEANINGFUL matches for MORE teams means more excitement for everybody in my opinion.
    I think it will make more money... if you have ever been to an NFL game where the home team is 2-12 or even worse a baseball game where the home team is 40-70 with 2 months still to go ... it is unbelievably boring & bad for business. Relegation is both a motivator and and a consequence for ineptitude. Relegation battles give some excitement to poor team lat e in the season ..it rewards never give up attitude and mid-season improvements. I don't buy those..crazy European ideas won't work here narratives. Heck we invented this place...well at least stole it from the original owners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton_Red View Post
    Any idea when the 2016 schedule will be announced?
    Last year it was Jan 7th. I would imagine it's the same this time

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    Does anyone think that Pro/Rel could ever happen but the All Star game and friendlies still exist?

    Just saying changing the all star game and friendlies in mid season would be indicative of a shift in priority that would be more likely to happen and while it wouldn't be a necessary step to precede Pro/Rel it would be the indicative priority shift IMO.

    Until that kind of discussion seriously gets further outside of forums I think that kind of talk is premature.
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    I just hope the pro/rel gets worked out one way or the other soon because the constant discussion is not good for the league. It's too divisive. Here are some quotes I took just from this thread (I can't imagine going over past threads on this issue):


    "Pro Rel is more interesting but not to most people who live here."

    "I just don't think NA has enough of the brains to deal with the consequences of relegation."



    "You want serious fans involved..."


    Those kinds of statements divide fans here and ranks some as smarter, more serious, better, than others. And it's true, I think, there are two groups of fans and maybe neither group on its own is enough to grow MLS to where people want it to be.


    I can say, as someone who was born and grew up here and had little involvement with the sport before TFC that I was interested for a while but I drifted away. These kinds of discussions, these kinds of dividing fans and, frankly, the constant refrain about how stupid we are in NA gets to be too much. We have baseball, the NFL, the NBA and NHL, plenty of other sports to follow. Why follow one that doesn't want you?


    I hope MLS continues to grow and becomes a major sport in NA but it faces a lot of competition. It's not inevitable that it be successful.


    But then there are things like this in the thread also, so that's good:


    "The desire to emulate European leagues is weird. Just do what works here. There is no need for Pro Rel. The absence of Pro Rel is not killing the game here."


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    I like how a thread on new MLS rules gets derailed into the perpetual off season thread on promotion/relegation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    I just hope the pro/rel gets worked out one way or the other soon because the constant discussion is not good for the league. It's too divisive. Here are some quotes I took just from this thread (I can't imagine going over past threads on this issue):


    "Pro Rel is more interesting but not to most people who live here."

    "I just don't think NA has enough of the brains to deal with the consequences of relegation."



    "You want serious fans involved..."


    Those kinds of statements divide fans here and ranks some as smarter, more serious, better, than others. And it's true, I think, there are two groups of fans and maybe neither group on its own is enough to grow MLS to where people want it to be.


    I can say, as someone who was born and grew up here and had little involvement with the sport before TFC that I was interested for a while but I drifted away. These kinds of discussions, these kinds of dividing fans and, frankly, the constant refrain about how stupid we are in NA gets to be too much. We have baseball, the NFL, the NBA and NHL, plenty of other sports to follow. Why follow one that doesn't want you?


    I hope MLS continues to grow and becomes a major sport in NA but it faces a lot of competition. It's not inevitable that it be successful.


    But then there are things like this in the thread also, so that's good:


    "The desire to emulate European leagues is weird. Just do what works here. There is no need for Pro Rel. The absence of Pro Rel is not killing the game here."

    Well that's pretty damning. There's plenty of talk in here about future league expansion and creative salary changes in a young league that has a diverse fan base.

    Apparently I need to be even more more moderate in my phrasing.

    ProRel may be more interesting to some here yet that has little bearing on how the league is run next year or the near future.



    I'm glad you at least showed the 2 differing opinions on this subject (that isn't really what the thread topic is about but seems to be bandied about this time of year).

    I wish you'd show the courtesy of refraining from taking very few posts to paint with such a large brush.

    And yes we should get back to new rules
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I like how a thread on new MLS rules gets derailed into the perpetual off season thread on promotion/relegation.
    You got to admit though that's its kind of fun to discuss and its not entirely off topic.

    Its nice to see the different view points and ideas from the many users we have here, its better than bringing up that deathwatch thread that's for sure.

 

 

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