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  1. #1501
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    4-3-1-2 is really a 4-3-3 variant. It's what I'd do.

    Bigger question is how not to mess with Seba. It seems unavoidable.
    Absolutely.

    Many teams play that 4-3-3 with one of the FW's frequently drifting underneath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    No way Johnson can play the top of the diamond, or a 10. I have seen one too many MNT game to buy that. He doesn't have the flair. He's a classic 6. Bradley should go there before he does.
    I think his formations the top player(s) are defensive and bottom players are attacking mids. At least that's how I read it. Therefore, WJ always being at the bottom of the diamond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydermike View Post
    I think his formations the top player(s) are defensive and bottom players are attacking mids. At least that's how I read it. Therefore, WJ always being at the bottom of the diamond.
    You must be right, jloome knows too much MLS to suggest that Johnson could be an AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    I still don't get the team speed discussion.

    Our goals against were mostly the result of breakdowns in shape, not being outpaced. Rivero's goal in the season opener is an example of the latter, but Vanney realized about 3-4 games in that we didn't have the guys to play a high line and so we sat deep for the rest of the season. The problem is that if you're sitting deep, you need at least one guy protecting the back line during transitions. We didn't have that, ever.

    Vancouver had one of the best defensive records in the league, not because they're fast (as if Manneh and Techera are doing any defending) but because they plant two guys right in front of the back line every game.

  5. #1505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossington Mental Youth View Post
    Gotta disagree here. Bendik nice guy, so so keeper. We need more he can't provide. If ya don't use TAM ya lose it and so we might as well use it on Borjan, who is by all means a decent keeper, certainly good enough for this league, with great euro experience.not sure I trust Vanneys plugs in France as Perquis and Kantari have been so so so far. Do wish it had been used on a pit bull DM but it wasn't so once again I ask why not on Borjan
    I think he is a potentially great keeper, with all the right physical tools. But his mental approach is incorrect and he does not have the emotional strength of purpose. He was slighted by the Julio Cesar situation when he should have seen it as an opportunity to learn and grow. A shame. He could have been a legend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    No way Johnson can play the top of the diamond, or a 10. I have seen one too many MNT game to buy that. He doesn't have the flair. He's a classic 6. Bradley should go there before he does.
    That's the bottom, not the top.EDIT: Thanks rm!

    Sorry eugene, I always post those the traditional way, from the back! Mucho confusingo. 2nd edit: Also, muchingo christmas rusty nailo.
    Last edited by jloome; 12-19-2015 at 07:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    That's the bottom, not the top.EDIT: Thanks AG!

    Sorry eugene, I always post those the traditional way, from the back! Mucho confusingo.
    Well then, old cod, if we are going old school, should we consider the 2-3-5 pyramid?
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Well then, old cod, if we are going old school, should we consider the 2-3-5 pyramid?
    LOL I played this in prep school in England in the 70s, before moving over here. 5 forwards. We actually played 3-2-5 most of the time as it was a very old and TRADITIONAL prep school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    I still don't get the team speed discussion.

    Our goals against were mostly the result of breakdowns in shape, not being outpaced. Rivero's goal in the season opener is an example of the latter, but Vanney realized about 3-4 games in that we didn't have the guys to play a high line and so we sat deep for the rest of the season. The problem is that if you're sitting deep, you need at least one guy protecting the back line during transitions. We didn't have that, ever.

    Vancouver had one of the best defensive records in the league, not because they're fast (as if Manneh and Techera are doing any defending) but because they plant two guys right in front of the back line every game.
    The second game against Columbus and the final against Montreal, we looked like we ere chasing the play. It's not just a matter of getting behind the backline; it's also the sheer reflex ability to react, particularly when you're playing a short passing game through the middle as we often do. And it compounded problems when we turned the ball over, in terms of the ability of the other team to counter quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Cheyrou is no sure starter next year. We might play the diamond with Seba at the top, Bradley beside Oso, and Johnson behind them (instead of Cheyrou).

    Gomez will be traded or used. What happened with him was nuts last year.
    I doubt we'll see Giovinco anywhere other than at striker or slightly to the left of Altidore in a 4-3-3. I think Vanney tried him at the top of the diamond at the start of last season and gave up on it after a few games and never when back since he was way better up top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    I still don't get the team speed discussion.

    Our goals against were mostly the result of breakdowns in shape, not being outpaced. Rivero's goal in the season opener is an example of the latter, but Vanney realized about 3-4 games in that we didn't have the guys to play a high line and so we sat deep for the rest of the season. The problem is that if you're sitting deep, you need at least one guy protecting the back line during transitions. We didn't have that, ever.

    Vancouver had one of the best defensive records in the league, not because they're fast (as if Manneh and Techera are doing any defending) but because they plant two guys right in front of the back line every game.

    Yes and also that one of them was Kendall Waston. He was dominant as one of the CB's - great signing for them.

  12. #1512
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    LOL I played this in prep school in England in the 70s, before moving over here. 5 forwards. We actually played 3-2-5 most of the time as it was a very old and TRADITIONAL prep school.
    We need a retro movement in soccer... the 2-3-5 formation worked for a hundred years - it can't have been that bad!

  13. #1513
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    I still don't get the team speed discussion.
    We got shredded on counter way too many times due to lack of speed in midfield, esp the reckless way the midfield pushed up and get caught. A stud DM might have prevented a lot of goals by using speed and covering up the mistake of others.

    A team without ton of speed can recover from losing possession, but that requires midfielders to play smarter soccer and team chemistry. RSL under Kreis was maybe average in speed in midfield, but they had great chemistry and understanding of each other's game to make up for a lot of lost possession in the midfield. Beckerman isn't exactly athletic DM, but he worked well with other box to box mids to create turnovers.
    But for TFC, since we lack team chemistry to work in tandem, we need a destroyer DM who can cover a lot of space to shield the back 4. Cheyrou isn't that guy.
    Esp if fullbacks will be only ones providing width, meaning the DM will have to do a lot of work to cover.

    If WJ and Bradley ends up being the 2 box to box mids, I see a lot of squirrels chasing a nut soccer in the mid. Those 2 play high press soccer to create turn overs and best as late arrivals in the box on attack. This still means TFC needs a CAM, or another playmaker because neither Bradley or Will Johnson are creative enough to be the offensive spark in the midfielder. Good passers yes. Not Javier Morales type of playmaker. Which means TFC relies on Giovinco to create everything again.

    I don't mind if Osorio becomes a sub because 1) you need depth and 2) there will be enough rotation going around and Oso will get enough mins. Come to think of it, TFC is spending way too much on starters and I'm concerned more about depth. And we still don't have a starting GK or a stud DM and cap space is dwindling fast.

    Picking up Beita and Moor are good starts. WJ IMO is a luxury signing at this point.
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton_Red View Post
    We need a retro movement in soccer... the 2-3-5 formation worked for a hundred years - it can't have been that bad!
    Yes, bring back the inside forward with crosses in from a true winger, I say. It was good enough for Jimmy Hill and Graham Leggat at Fulham.

    Will go with the 60's style pitch we will be seeing in October.

  15. #1515
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    Forgot who but someone suggested that Warner is off, I have to admit I'd be a bit shocked unless we pick a different DM. Otherwise he's decent depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I think he is a potentially great keeper, with all the right physical tools. But his mental approach is incorrect and he does not have the emotional strength of purpose. He was slighted by the Julio Cesar situation when he should have seen it as an opportunity to learn and grow. A shame. He could have been a legend.
    Agree, he's not aggressive in his communication with the back line and is often too far off his line and with distribution. Not sure if Cesar had anything to do with it but it can't have helped.

  16. #1516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walms View Post
    There's only one, Will Johnson
    Ohhhhh, Will Johnson
    This is a good day in Walms World... Party Time... Excellent
    I echo this man I'm beyond excited with our signings and Johnson in particular have liked the guy for a while

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    I played 2-3-5 in high school too.

    I saw a story somewhere saying that Guardiola has brought a lot of that back.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    I could see out formation be something like

    4-4-2 (Diamond)
    New GK

    Beit-Moor-Perquis-Morrow
    Cheyrou
    Johnson-Bradley
    Osorio
    Seba-Altidore

    or

    4-2-3-1

    new GK
    Beit-Moor-Perquis-Morrow
    cheyrou-Bradley
    Johnson-Seba-Osorio
    Altidore

    or even 4-3-3

    New GK
    Beit-Moor-Perquis-Morrow
    Johnson-Cheyrou-Bradley
    altidore-Seba-osorio

    just loose set ups but good ideas where we can for in our key players, the players can be changed out but I think our balance and our team is much better off and solid vs last year

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    1) Speed matters a bit more now than it did even a couple of years ago. Every team in the league has multiple burners.
    I don't know. The Galaxy, Seattle and D.C. are all pretty damned slow.

    None of them suffer because of it. Sure it would help, but it's not detrimental in and of itself if you plan in a narrow system.

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    Most teams bring burners in later. We havn't really had a burner since Oduro - who's skill set points to the issue of burners in MLS.

    Speed doesn't score in this league (except for Castillo). If a guy was quick and could score, he wouldn't be playing here.


    What speed does is move teams out of shape. With the exception of Columbus and DCU who cross the ball hoping for a defensive miscue, in the case of DCU, or a bit of athletic brilliance from Kamara at CBUS, MLS has become a league where goals are created by the penetrating pass through lines. Think Pirlo to Silva or Kaka to Larin or Bradley to Seba. Those passes are easier when teams are out of their defensive shape in the midfield. Reacting to speed can do that. But, that's where a good DM comes into play for a team.

  21. #1521
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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    I don't know. The Galaxy, Seattle and D.C. are all pretty damned slow.

    None of them suffer because of it. Sure it would help, but it's not detrimental in and of itself if you plan in a narrow system.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Most teams bring burners in later. We havn't really had a burner since Oduro - who's skill set points to the issue of burners in MLS.

    Speed doesn't score in this league (except for Castillo). If a guy was quick and could score, he wouldn't be playing here.


    What speed does is move teams out of shape. With the exception of Columbus and DCU who cross the ball hoping for a defensive miscue, in the case of DCU, or a bit of athletic brilliance from Kamara at CBUS, MLS has become a league where goals are created by the penetrating pass through lines. Think Pirlo to Silva or Kaka to Larin or Bradley to Seba. Those passes are easier when teams are out of their defensive shape in the midfield. Reacting to speed can do that. But, that's where a good DM comes into play for a team.
    Teams that rely purely on speed on attack doesn't do well, IE Vancouver. You need other ingredients also.

    But speed does break down shape of defence esp on counter and allow others to exploit gaps and space. If you look at Seattle and LA during stretches of 2nd half, they were horrid, getting punished by teams that use speed to pull defence out of shape. Seattle and LA got away with taking a lot of risks and having a slow mid by having a stud DM. When Ozzie Alonso got injured for Seattle and Steve Gerrard was too slow to help out on defence for LA, these 2 teams got exposed badly. (And LA will be trying to figure out how to play Gerrard without sacrificing being solid defensively)

    Hence why I think a stud DM is a priority for TFC. Our midfield has average speed and lacks cohesion. We don't keep shape very well. A stud DM will cover up for a lot of these faults to a degree.
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    btw anyone have an opinion on whether Johnson is the same since the broken leg?
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    btw anyone have an opinion on whether Johnson is the same since the broken leg?
    he is. Less playing time because of a formation chance where he didn't have a role.

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    So, if you're a homegrown signing like Jay Chapman, you've got to be thinking, what did I get myself into? I'll never get to play in this midfield?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soccerpro View Post
    So, if you're a homegrown signing like Jay Chapman, you've got to be thinking, what did I get myself into? I'll never get to play in this midfield?
    it helps if you don't suck
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    it helps if you don't suck
    Chapman doesn't suck though he's just a young player

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Chapman doesn't suck though he's just a young player
    he'll be 22 in jan. I haven't seen much from Chapman that suggests he's better than Oso, let alone Kyle Bekker. The pro game seemed to have overwhelmed him so far.
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    Chapman really get's stuck in when hes playing. However fitness and positioning was clearly as issue. I think he is coachable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    Hence why I think a stud DM is a priority for TFC. Our midfield has average speed and lacks cohesion. We don't keep shape very well. A stud DM will cover up for a lot of these faults to a degree.
    This is my point. We had a balance issue way before we had a speed issue last season.

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    I'd point out there were a lot of individual mistakes on goals last year as well. Poor individual defending / decisions was definitely a theme. I will not miss Jackson for this reason.

    Not dismissing team speed, but the number of times someone just fell flat on their face during what should have been a manageable situation made me worry, a lot.

    Having what should be competent a RB and CB will help a ton.

 

 

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