The diamond was exposed badly with width in the NYRB game. I can't blame Vanney with switching systems after that. He knew it was figured out.Originally Posted by Bobo
The diamond was exposed badly with width in the NYRB game. I can't blame Vanney with switching systems after that. He knew it was figured out.
No way in hell does Giovinco get dropped back. He's there to score and setup goals, not to trackback or defend.
With a new coach, im sure he will close that titanic size gap between the mids and defenders which is the main reason why this team conceded so many goals.
Everything was exposed at one time or another, such is life with an inept tactician. The bottom line is that is the system that best suited his players. Football isn't a game of 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' where one formation trumps another. Good coaches tweak setups, not deploy a new one every time parking switches to the other side of the street. It's not as if this was a versatile team that could adapt to its opposition's strengths. When Vanney took over he constantly went on about "imposing our will" yet he seemed to be a step behind more often than not.
But those tweaks take time. Because of how narrow the diamond is, players need to rotate and cover where needed. That doesn't happen over 4-5 months. Real Salt Lake needed a one year of failure and midfield veterans like Grabavoy and Beckerman to make it work.
yup.
While I agree, I would have bought that excuse last season, not after an entire full year. I certainly don't feel as though he deserves a pass for this year for his incompetence. It just didn't seem as though he had a vision this team and that is quite concerning moving forward. It shouldn't take a professional coach this long. I mean Findley became the failed Oduro experiment 2.0, but even worse.
The one where we beat NYRB and clinched the playoffs.
That one.
I think that's a little unfair. There are two versions of this club: the one that beats up on the basement dwellers in this league and plays pretty dominant football. The one that gets defensively exposed and looks futile against the better sides in MLS. With a few exceptions, that's generally how the season went. We're a mid table team in every sense.
I'm not a big fan of Vanney, but as a matter of debate, where do you think this roster ranks compared to others in the league when you subtract Seba ( and similarly subtract the other team's best player)? To me, that's pretty revealing.
Someone has to get more out of the other two DP's or simply do a better job identifying talent. I can't think of a top MLS club right now that doesn't have a better backline and a more rangy / intimidating DM.
Look Seba's great, but player-for-player we are not quite a top team yet (same goes in the coaching department too) but I hesitate to put 100% of the blame in one bucket or the other.
You would be surprised how a new experienced coach would make a world of a difference.
IF, as Rollins suggests, we use TAM on a keeper, it ain't going to be Kennedy or somebody from within the league.
Who then?
Who would people like that is affordable?
Ah, the one where "we" were second-best most of the night and needed a defensive howler and superhuman solo effort. Not quite the 90-minute performance that negates poor showing after poor showing and playing so many guys in positions where they can't excel.
It's difficult to condemn the defensive personnel when their being led by a coach who doesn't seem to have a focus on defensive football. Not quite sure where his focus is to be honest. There aren't a lot of teams with fantastic defensive rosters. It's usually a case of decent guys who are put in positions to succeed within proper systems.
I'm not pinning all the blame on Vanney. Personally, I don't think Bez has done enough to keep his job either but Vanney has to be held accountable for poor team defense.
In any case, this thread is veering off-topic so perhaps a question to pose is: What is Vanney's preferred formation (assuming he stays) and what players are needed to ensure its success?
As I mentioned earlier, from my vantage point it shouldn't be too difficult (or very expensive) to secure a loan for a young keeper at a respectable European club. And I know that it's not always a good idea to sign people in an attempt to appease players but I would start in Italy where there are a tonne of quality keepers. You always prefer stability and years of control but I think that within the league's current financial landscape, loanee keepers is a smart way to go.
Last edited by Bobo; 11-02-2015 at 10:31 PM.
I don't know man. I look at the top six teams or so and at the very least their CBs are on-paper better than ours the minute they were signed. Kantari and Perquis came with damaged reputations when they showed up here (particularly the latter). Williams was never a starter quality on any other MLS team, I don't think ours should be any different. Nobody in the league is fielding a DM as slow as Cheyrou unless it's RSL with Beckerman and we all saw how that went this year. And while my knowledge of RBs in MLS isn't exactly fluid I'd bet we aren't ranking too favourably their either. Basically our case that we have the personelle back there is down to Morrow and that's about it. I get a new coach could get more out of the same group, but I highly doubt that's enough. The talent gap from the get-go is large.
I think the preferred formation has to be the 4-4-2 diamond. How else do you get both Seba and Altidore in the right spots?
Last edited by ag futbol; 11-02-2015 at 11:09 PM.
4-4-2 diamond needs a DM who can cover a lot of territory and an CAM who can feed the strikers. We don't have either.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
We need a DM who can cover more ground regardless of what formation we play, there is no way around that. The fact we don't have an out-and-out AM is mitigated by having multiple midfielders with excellent passing ranges and we have a box-to-box guy who (almost) plugs that gap.
Mannella + Chapman. Boom!
disagreed. 4-4-2 diamond needs a Javier Morales/Mauro Diaz calibre playmaker at CAM who can dictate the offence. Bradley from box to box role does not meet that criteria.
Kreis's RSL diamond had a midfield who were comfortable with ball, 2 CMs who covered a lot of ground and most importantly, drilled well as a team. 4-4-2 diamond is actually a hard formation to play esp defending. we're going to be a mid table team again if we do go 4-4-2 diamond.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
You might want to go rewatch that game then.
Vanney switching to a 4-2-3-1 that night completely shut down NYRBs midfield that night. It's one of the few things he got spot on this year.
This is what concerns me, there are too many CMs who don't excel at anything. In a league where both players and coaches are generally lacking in football IQ, I don't like the idea of systems where players need to know when to pick up each other's slack. I think when dealing with MLS caliber players, it's best to build a team of players who have defined roles and are asked to stick to them. As much as I like Cheyrou and Bradley, if you can find a CDM destroyer and the elusive CAM playmaker, you need to make the sacrifices. Warner and Delgado are worth keeping as cheaper "versatile" subs. Keeping Oso is obviously a given.
It would be quicker just to revisit the statistics. The MLS is defined by those sorts of games, it might have been a special night but TFC were nothing special themselves. They couldn't string together more than two passes for long periods of that match. NY dominated at various times, but suffered for poor finishing. If Seba hadn't scored that wondergoal and TFC only managed a draw, (or perhaps worse, had Zubar not whiffed on that cross like an amateur) you probably wouldn't look back on the performance quite as fondly.
Last edited by Bobo; 11-03-2015 at 12:52 AM.
Really gotta say we ran that game, all the way through
Did we? Sure, we limited an under strength NY side's chances, but we didn't create much ourselves.
Was it effective? Did we win? We were up 2-0 a good portion of the game. I'd rather dominate a game with less in stats than lose a game with more shots, possession etc
The Herc goal was incredibly lucky though to have Zubar completely fluff the clearance and then have Herc take maybe the weakest shot of his career right at Robles who essentially moved out of the way of his shot
DPs I would take over Altidore
Centrebacks
Pepe - Real Madrid
Attacking Mids
Sneijder - Galatasaray
Moutinho - Monaco
Danny - Zenit
Goulart - Guangzhou Evergrande
Defensive Mids
De Rossi - Roma
de Jong - Milan
Arzura - Tigre
Forwards
Ménez - Milan
Alexandre Pato - São Paulo
Torres - Atletico Madrid
Wingers
Orellana - Celta Vigo
Gervinho - Roma
Varela - Porto
Lavezzi - PSG
Ribery - Bayern
Robben - Bayern
Nani - Fenerbahçe
thats MLS for you though. you can win alot of games by capitalizing on the other teams mistakes
PEPE wont be the leader we need, he'll do fine himself but we need someone that can make those around him better
NANI we can convince, resurrect him like we did with giovinco, but then we have the similar situation of lacking defence. Although him and seba would be bagging a ton of goals
Pepe would be a disaster in this league, IMO.
First off, he would be a red card machine with PRO Refs.
Second, he doesn't exactly have the best reputation as a leader and good locker room guy.
That is essential in this league, where you have guys making literally 100 x more than some of their teammates.
DP's need to have certain off-field intangibles and be quality teammates, or you end up with a fractured room.
Pepe is not that guy.
Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/KurtLarSUN/status/661567592176287744
Cheyrou was likely on a one-year deal plus team option for year 2.
This is a good shout.
Young and relatively attainable.
Tigre have been punching above their weight in Argentina this season so he's for sure gonna have suitors from the bigger Argie clubs and abroad.
TAM could probably work for a player of that ilk.
Pepe has actually been really decent with regards to cards in the last two seasons, certainly better than Ciman
Very true
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