USMNT players a liability?

[cubr]

This is going to sound bitter given recent events, but it's something I have been thinking about for a while.

To me it seems like a liability having so many top USMNT players, they have to miss 5-6 games due to international duty (mostly friendlies) plus the games missed due to injury because of said friendlies.

I guess it is what it is, but it hurts the team quite a bit. The league non-windows certainly don't help, probably why they don't mind them on Canadian teams.

Here's to hoping Bradley comes back healed up to finish the season and Jozy gets his head together.

[jloome]

This is more an issue for Bez; you want the best players, and the best players are internationals. But the backups have to be that much more up to the tast if the starters are gone for long periods every two years.

[kwhisperer]

This is going to sound bitter given recent events, but it's something I have been thinking about for a while.

To me it seems like a liability having so many top USMNT players, they have to miss 5-6 games due to international duty (mostly friendlies) plus the games missed due to injury because of said friendlies.

I guess it is what it is, but it hurts the team quite a bit. The league non-windows certainly don't help, probably why they don't mind them on Canadian teams.

Here's to hoping Bradley comes back healed up to finish the season and Jozy gets his head together.

I worry about this as the league in general becomes more focused on big DPs. IF the gap in quality between DPs and regular players becomes too great across the league, there could be an issue since the big names are the ones likely to get called up .... the league's best assets would be at greater risk

On the other hand, other teams are still mostly getting older guys who are beyond the point where they get called up. We criticize other teams for getting older DPs but there is an advantage.

[Pint]

Iève been wonder this for a little while.

Over the next 3 years we are looking at the US team playing major tournaments every summer.
2016: Copa America
2017: Confederations cup (potentially) and Gold cup?
2018: World cup

All of these tournaments as well as friendlies and camps mean we lose out MB and JA for significant parts of each season. With the $10mil we have committed to those players would it make more sense to spend seba type money on another player who is a fringe international for a world power house (argentina, germany etc) and a lesser known DP?

If this league really wants to bring in and promote domestic national players (and by domestic i mean american) then they need to figure out a way to no have major investments miss large chunks of each season

[TorontoFC6fan]

Do you watch soccer ? All the the top teams have the same issue, not just TFC. Our problem is we have shit depth players.. There is no point in having Moore, Dike and Findley who are all crap. I mean you can't have all top players on your bench but you need serviceable players. None of those scrubs can be counted on to put a ball in the Goal. Then you have Creavalle, Hagglund and Zabaleta. Thats 6 players on your bench you can't really depend on. This team is loaded with dead weight. once a player goes down or gets a call up from his country. Here comes a couple scrubs to fill in. There's a big difference between serviceable players and scrubs. This team has too many scrubs and that's the issue.

[SirBobSaget]

The difference with the rest of the world is 1) MLS has a salary cap 2) MLS doesn't break for FIFA dates 3) USMNT schedules friendlies randomly 4) MLS plays through June which is the month when major tourneys run

Bradley played 25/34 games last season (74%). So far this year 13 / 20 games (65%), and now he's injured as usual when returning from international duty.

So the choice is between a player just as good as Bradley from Argentina/Italy/France/Spain/etc who is not quite good enough for their National team, but are still excellent (e.g. Gionvico), or 70% of a USMNT player.

[Richard]

I like Bradley/Altidore and everything they bring but getting someone of equal skill at their wage isn't that hard.

I wouldn't hesitate to drop them for another Giovinco type situation where they just are not good enough for the national team but are more than capable and can play 80% of the games.

Being honest I'm already tired of "Captain America", MLS scheduling, USSF and that fucking idiot Klinsmann.

[SirBobSaget]

Andre-Pierre Gignac would have been a good signing, went to Tigres UANL in June. Consistent scorer in League 1, 29 years old, a poor-mans Olivier Giroud type of striker. 5 million a year would have def brought him here, probably less, he's earning 4.5 in Mexico.

[Pint]

Do you watch soccer ? All the the top teams have the same issue, not just TFC. Our problem is we have shit depth players.. There is no point in having Moore, Dike and Findley who are all crap. I mean you can't have all top players on your bench but you need serviceable players. None of those scrubs can be counted on to put a ball in the Goal. Then you have Creavalle, Hagglund and Zabaleta. Thats 6 players on your bench you can't really depend on. This team is loaded with dead weight. once a player goes down or gets a call up from his country. Here comes a couple scrubs to fill in. There's a big difference between serviceable players and scrubs. This team has too many scrubs and that's the issue.

So what you are saying is you need your best/cap heavy players to be dependable and in the lineup as much as possible because when you dedicate as much cap space as a DP takes up you can't allocate enough room for to bring in quality players to fill out your roster.

[ag futbol]

The difference with the rest of the world is 1) MLS has a salary cap 2) MLS doesn't break for FIFA dates 3) USMNT schedules friendlies randomly 4) MLS plays through June which is the month when major tourneys run

Bradley played 25/34 games last season (74%). So far this year 13 / 20 games (65%), and now he's injured as usual when returning from international duty.

So the choice is between a player just as good as Bradley from Argentina/Italy/France/Spain/etc who is not quite good enough for their National team, but are still excellent (e.g. Gionvico), or 70% of a USMNT player.

Yep. We'll see how this pans out on the back end but the fixture schedule for the USMNT is rediculous. CONCACAF can get stuffed too with a gold cup every two years, complete joke. Why don't they just schedule US-Mexico as a best of seven summer series? That's all they want any how.

[TorontoFC6fan]

So what you are saying is you need your best/cap heavy players to be dependable and in the lineup as much as possible because when you dedicate as much cap space as a DP takes up you can't allocate enough room for to bring in quality players to fill out your roster.

like i've said there's a difference between serviceable bench players and scrubs. when you look at the Galaxy for example. They spent big money on DP's but also have serviceable bench players. when you look at our bench there's way too many scrubs and not enough serviceable players and that's the difference. The whole spending money on DP's so we don't have money left to sign serviceable bench players is just an excuse. Im sure TFC can find better players than f%&king Findley for the same price. Sure we can't pay top players to be on the bench but get some damn serviceable players. Whats the point of having Moore,Dike,Findley,Creavalle and hagglund sitting there.. 3 strikers that can't score a damn goal and We can't even trust Creavalle and Hagglung to give them any damn minutes. Do we really need 3 strikers that can not score a damn goal ? what if Seba and Jozy go down ? we're left starting 2 strikers that can't f&^king score a goal. This is why i said there's a difference between serviceable players and scrubs. A serviceable Striker is not going to replace Seba, but will come in and do a decent job. When was the last time you said wow Findley did a decent job out there ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

[Fort York Redcoat]

like i've said there's a difference between serviceable bench players and scrubs. when you look at the Galaxy for example. They spent big money on DP's but also have serviceable bench players. when you look at our bench there's way too many scrubs and not enough serviceable players and that's the difference. The whole spending money on DP's so we don't have money left to sign serviceable bench players is just an excuse. Im sure TFC can find better players than f%&king Findley for the same price. Sure we can't pay top players to be on the bench but get some damn serviceable players. Whats the point of having Moore,Dike,Findley,Creavalle and hagglund sitting there.. 3 strikers that can't score a damn goal and We can't even trust Creavalle and Hagglung to give them any damn minutes. Do we really need 3 strikers that can not score a damn goal ? what if Seba and Jozy go down ? we're left starting 2 strikers that can't f&^king score a goal. This is why i said there's a difference between serviceable players and scrubs. A serviceable Striker is not going to replace Seba, but will come in and do a decent job. When was the last time you said wow Findley did a decent job out there ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

When one's only example of a serviceable bench is LA one needs to learn more about the league.

There are bubble players on almost every team in this league.

And asking people if they watch soccer (European or otherwise) makes you sound like you can't convince someone with an actual point.

[ag futbol]

When one's only example of a serviceable bench is LA one needs to learn more about the league.

There are bubble players on almost every team in this league.

And asking people if they watch soccer (European or otherwise) makes you sound like you can't convince someone with an actual point.

I disagree, there are a few teams out there who have depth ( Vancouver and Dallas to name a couple). I'd consider it an admirable goal.

[Pint]

We have quality bench players the problem is we have had to start them far too often because of international duty. Jackson, warner, chapman etc are decent. We don't have the bench of Vancouver but that comes with drafting and developing well.

If you have or get a chance to check out tfc 2 games you can see we have some guys on the horizon who will either be great depth players or win spots in the starting lineup (Thomas, Roberts, hamilton, Babouli, ucello etc)

[TorontoFC6fan]

When one's only example of a serviceable bench is LA one needs to learn more about the league.

There are bubble players on almost every team in this league.

And asking people if they watch soccer (European or otherwise) makes you sound like you can't convince someone with an actual point.

Do you want me to sit here and name all the teams that have a better bench than us ? thats a long list my friend.. you can beat around the bush all you what but facts are facts.. look at the number of goals Moore, Findley and Dike has combine. Delgado has more goals than all of our bench strikers. what does that tell you ? garbage production from 3 scrub strikers.. these 3 players have 2 goal's combine on the season so far. that's garbage bench production from our strikers.. people love to defend these scrubs but never actually look at their numbers... Their numbers don't lie.


Here's Findley's stats
http://www.torontofc.ca/players/robbie-findley

Here's Luke Moore's Stats
http://www.torontofc.ca/players/luke-moore

like i've said there's a difference between serviceable players and scrubs. For example Chapman is a serviceable player. Those numbers above are scrub production from 2 strikers that can't score.

For god sake Oduro has 5 goals already. Yet someone will still reply to me with some bullshit excuse even after clearly seeing these numbers "well Moore hold's up the ball well" " Findley's works hard on defense"

[__wowza]

For god sake Oduro has 5 goals already. Yet someone will still reply to me with some bullshit excuse even after clearly seeing these numbers "well Moore hold's up the ball well" " Findley's works hard on defense"

i think you're confusing explanations with excuses.
numbers are great and all, but they can't account for certain things.

for example: robert earnshaw had 8 goals for us, 3 of which came in his first 4 games as a red. now, that's a fantastic number.. but two of those goals were from the penalty spot, and the other was when the ball was misplayed to the point where he literally walked it in. by your analysis, specifically the over-reliance on numbers and stats, robert earnshaw was one of the best strikers we've ever had.. except he totally wasn't.

as for oduro, did he score all these goals on a solo effort, or were they tap ins? were they against top teams in the league, or were they scored on the break against a team who had picked up a red and were down a goal? whenever you start discussing stats, you can't overlook variables. like your assumption that bright dike is a scrub. well.. that scrub also hasn't started a game this season and has only played for 20 minutes over the course of two. are you going to base your entire assessment of him off of 20 minutes? because if you are, then i'm going to need you to acknowledge that "by the numbers" he's been our most productive chance creator with an assist every 20 minutes played. the numbers are clearly there after all. while we're on that topic, luke moore has 1 goal and 3 assists playing 300 less minutes than oduro (who has zero assists). if moore should score two goals next game, would that make oduro the scrub?

what you're doing is using your argument to support the numbers, when really it should be the other way around. it's also best to remember that players fit different roles. not every forward is relied on to put it in the back of the net. that's why terms like "second striker", "winger" and "target man" were created. long story short, i get where you're coming from, but numbers aren't everything.

[trane]

This is more an issue for Bez; you want the best players, and the best players are internationals. But the backups have to be that much more up to the tast if the starters are gone for long periods every two years.

I was just going to say much the same, but more rudely, sometimes we look at the most silly issues, on this board. You want the best players, the best players tend to be national team players, but if you have them, OR/AND if you are a top club playing in multiple competition you need solid depth.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I disagree, there are a few teams out there who have depth ( Vancouver and Dallas to name a couple). I'd consider it an admirable goal.

The goal is admirable to strengthen one's bench. I'm not dismissing improvement. Trading 6 players at this moment would be ridiculous.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Do you want me to sit here and name all the teams that have a better bench than us ? thats a long list my friend.. you can beat around the bush all you what but facts are facts.. look at the number of goals Moore, Findley and Dike has combine. Delgado has more goals than all of our bench strikers. what does that tell you ? garbage production from 3 scrub strikers.. these 3 players have 2 goal's combine on the season so far. that's garbage bench production from our strikers.. people love to defend these scrubs but never actually look at their numbers... Their numbers don't lie.


Here's Findley's stats
http://www.torontofc.ca/players/robbie-findley

Here's Luke Moore's Stats
http://www.torontofc.ca/players/luke-moore

like i've said there's a difference between serviceable players and scrubs. For example Chapman is a serviceable player. Those numbers above are scrub production from 2 strikers that can't score.

For god sake Oduro has 5 goals already. Yet someone will still reply to me with some bullshit excuse even after clearly seeing these numbers "well Moore hold's up the ball well" " Findley's works hard on defense"

Still looking only at our depth or depth that we just traded.

You can keep syh head repeating yourself or you could see who else is out there. What you're doing doesn't seem to make you happy. I'd hope you'd want more for the team than just releasing these players and putting the kids in full time. That would be a trial by fire. I wouldn't want to see their development ruined like a few recent players on our team.


On the topic at hand - I'd say we are now a team that has overvalued both Canada and American national squad players. While the US Nationals have been of a higher quality in most cases, the expectations and money involved were and are, in most cases, overvalued.

There's still plenty of season to play but we all will need to see more from these players. Speedy recovery, General.

[OgtheDim]

I would say we no longer over value Canadian MNT players.

Just a side note, we were one of the teams who tried to trade up to get Larin at the draft. Would have probably cost us Morrow to do so.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I would say we no longer over value Canadian MNT players.

Just a side note, we were one of the teams who tried to trade up to get Larin at the draft. Would have probably cost us Morrow to do so.

I agree. We had to learn that the hard way so I don't imagine we'd do anything but the same with any other National team players...

Kantari has 16 caps for Morocco and captained in 2014. Just sayin'

ps- Not saying that every National player isn't working just that we've def found some to overvalue.

[barticusz]

This is going to sound bitter given recent events, but it's something I have been thinking about for a while.

To me it seems like a liability having so many top USMNT players, they have to miss 5-6 games due to international duty (mostly friendlies) plus the games missed due to injury because of said friendlies.

I guess it is what it is, but it hurts the team quite a bit. The league non-windows certainly don't help, probably why they don't mind them on Canadian teams.

Here's to hoping Bradley comes back healed up to finish the season and Jozy gets his head together.

Really?? It's a liability to have the best players from a nation?

Please tell me which teams in the world would prefer fringe players over those that represent their nations at the highest level. LAG lose many of their key players, SKC lose their top talent too.

/thread.. this is a pointless discussion.

[MartinUtd]

Really?? It's a liability to have the best players from a nation?

Please tell me which teams in the world would prefer fringe players over those that represent their nations at the highest level. LAG lose many of their key players, SKC lose their top talent too.

/thread.. this is a pointless discussion.

There's merit of the conversation. Take a look at AFCON players, they miss midseason in Europe but it'd work out perfectly here. Bring on Yaya Toure and Wilfried Bony.

[Areathrasher]

As of today, Bradley has played more mins for the USMNT in 2015 than he has for us. Given the clubs investment in him, that's a massive problem.

[barticusz]

There's merit of the conversation. Take a look at AFCON players, they miss midseason in Europe but it'd work out perfectly here. Bring on Yaya Toure and Wilfried Bony.

That's assuming they'd want to play here. The more this league grows the more the schedules will change to accommodate players. In the end, having USMNT players is great exposure of our team in the states and it's always good to have the best players you can get.

[T-boy]

As of today, Bradley has played more mins for the USMNT in 2015 than he has for us. Given the clubs investment in him, that's a massive problem.

Is this then a question about Bradley's dedication to his nation versus for his club? If he puts his body more on the line for the US team and comes back regularly injured, then isn't that an issue for the player individually rather than a problem for international call-ups per say?

I know a few RPB's have commented that Bradley looks like a genius playing for the USMNT and "a good player" when playing for TFC. He does appear to up his game for his country, but does he also put in extra effort meaning that he often gets injured/over exerts himself and comes back to TFC ailing.

OR, is this a problem with the USMNT training? Altidore also often comes back injured. Is this also the case for other USMNT players at other MLS clubs?

I don't think we can have a conversation about USMNT players in the MLS without also having a conversation about the above possible problems.

I don't recall Ashtone Morgan or Osorio always coming back injured from the CANMNT compared to our US internationals. Is that just a coincidence?

[Areathrasher]

Is this then a question about Bradley's dedication to his nation versus for his club? If he puts his body more on the line for the US team and comes back regularly injured, then isn't that an issue for the player individually rather than a problem for international call-ups per say?

I know a few RPB's have commented that Bradley looks like a genius playing for the USMNT and "a good player" when playing for TFC. He does appear to up his game for his country, but does he also put in extra effort meaning that he often gets injured/over exerts himself and comes back to TFC ailing.

OR, is this a problem with the USMNT training? Altidore also often comes back injured. Is this also the case for other USMNT players at other MLS clubs?

I don't think we can have a conversation about USMNT players in the MLS without also having a conversation about the above possible problems.

I don't recall Ashtone Morgan or Osorio always coming back injured from the CANMNT compared to our US internationals. Is that just a coincidence?

I have no question or doubts over his commitment to TFC.

The fact that the USMNT have gotten more mins out of him than TFC currently is the problem.

[Fort York Redcoat]

There's merit of the conversation. Take a look at AFCON players, they miss midseason in Europe but it'd work out perfectly here. Bring on Yaya Toure and Wilfried Bony.

Nice. That would be a benefit to the often ridiculed sched we have. I'd love to see that influx of CAF players choose teams here for that reason. I don't think it will be widespread anytime soon but with every year the number of CAF players grow. Very cool.

[pdubs]

It is a problem especially when they have to go to friendlies that don't mean much. Personally I want the USMNT captain on our team. We knew the situation going in when signing Bradley and Jozy. Bez needs to compensate the best he can for it.

It is not a surprise they will miss X games every year we and they knew the stakes going in. MLS should do more to make sure USMNT players play more MLS games since they target these players to represent the league.

[Ultra & Proud]

For god sake Oduro has 5 goals already. Yet someone will still reply to me with some bullshit excuse even after clearly seeing these numbers "well Moore hold's up the ball well"

I think I can attribute Oduro passing Moore in goals recently with the bullshit excuse that Moore has been on the injured list in an ankle cast for about a month.