The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[Oldtimer]

I'd wait until the end of August before declaring his position is secure. All it will take is an injury to Giovinco and a bad run of form to bring out the pitchforks. Regardless, I still believe we should stick with him until mid 2016 at least.

Why would Giovinco's status or our winning record (when it's due to the players) affect whether or not Vanney is a good coach? The two are totally separate. I am starting to see pretty good tactical adjustments on Vanney's part. Undoubtedly experience, plus the quality of the staff around him for him to learn from is starting to show some benefit. He had some pretty astute moves against DC, with the Altidore substitution once DC had tired legs being tactically brilliant and likely led to the win.

[Lennon]

I wish I lol'ed at this thread earlier. We were like 80%+ to make the playoffs when it was started lol.

[Cashcleaner]

[Red CB Toronto]

Dam not even sure the title is relevant at this point, utting Jozy on even just 10 min was genius, a great coaching decision.

[Blixa]

I'll be happy to eat my words.

[Shakes McQueen]

Still a lot of season to go, but this should hopefully put off the usual deconstruction of who needs to lose their job for a while, at least.

Our place in the standings is pretty comfortable right now - particularly considering we have anywhere from two to four games in hand on the teams around us.

[barticusz]

Too early to say I told you so.. over and over and over and over again? Nah.. I told you so. Close this down.

[billyfly]

Too early to say I told you so.. over and over and over and over again? Nah.. I told you so. Close this down.

Why not merge it with "Gio best player in league thread" as i believe both are related.

[ensco]

Why not merge it with "Gio best player in league thread" as i believe both are related.

Thank you

[OgtheDim]

I think we are playing really well + have Giovinco firing on all cylinders.

Without him, its a different mindset as to who to get the ball to, but we are still good enough within MLS to come out with strong results.

[barticusz]

I think we are playing really well + have Giovinco firing on all cylinders.

Without him, its a different mindset as to who to get the ball to, but we are still good enough within MLS to come out with strong results.

This. The team has been playing great for the last couple months. Giovinco is a stud but the team is doing great overall.

[notthesun]

Giovinco is earning us the points but Vanney deserves massive credit for re-working the midfield. The double pivot wasn't working and he recognized it - now Cheyrou is the perfect deep-lying playmaker and Bradley is galloping through the middle. And he's got his two wingers focused on maintaining possession and looking for passes inside to get Giovinco more touches (last I checked we were the lowest or second-lowest crossing team in the league - and it's working).

He's also gotten more than something out of Morgan who looked like he was dead in the water coming into this season. And the backline in general has looked very solid recently (he's learned his lesson on high lines).

Absolutely no way we look this good with Nelsen or Winter or any other stubborn coach we've had who's been set in their ways. Like I said in the match thread, I'm happy to admit I think I was dead wrong about him.

[ManUtd4ever]

Giovinco is earning us the points but Vanney deserves massive credit for re-working the midfield. The double pivot wasn't working and he recognized it - now Cheyrou is the perfect deep-lying playmaker and Bradley is galloping through the middle. And he's got his two wingers focused on maintaining possession and looking for passes inside to get Giovinco more touches (last I checked we were the lowest or second-lowest crossing team in the league - and it's working).

He's also gotten more than something out of Morgan who looked like he was dead in the water coming into this season. And the backline in general has looked very solid recently (he's learned his lesson on high lines).

Absolutely no way we look this good with Nelsen or Winter or any other stubborn coach we've had who's been set in their ways. Like I said in the match thread, I'm happy to admit I think I was dead wrong about him.

Well said.

[Alonso]

Giovinco is earning us the points but Vanney deserves massive credit for re-working the midfield. The double pivot wasn't working and he recognized it - now Cheyrou is the perfect deep-lying playmaker and Bradley is galloping through the middle. And he's got his two wingers focused on maintaining possession and looking for passes inside to get Giovinco more touches (last I checked we were the lowest or second-lowest crossing team in the league - and it's working).

He's also gotten more than something out of Morgan who looked like he was dead in the water coming into this season. And the backline in general has looked very solid recently (he's learned his lesson on high lines).

Absolutely no way we look this good with Nelsen or Winter or any other stubborn coach we've had who's been set in their ways. Like I said in the match thread, I'm happy to admit I think I was dead wrong about him.

I agree with everything that you've written here.

This team should be left alone (for the most part, key pieces especially, coach included) for a few years to ferment.

Their is great potential here, including the young up and coming players.

We are set up for a good 5 years with this teams DP contracts and great young up and coming players.

[mistercorporate]

I agree with everything that you've written here.

This team should be left alone (for the most part, key pieces especially, coach included) for a few years to ferment.

Their is great potential here, including the young up and coming players.

We are set up for a good 5 years with this teams DP contracts and great young up and coming players.

The best part of all this is, once those 5 years pass, we should have more quality players coming up from our Academy system to fill in for any retiring players...

[Oldtimer]

Why not merge it with "Gio best player in league thread" as i believe both are related.

Well said!

[Initial B]

Should the title of the thread be renamed "Vanney: The Kreis Chrysalis 2"?

[PopePouri]

Should the title of the thread be renamed "Vanney: The Kreis Chrysalis 2"?

The second coming of Kreis.

[Brooker]

Can everyone in here please knock on wood.

[Ivy]

3rd isn't good enough... We spent 100million and renovated our stadium. We should be first overall, and have games in hand.
BS.

[ensco]

Suggest we all save ourselves 390 pages and just pick it up from this thread...

http://realcavsfans.com/community/in...s-coach.44309/

[Oldtimer]

Suggest we all save ourselves 390 pages and just pick it up from this thread...

http://realcavsfans.com/community/in...s-coach.44309/

Well for Real fun, you could see this RSL thread from 2007 on Kreis:

http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/...-kreis.610920/

I just don't like the fact that he's not a proven coach. What we need right now is someone who has experience laying out their game plan and getting players to buy into it (it could be argued that JK is doing that). Canning Ellinger was the right thing to do, but we should have replaced him with someone with more experience and a history of managing winning sides. Dumping JK into the head coaching role had a very amateurish/desperate feel to it, and that's not something our team really needed this year.

It would have been better to bring in someone who has a better coaching resume and let Jason learn from them as an assistant if he was going to someday be handed the reigns.

Klinnsman would have been a better choice but we'll live with what we have.

I'm just curious what you don't like about Kreis. Yeah, he hasn't won much but he took over a team in shambles and it did improve, some, under him.

I'm not saying he's gonna be a great coach, but I think it's too early to write him off. You guys are there, though, so you have obviously different insight, hence my question.

RSL PPG under John Ellinger = 0.897
RSL PPG under Jason Kreis = 0.880

RSL % of games won under John Ellinger = 22
RSL % of games won under Jason Kreis = 20

RSL % of games with at least a draw under John Ellinger = 46
RSL % of games with at least a draw under Jason Kreis = 48

Or my favourite...

everyone here should be on their knees praying that kreis does not suck total ass in his second season. i hate coaching revolving doors, but i refuse to put up with the same old average crap. if kreis starts off next year like ellinger did his second season, start looking for the fire kreis threads from me. he hasnt proven much yet, hopefully he can prove me wrong and become a decent coach. i hate to say it, but im betting against him.

doesn't sound too different from us, does it?

[ensco]

Oldtimer, you love the Kreis analogy, but it's just one data point, and not very relevant - totally different mgmt setup, and a long time ago now

I agree that Vanney should be given a year, and I said that lots wanted him gone.

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer, you love the Kreis analogy, but it's just one data point, and not very relevant - totally different mgmt setup, and a long time ago now

I agree that Vanney should be given a year, and I said that lots wanted him gone.

It's more the supporter attitudes that I was pointing out, they are quite funny as they mirror us so well! I have no idea how good Vanney will turn out. He seems to be tactically-minded and willing to learn. I like the technical way the team is playing right now. Those are all good attributes. Just like with the "Deathwatch" statement, calling him Kreis 2.0 is wayyyy too early at this point.

There was/is a "Fire Jim Curtin" thread in the Philly section on Big Soccer too.

They are doing ok now...

Another good analogy. Supporters tend to be very impatient. When management mirrors that and fires the coach every year, you end up like NY were for many years, going on-and-on without ever winning anything.

[Areathrasher]

There was/is a "Fire Jim Curtin" thread in the Philly section on Big Soccer too.

They are doing ok now...

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Ive always called for him to stay for at least this season. That being said i understand why people wanted him gone (8 years of garbage and mismanagement). My biggest thing was not so much that they wanted to rush him out the door but that a) they had no reasonable potential replacement and b)hated the fact that we had fired so many coaches in the past but wanted to do the same here. Super happy to see him stay, its still to early to call him a success but he has done well.

[trane]

Vanney seems to have put it together, great, but still does not mean that with the start of the season, we should not have been looking around for a proven coach, as the signs were not positive until this run started. Clearly now he has earned an opportunity, but lets face it a stretch of horrible games and that picture changes. It is the nature of the job.

[barticusz]

Vanney seems to have put it together, great, but still does not mean that with the start of the season, we should not have been looking around for a proven coach, as the signs were not positive until this run started. Clearly now he has earned an opportunity, but lets face it a stretch of horrible games and that picture changes. It is the nature of the job.

................ We started the season with SEVEN STRAIGHT ROAD MATCHES... you cannot judge a manager based on such a small sample size that is so heavily skewed against them. I talked about the fact that he's mostly been in charge of road matches and to confirm that, he's managed 24 MLS matches thus far. 58% of those matches have been on the road. He's just finally catching up to having played an equal number at home and away which is a much better sample to crucify a manager over (if you feel the lust to do so).

We started the season off 3-4 on the road. We're now 4-4-1 on the road. How is that a horrible stretch? We have the best road record in the league (points wise), and we're the third best road team (points per game).

"Now he has earned an opportunity" - man, we as a fanbase called out MLSE all the time for their snap judgements in the past however we consistently raise the pitchforks prematurely.

[trane]

................ We started the season with SEVEN STRAIGHT ROAD MATCHES... you cannot judge a manager based on such a small sample size that is so heavily skewed against them. I talked about the fact that he's mostly been in charge of road matches and to confirm that, he's managed 24 MLS matches thus far. 58% of those matches have been on the road. He's just finally catching up to having played an equal number at home and away which is a much better sample to crucify a manager over (if you feel the lust to do so).

We started the season off 3-4 on the road. We're now 4-4-1 on the road. How is that a horrible stretch? We have the best road record in the league (points wise), and we're the third best road team (points per game).

"Now he has earned an opportunity" - man, we as a fanbase called out MLSE all the time for their snap judgements in the past however we consistently raise the pitchforks prematurely.

I will not say that your few is not valid. Clearly, it is, and right now Vanney is looking good. But road or not, I think 24 games is a fair sample size, and particularly for me, was not the record by the quality on the pitch particularly on the defensive side. Even if you consider that he was mostly on the road you would figure he would get more draws.

[barticusz]

I think we just fundamentally differ on how long a manager should be given prior to determining their fate. 24 isn't even 3/4 of a single season. If we're using that as a template to fire coaches we're never going to create any consistency.

To bring in hockey (shudder), I loved what Babcock had to say in his introduction. He talked about the need to create a state where players felt safe to do their job. There's so much media scrutiny and overreaction to everything in Toronto that it becomes impossible to achieve anything.

This is why I wanted Nelson to be given time and was upset with his firing, and also why I now will fully support giving vanney at LEAST 2 full years, but my preference would be 3. Let the team grow together, just once and then we can see how that will turn out.