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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    You don't think Nelsen was lost, but you're asking us to accept your opinion on Vanney. Look, I see problems in all of these guys because we've never hired an experienced coach or had a balanced roster. But Nelsen was completely clueless. Without Defoe scoring, we were utterly lost.
    But we could defend to an extent. He wasn't great at all but I was good with giving him those last 10 matches to sink or swim. Sure he'd be gone by now but things would have been much different if Nelsen was allowed to blow the season on his own. Maybe we would have looked in a different direction in the off season than Vanney. Too late now.

    And Nelsen wasn't totally lost. Just going forward. We were organized and defended okay. Not great but okay.

    Now take Altidore and Giovinco out and do we have 9 points? Does Vanney adjust the tactics to put up a fight? Nope. He fails just like Nelsen did.

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    And enough Sigi and Bruce talk. They aren't coming and neither is Bradley's Dad.

    Maybe the brass will let Vanney have the year to learn on the job. At least I know my season tix will still be about $200 next season too so all won't be lost. I am again staying my Vanney out talk until after the New England match. Let's see who he plays and what his plan is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    But we could defend to an extent. He wasn't great at all but I was good with giving him those last 10 matches to sink or swim. Sure he'd be gone by now but things would have been much different if Nelsen was allowed to blow the season on his own. Maybe we would have looked in a different direction in the off season than Vanney. Too late now.

    And Nelsen wasn't totally lost. Just going forward. We were organized and defended okay. Not great but okay.

    Now take Altidore and Giovinco out and do we have 9 points? Does Vanney adjust the tactics to put up a fight? Nope. He fails just like Nelsen did.

    By the time Nelsen got fired our defence and midfield were in shambles. Worse than it is now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    But we could defend to an extent. He wasn't great at all but I was good with giving him those last 10 matches to sink or swim. Sure he'd be gone by now but things would have been much different if Nelsen was allowed to blow the season on his own. Maybe we would have looked in a different direction in the off season than Vanney. Too late now.

    And Nelsen wasn't totally lost. Just going forward. We were organized and defended okay. Not great but okay.

    Now take Altidore and Giovinco out and do we have 9 points? Does Vanney adjust the tactics to put up a fight? Nope. He fails just like Nelsen did.
    I'm with you, always wanted to ride out Nelson. But now that Vanney's here I'll support giving him enough time to truly justify whether or not he's good enough.

    It's funny because they're the polar opposite of one another.. Under Nelson this team had no clue moving foward but could defend. Under Vanney (when playing the way he initially wanted them to play) they look great moving forward but end up getting countered all the time. Personally I'll take a team that looks great moving forward over a defensive team any day. At least that way we have a chance to cheer for goals rather than be happy with constant draws.

    You keep mentioning stuff like.. "take Altidore and Giovinco away" and it changes things. Nelson basically had the same situation available for him. He also had 3 DPs. Gilberto and Defoe. Sure their style was different, but where Nelson failed was making them gel. Vanney has already shown that he can get the most out of these guys plus Bradley (I'm not in the Bradley's been poor camp.. ) And you're once again contradicting yourself, by stating that Vanney doesn't alter the tactics to put up a fight. You stated that he did just that by putting oso on and in doing so the team no longer played in a 4-4-2 but started to press higher up and create more opportunities against Houston.

    Give Vanney the benefit of the doubt and lets see how the team is looking come our first July game. Thats 5 home games and 2 away games. I'd expect us to be at or above .500 at that time.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by barticusz View Post
    I'm with you, always wanted to ride out Nelson. But now that Vanney's here I'll support giving him enough time to truly justify whether or not he's good enough.

    It's funny because they're the polar opposite of one another.. Under Nelson this team had no clue moving foward but could defend. Under Vanney (when playing the way he initially wanted them to play) they look great moving forward but end up getting countered all the time. Personally I'll take a team that looks great moving forward over a defensive team any day. At least that way we have a chance to cheer for goals rather than be happy with constant draws.

    You keep mentioning stuff like.. "take Altidore and Giovinco away" and it changes things. Nelson basically had the same situation available for him. He also had 3 DPs. Gilberto and Defoe. Sure their style was different, but where Nelson failed was making them gel. Vanney has already shown that he can get the most out of these guys plus Bradley (I'm not in the Bradley's been poor camp.. ) And you're once again contradicting yourself, by stating that Vanney doesn't alter the tactics to put up a fight. You stated that he did just that by putting oso on and in doing so the team no longer played in a 4-4-2 but started to press higher up and create more opportunities against Houston.

    Give Vanney the benefit of the doubt and lets see how the team is looking come our first July game. Thats 5 home games and 2 away games. I'd expect us to be at or above .500 at that time.
    Nothing is absolute. He put Osorio on and the match changed. Credit due. Other times he misses the boat and generally we need to make half time adjustments because our tactics were off from the start and we're trailing and looking dire. Again since I'm not sure of his influence because who can say if anything, good or bad is Vanney. Maybe the team ignores everything he says and Bradley runs the show. Honestly who knows? Then I am giving Vanney a bad rap for being tactically inept. In that case he'd just be inept at actually leading the team. Again, no one knows. We'll see after he's fired. Whenever that happens.

    And that's the first time I said take Altidore and Giovinco away. I early pointed to their quality as to the reason we have what we have to allude that a decent amount of goals and solid play are through individual acts of talent. Something Vanney has no more control over that the individual mistakes that people mentioned earlier. Forget those moments and judge him and our team by the play between those moments. If you think that's good enough and you're happy then great. With what we have and what we've been through so far I expect more than dealing with more learning curves.

  6. #186
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    In June July and August 2014 TFC under Nelsen won 4 drew 5 lost 5. In his last 5 games they were 2-1-2. The team under Vanney needs to be significantly better than that.

    i really enjoyed the New England game, but it didn't really answer whether Vanney has made progress as a coach. The weakness demonstrated on the field has been giving up goals at the worst possible time, again and again, often because of poor tactics or personnel choices (in the case of Dallas, both). Off the field, his repeated statements that "we had talked about that" worry me because coaching isn't about talking, it's about doing. Doing again and again and again so the desired habit becomes automatic.

    In this context, the play of the club versus New England suggested that he has been able to find the right balance in some respects with his current players. The diamond worked and he is getting much more out of Bradley, and it looked like they had actually practiced the formation rather than "talking about it." However, the weakness of the formation is the space on the wings and New England scored from there, in a predictable way, so Vanney clearly hasn't solved that part. And they were pretty lucky not to concede a late goal. So for me, the jury is still out on Vanney. Let's hope Jozy's injury isn't serious so the team has a chance to get on a roll and make this discussion moot.

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    And - that would mean we would need to be 3-1-1 over the next five games for Vanney's TFC to be achieving more than Nelsen's. 2-1-2 would give us seven points and we would have 17 from 14, just like Nelsen, albeit with far more losses under Vanney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    And - that would mean we would need to be 3-1-1 over the next five games for Vanney's TFC to be achieving more than Nelsen's. 2-1-2 would give us seven points and we would have 17 from 14, just like Nelsen, albeit with far more losses under Vanney.
    You could tell that the Nelson firing had to do with some intense in-fighting with him and Bez/Lewieke though. I don't know what it was exactly but there was something pissing them all off that was more than just the record that led to the firing.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupont View Post
    You could tell that the Nelson firing had to do with some intense in-fighting with him and Bez/Lewieke though. I don't know what it was exactly but there was something pissing them all off that was more than just the record that led to the firing.
    Agree 100%. Seemed very different than from the Winter firing. Wasn't about salvaging the season, it was about eliminating conflict.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Detroit_TFC View Post
    Agree 100%. Seemed very different than from the Winter firing. Wasn't about salvaging the season, it was about eliminating conflict.
    Nelsen was always Kevin Payne's guy, pre Lewieke. I think he gave him a chance to show his worth, but the minute there was tension between them or Nelsen and Bez the writing was on the wall
    Side before self, every time - The one and only Billy Bremner
    Supporting TFC and Leeds United : Never a dull moment

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    When do we even out in away and home games compared to last season? Hard to compare otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    And - that would mean we would need to be 3-1-1 over the next five games for Vanney's TFC to be achieving more than Nelsen's. 2-1-2 would give us seven points and we would have 17 from 14, just like Nelsen, albeit with far more losses under Vanney.
    I don't think it's much of a stretch to say this team - despite its flaws - is better off than last years. We actually get goals from multiple players on a regular basis. When we get to an equal number of home and away games we'll probably have a better record than 2014 and that's really the apples to apples comparison.

    Vanney vs. Nelsen is mostly a moot discussion at this point. Nobody sitting in our position would ever have Nelsen back vs. a coach with a track record. Really it's all about how much time you give Vanney and that's about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Vanney vs. Nelsen is mostly a moot discussion at this point. Nobody sitting in our position would ever have Nelsen back vs. a coach with a track record. Really it's all about how much time you give Vanney and that's about it.
    Well said.

  14. #194
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    The first two home games have been pretty shit. This team is not out of the woods by a long way. We are not in last place because we spent $25+ million on three DP's.

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    Objectively, I'd say Vanney is probably on increasingly thin ice with the management - Bez needs someone to hold accountable, lest the focus turn to him; and MLSE want to see some return on that gigantic expenditure of money quickly. Both of those factors conspire to suggest that Vanney probably has very little rope, much like Nelson did. Coaches are easy to replace, and an easy focus for blame - all of this is true, regardless of my (or your) personal feelings.

    The team isn't completely off-the-deep-end, irredeemably terrible or anything, but I suspect MLSE wanted more than "hovering around mediocre" after this many games.

    Subjectively? I don't know, man. How many more coaches do we burn through, before we try something radical like giving one a couple of full seasons to assert themselves? I'm pretty sure TFC has literally gone through more coaches than it has seasons of existence. The players have also been churned through the turnstile more times than I can count. We've seen teams find success with a slate of expensive DPs, and we've seen teams find success "on the cheap". One thing those teams tend to have in common, is not firing their manager every 8 months.

    And I say that as someone who is absolutely not sure if Vanney is the right guy for the job, but just... man. Really? Another one?
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    And I say that as someone who is absolutely not sure if Vanney is the right guy for the job, but just... man. Really? Another one?
    This is it right here for me. Do I love Vanney, nope.....not by any means. But coach #10? ugh.

    At one point we have to stick with something and at least let it ride for a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I don't think it's much of a stretch to say this team - despite its flaws - is better off than last years. We actually get goals from multiple players on a regular basis. When we get to an equal number of home and away games we'll probably have a better record than 2014 and that's really the apples to apples comparison.

    Vanney vs. Nelsen is mostly a moot discussion at this point. Nobody sitting in our position would ever have Nelsen back vs. a coach with a track record. Really it's all about how much time you give Vanney and that's about it.
    End of the season is what he should get. It's what Nelsen should've gotten.
    That's the only way to get an accurate idea of what he is capable of.

    The issue this team has is leadership on the pitch. It's clear IMO - that missing a guy like Caldwell is the major part of our defensive problems. Guys are looking lazy and disorganized back there. people are occupying space and leaving players wide open in the box. This is how we are getting scored on. This is how we are losing games.

    I've been saying this for 2 seasons now - we need a replacement Caldwell. Someone who can organize the defense. This isn't something Perquis can do and we shouldn't let him try and learn it on the job either. You don't just learn how to do it at 31 years of age. We need someone who has been doing it for years and can come in here and do that for us.

    This isn't about getting rid of Perquis, he's a good player - it's about getting a Caldwell replacement - someone who is healthy and younger and will last a few more years.

    You can bitch and complain about Vanney all you want - but in a game - players turn off - Vanney can't always re-activate them from the bench. That's why you have on-field leaders. Guys who are right beside the lazy ones who will scream at them to wake the fuck up. That's their job, and right now, no one is leading the TFC defense.
    Last edited by jabbronies; 05-19-2015 at 09:43 AM.

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    Now we have to learn how to win at home and do it without Jozy.

    Not looking good.

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    I do not get the logic of given an completely unproven coach more time, what makes anyone think that he will get good enough??? Has he not had the team for some 30 games and the team is more or less the same? what am I missing? What does anyone see in Vanney to believe that he will get better???


    We have been shit, in large part not because we have had 10 coaches, but because most of our hiring of coaches have been underwhelming to say the least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    I do not get the logic of given an completely unproven coach more time, what makes anyone think that he will get good enough??? Has he not had the team for some 30 games and the team is more or less the same? what am I missing? What does anyone see in Vanney to believe that he will get better???


    We have been shit, in large part not because we have had 10 coaches, but because most of our hiring of coaches have been underwhelming to say the least.
    The reason I think the majority are willing to give Vanney the balance of the season is that TFC does not have a proven track record of hiring the right guy...

    Trying to find the right coach is an off season thing not mid season move IMO. Unless someone is available which will be after European season is finished and even that is a risky situation

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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    I do not get the logic of given an completely unproven coach more time, what makes anyone think that he will get good enough??? Has he not had the team for some 30 games and the team is more or less the same? what am I missing? What does anyone see in Vanney to believe that he will get better???


    We have been shit, in large part not because we have had 10 coaches, but because most of our hiring of coaches have been underwhelming to say the least.
    Line up an experienced coach with a track record (whether in MLS or Europe) and I agree. They need to make the case that this new manager has a track record of winning (with a budget preferably) at a level at least equal to MLS, else otherwise what is the point? We will just continue to spin the wheels. Vanney may be inexperience but now he has some experience.

    Unless we have that guy lined up via $$$ then letting Vanney have the season might be the best course. If we don't make the playoffs with the advantages this division allows us then he will be gone, probably Bez too. I think for Bez we need to see how creative he can get during this summer transfer window.

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    The logic of not canning Vanney anytime soon: who the heck is supposed to find, select & hire a new coach now?

    Bez? I think he has excellent knowledge of MLS roster rules; decent knowledge of North American players; he's learning about international players. I don't think he has the stature or experience to find & hire a top-notch coach. I think he would tend to hire another learn-on-the-job guy that would not threaten Bez himself.

    Is Leiweke supposed to find & hire a new coach, with one foot out the door? I would rather not. Maybe MLSE or the tri-headed ownership monster? Yeah no.

    Be careful what you wish for. If Vanney is fired soon, this is what you will probably end up with, in order of likelihood:

    - Robin Fraser. That's been a common TFC path, hiring the replacement in advance. No thanks. No major or proven upgrade to Vanney. Not worth upsetting the apple cart for, shortly before TFC & MLSE management will change. With Fraser in charge, we might as well already sticky the "Fraser Deathwatch Thread" for May 2016 at the latest.

    - Ask MLS head office for some currently out-of-work MLS re-tread project: no thanks.

    - Mike Petke: not a bad choice. Many NY supporters were sad to see him go -- at least at the end. Not really a proven choice either though. Partway through his tenure I remember there were more debates about Petke, from supporters and journalists. Many people were not convinced by him. In any case, after Petke was recently sacked by NYRB under questionable circumstances, it would be better for both him & us if he is hired by a stable management & ownership group, not by the shaky setup we currently have in place.

    - After the Dutch experiment, maybe some other exotic escapade? Italian? Latvian? Who knows? I'm not principally opposed, but for anything new like that, we definitely need a rock-solid upper management team in place first, that has the knowledge & backbone to both start that up correctly, and to see it through the occasional bad times.

    I'm not convinced about Vanney either. I know that it would be bad if TFC doesn't make the playoffs; or even just slithers through the season and barely makes it to the post-season. What would be even worse though: if TFC hires another unconvincing coach partway into the season; or even a decent coach but without stable & supporting upper management in place. We would rotate through another 15 or more players; blow some more allo-cash, draft picks, etc. in a frantic gamble to make the playoffs; maybe squeak into the playoffs or not. The new MLSE soccer president comes in a few months, watches for a while, then pulls the plug again approx. a year from now, in favour of his own candidate. We get our 11th coach, another 15 players churned through the roster, and more trading of long-term assets for short-term scrambles.

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    ^Petke is interesting. Certainly entertain the idea especially with his Supporters Shield win. Even wit some of his success not sure how much separates him from Vanney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    I do not get the logic of given an completely unproven coach more time, what makes anyone think that he will get good enough??? Has he not had the team for some 30 games and the team is more or less the same? what am I missing? What does anyone see in Vanney to believe that he will get better???


    We have been shit, in large part not because we have had 10 coaches, but because most of our hiring of coaches have been underwhelming to say the least.
    I'm not specifically arguing for any course of action - I'm expressing exasperation at the idea that firing ANOTHER coach with less than a full season's worth of games on the job, might be the "solution" here.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    The logic of not canning Vanney anytime soon: who the heck is supposed to find, select & hire a new coach now?
    If they just want an experienced manager that has no MLS experience then the upcoming weeks would be the time to do it. Some will be looking for opportunities and if Tim L and the MLSE crew want to go splash some bucks around and start flying families over to look at condos then who knows who you could get.

    It's almost time to stop the MLS experienced manager talk because almost everyone only wants two guys who qualify for this and neither will be coming here.

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    And I am still going to hold off on my Anti-Vanney stuff for a bit. These next two home games will be very important for Vanney. Jozy or no Jozy, if we stink the joint out the next two games then there will have to be some hard questions being asked.

    But as seen on the weekend, I wouldn't be surprised if Bradley puts the team on his back for a few matches as he does seem to support Vanney and the timing is good for him to pick up his form with the Gold Cup looming.

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    Well if Vanney does not get wins now that we will be home for a while, we will once again face a massive up hill battle to make the playoffs. So I hope that he does get it together. I will say that the last stretch has been somewhat better.

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    On the day we're back in the Premiership, it's hard not to look at what Norwich has done in comparison to TFC. We were doing ok, not far off the promotion/playoff spots when our manager was fired mid way through the year. Brought in a relatively inexperienced, 33 year old to take over the team in Alex Neil. He took 49 points from the last 22 games. We finished third and won the playoff final. Back in the Prem.

    If TFC are going the young, inexperienced manager route, I don't know why we can't get one who immediately proves his mettle the way Neil has.

  29. #209
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    congratz...big day for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    On the day we're back in the Premiership, it's hard not to look at what Norwich has done in comparison to TFC. We were doing ok, not far off the promotion/playoff spots when our manager was fired mid way through the year. Brought in a relatively inexperienced, 33 year old to take over the team in Alex Neil. He took 49 points from the last 22 games. We finished third and won the playoff final. Back in the Prem.

    If TFC are going the young, inexperienced manager route, I don't know why we can't get one who immediately proves his mettle the way Neil has.
    Mate you have a premier league team he's simply come in and just said go out there and have it lads.

 

 

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