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  1. #1681
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Lots of rose coloured glasses around here. I'm glad we won, but jeez, this is ... wow. Did I miss something, is this the thread only for people who watched the TFC highlights or something?

    Zubar missed a free header in the first half. Grella and BWP screwed up a wide open net. Plus multiple other good sequences.

    Before we scored, the count on dangerous moves was something like 8-2 for NY. We were completely outplayed between the 15th and 75th minutes.

    But the whole bend don't brake thing is a tactic, and one that continues to work particularly well for us against NYRB. We had 5 shots on target to their 1. Us sitting back and allowing them only half chances was by design. If Vanney had done something else, I think it's likely we wouldn't be sitting here today talking about an opening day win.

    What should he have done instead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Lots of rose coloured glasses around here. I'm glad we won, but jeez, this is ... wow. Did I miss something, is this the thread only for people who watched the TFC highlights or something?

    Zubar missed a free header in the first half. Grella and BWP screwed up a wide open net. Plus multiple other good sequences.

    Before we scored, the count on dangerous moves was something like 8-2 for NY. We were completely outplayed between the 15th and 75th minutes.
    I'm sorry, but if you consider this:



    to be a "free header" I will gladly continue to wear rose coloured glasses. I will bear the burden of balancing out against those who seem incapable of allowing themselves any TFC related joy.

    Look, Red Bulls carried the play, of course they did. And they had other good sequences. But that's all they were... good sequences. Not good chances. The whole point of playing defensive counter football is to frustrate the other team, allowing them possession but denying them opportunities. That is a perfect description of the game. If you disagree with this you are free to go through WhoScored's match commentary alongside the full MLS Live replay and examine every shot attempt the Red Bulls mustered as I just did. But I will save you the effort: they had two good chances, Sam's shot over the bar and BWP's run into the box ending in Grella putting it wide. On every other attempt, the shot was either so far out it was not a threat, or TFC had a significant defensive presence on the shooter, forcing a shot off-target (this even applies to Grella's chance... I have no doubt BWP would have waltzed in and slotted the ball home on that move with last year's back line).

    I'm not sure why praise for Vanney seems to bother you so, or why you would need to wait 10 more games before agreeing that he got it right for this one match alone... he devised a game plan suited to the opponent and situation and the team executed it well. Nobody is giving him a lifetime contract just yet.

  3. #1683
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Most importantly, the vaunted full NYRB press DID NOT WORK. They tried, and failed. Do you think that didn't happen because of tactics?!?!?!?!
    Of note with this; last season the press was our achilles heel. We had problems every single time we faced it last year and just kept throwing the same failed set up against it. Dealing with that was tactics job #1 that I wanted to see this year and even though it's just one match, it's a start. Next two weeks should also be good tests against it. SKC for sure as that's their primrary system but I am not sure about NYCFC. Didn't see that match and have no idea what Viera is running there. Either way, two more good tests coming up.

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    We didn't deal with their press. They just had a bad day.

    Can you all please stop this false narrative about the hate I supposedly have on for Vanney, or about me as a negative guy? What a bunch of precious twinkletoes some of you are acting like. Vanney is still on Manning's 8 game clock, which is what I thought we were talking about.

    The post that started this was mostly praise for Vanney anyway (for finding Endoh).
    Last edited by ensco; 03-08-2016 at 01:54 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    We didn't deal with their press. They just had a bad day.

    .
    Disagree.

    Within the first 5 minutes, we passed the ball from one side to the other wing, as if to say "See, we can swing the ball around. Now what are your attacking Fullbacks going to do?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Disagree.

    Within the first 5 minutes, we passed the ball from one side to the other wing, as if to say "See, we can swing the ball around. Now what are your attacking Fullbacks going to do?"
    First 10-15 minutes were great.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronzilla View Post
    I agree with you 100%. We were outplayed for most of the game and very lucky to pick up the win. It's laughable to say vanney got us the result with his tactics.
    You could say that about Leicester this season. Outplayed most games, small minority of possession in each game - and yet they are top of the premiership. Is that just complete and utter luck or genius from Ranieri?

    I personally like to think you make your own luck - whether that's tactical genius, or just making yourself difficult to beat, or fitter than the opponent, or harder working - but they all have a part to play in winning. Leicester are fitter and work harder than anybody else in the league - but you don't see people bitching that Ranieri is lucking out - he deserves praise just for making them play the way they do.

    I think some fans just want tica-taca Messi style perfection - but that's not the only way to win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    We didn't deal with their press. They just had a bad day.

    Can you all please stop this false narrative about the hate I supposedly have on for Vanney, or about me as a negative guy? What a bunch of precious twinkletoes some of you are acting like. Vanney is still on Manning's 8 game clock, which is what I thought we were talking about.

    The post that started this was mostly praise for Vanney anyway (for finding Endoh).
    If you drop the narrative that we're all optimistic fools, sure. I find that equally annoying.

    I think it's so lazy to wave away our performance as the other team having a bad day. Nothing we did on the pitch contributed to them having a bad day?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Disagree.

    Within the first 5 minutes, we passed the ball from one side to the other wing, as if to say "See, we can swing the ball around. Now what are your attacking Fullbacks going to do?"
    Yeah I don't think the sequence you are describing is an accurate representation of the majority of play. With very few exceptions, up until we scored the goal, we had a very hard time transitioning from defending to attacking.

    Lovitz and Endo in the first half were poor. It was on those guys to hold the ball enough for the team to find its shape and transition.... They were frequently on the losing end. Endo was better in the 2nd half, Lovitz was consistently poor. The backline organization held it together in the meantime.

    We should be going out of our way to praise the spine of the team here. They did extremely well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    We didn't deal with their press. They just had a bad day.

    Can you all please stop this false narrative about the hate I supposedly have on for Vanney, or about me as a negative guy? What a bunch of precious twinkletoes some of you are acting like. Vanney is still on Manning's 8 game clock, which is what I thought we were talking about.

    The post that started this was mostly praise for Vanney anyway (for finding Endoh).
    We just didn't push forward enough. There is clearly some fitness and gelling issues yet. lots of missed passes, needless turn overs etc.

    What we saw was a team letting the Red Bulls get frustrated and letting them make mistakes later on.

    We made a few.. we had a bad game too.

    The Header is going to happen, but they put enough pressure on that he did miss. Luck on our side.

    The "Free shot on an open net" that was a mistake as well.. however it wasn't a free shot on an open net, Irwin came out and prevented the shot, the defenders were in there, Grella didn't have a clear shot. His aim was off yes... but we also put pressure. There wasn't a clear easy shot there that he just fubbed.

    A year ago that play though would have been a goal.

    The NYRB pushed hard, they got frustrated. They got very few chances.. about the 70th minutes we made some changes and started pushing up. It paid off.


    We were both in early season form. Mistakes on both sides. When you make it out like the only reason they didn't win was because they were in early season form... well.. so were we.. it isn't like we are in mid season form and still had trouble... no.. in mid season form maybe they play harder, maybe we do too.. the result could be the same it could be different.


    There was a lot of positives.. and when the boys are in better form, and know each other better (5 of the 11 are new) it will be different for us too.


    I don't think we see a lot of rose coloured glasses. We see a lot of ok there is promise and thank the gods for Gio and some luck.


    I think Vanney went in looking for a draw, hoping for a win, and would have been ok with a Loss. They played like that was the plan.. and the result was a positive one. Next week.. if they do the same who knows.. but that is what it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Yeah I don't think the sequence you are describing is an accurate description of the majority of play. .
    It didn't have to be. The point was the threat. NYRB had to think. This is what Columbus did against them in the playoffs last season. Force their wide mids and full backs to stay wide and their middle group can't pick their spots. As Molinaro pointed out, MacCartey and Klestjan didn't have the outlets they normally have. NYRB lives on pulling you out of shape with their press and then quickly transitioning forward. That didn't happen. And the reason it didn't was the effective enough wide play (by the 55th minute, Lovitz was out of gas - I think he bulked up too much this off season).

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    Do people from Toronto have a problem winning?! Sometimes....I....just don't...understand.

    (after re-reading the whole thread, not just the posts above).

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    Side note - this is a good article about the stats of Leicesters season that makes a good read:

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35553082

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    It didn't have to be. The point was the threat..
    The threat was nothing. For the middle third of the game we were constantly pressured into giving up the ball. It's not like they adjusted tactically after that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    The threat was nothing. For the middle third of the game we were constantly pressured into giving up the ball. It's not like they adjusted tactically after that point.
    but they couldn't move Sam and Grella into the middle and push Lawrence and Lade(?) forward because we kept Lovitz and Endoh high and wide. We were constantly pressured into giving up the ball because we didn't have a proper outlet on the field who could hold up the ball for our counter-attacks. That's not on Vanney, he didn't have any options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    Side note - this is a good article about the stats of Leicesters season that makes a good read:

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35553082
    Can we just say it's a weak and disinterested league this year? The top sides are not what they have been in other years.

    Not to take away from their accomplishment, because they are punching a thousand pounds above their weight, but I think the uniformly disappointing form of most of the big clubs has made this a perfect storm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    but they couldn't move Sam and Grella into the middle and push Lawrence and Lade(?) forward because we kept Lovitz and Endoh high and wide. We were constantly pressured into giving up the ball because we didn't have a proper outlet on the field who could hold up the ball for our counter-attacks. That's not on Vanney, he didn't have any options.
    I think if you consider Lovitz a starter there are always options. I found we had the odd spell where we pressed effectively but once things settled in we conceded the middle third of the field and they pressed us back.

    Endo and Lovitz WERE the outlets along with Gio. The third one was blanketed with defenders and the other two were ineffective at holding the ball up. Endo is finding his game; Lovitz's decision making after this many years in the league is shockingly slow. He routinely requires 2-3 extra touches to make decisions compared to better players at his position. Hence the problem. They'd find him in a reasonable position with passing options but the slow decision making meant he played his teammate into a wall or lost the ball himself.

    I am not as negative as Ensco on this one but see plenty of room for improvement. That's all I'm saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I think if you consider Lovitz a starter there are always options. I found we had the odd spell where we pressed effectively but once things settled in we conceded the middle third of the field and they pressed us back.

    Endo and Lovitz WERE the outlets along with Gio. The third one was blanketed with defenders and the other two were ineffective at holding the ball up. Endo is finding his game; Lovitz's decision making after this many years in the league is shockingly slow. He routinely requires 2-3 extra touches to make decisions compared to better players at his position. Hence the problem. They'd find him in a reasonable position with passing options but the slow decision making meant he played his teammate into a wall or lost the ball himself.

    I am not as negative as Ensco on this one but see plenty of room for improvement. That's all I'm saying.
    '

    But the job of the two wingers isn't to hold up the ball in this scenario. It's to get past the fullback in space and be direct. They couldn't for most of the game because the fullbacks didn't push up very far, and they never got proper outlet passes in space down the flanks. Gio isn't suited to play the hold up role in the lone striker role, which made us totally unable to counter-attack effectively. We had to wait for them to get tired and let the press die before we were able to counter-attack with any effectiveness.

    In the end, we wore them down, Bradley found an outlet ball Giovinco behind Lade(?), who found Endoh making a direct run on net and he drew a penalty. Then it happened again with Delgado on the second goal. Given the circumstances, we played the perfect game.

  19. #1699
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    Sal zizzo was RB for nyrb
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  20. #1700
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    Vanney's weaknesses have included a tactical naiveté and a failure to respond to tactical changes by opponents, accompanied by a stubborn refusal to change. The first showed in his insistence to attack from the opening kickoff, despite defensive issues. This encouraged Bradley's over aggression and the result, since his very first game against Philadelphia, was the team giving up early goals. The statistics are incredible, something like two thirds of the games he has coached. The second was evident in the last two games against Montreal. They adjusted at half time of the first game. We never did and lost 5-0 from that point forward.

    Against that background, you have to give him credit for the set up for this game. The midfield harried, we pressed, Bradley stayed back, and we even played hoofball, one of the ways of defeating a high press. New York this time could not, or would not adjust.

    I think Vanney deserves credit for that game plan and kudos to him.

    One thing interesting - as KJ says in his article, Vanney took advantage of Jozy's absence. How do we play this system with him in the lineup?

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    The plan was to counter attack, clearly. The two wide players in the setup act as pivots and absolutely have to be relied upon as outlets. Not everything can be channeled through a single striker.

    I disagree about the getting past the fullback line. That's not true in this setup - they intentionally have to be more inside and combine with other forward players to be effective. This is a 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 hybrid - not a 4-4-2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Lots of rose coloured glasses around here. I'm glad we won, but jeez, this is ... wow. Did I miss something, is this the thread only for people who watched the TFC highlights or something?

    Zubar missed a free header in the first half. Grella and BWP screwed up a wide open net. Plus multiple other good sequences.

    Before we scored, the count on dangerous moves was something like 8-2 for NY. We were completely outplayed between the 15th and 75th minutes.
    Not sure that they're rose coloured glasses but more of the general consensus from the fans and media. KJ, Molinaro, Larsun, MLSsoccer (doyle), Alejandro Moreno (ESPNFC) etc.

    TFC put in a text book away performance, using a high press to keep NYRB honest and counter attacking when possible. We made use of wide players, who also were told that they needed to be willing to come back and help the backs.. which they did. TFC bent but ultimately held their shape and only allowed one clear cut chance on goal (Sam), otherwise everyone forced the NYRB into more difficult positions to score. NYRB were only shut out twice last year and we've never beaten them at Red Bull Arena.... If all that doesn't suggest to you that Vanney and Co. did an excellent job to out manage the NYRB than you may as well follow another team because your hatred for this guy won't make you happy until he's fired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    You could say that about Leicester this season. Outplayed most games, small minority of possession in each game - and yet they are top of the premiership. Is that just complete and utter luck or genius from Ranieri?

    I personally like to think you make your own luck - whether that's tactical genius, or just making yourself difficult to beat, or fitter than the opponent, or harder working - but they all have a part to play in winning. Leicester are fitter and work harder than anybody else in the league - but you don't see people bitching that Ranieri is lucking out - he deserves praise just for making them play the way they do.

    I think some fans just want tica-taca Messi style perfection - but that's not the only way to win.
    I was literally just about to bring up Leicester as an example of a team that is willing to give up possession, absorb as much as they can defensively and then spring forward as soon as they possibly can. That combined with their high press has brought them a lot of success this year.

    Tboy to your other comments I completely agree.. We won a road game against the supporters shield winners and we did it be following the plan set out by Vanney and Co.. Well done, let's enjoy it rather than hate on the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    Sal zizzo was RB for nyrb
    Thanks.

    Couldn't remember off the top of my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    I'm sorry, but if you consider this:



    to be a "free header" I will gladly continue to wear rose coloured glasses. I will bear the burden of balancing out against those who seem incapable of allowing themselves any TFC related joy.

    Look, Red Bulls carried the play, of course they did. And they had other good sequences. But that's all they were... good sequences. Not good chances. The whole point of playing defensive counter football is to frustrate the other team, allowing them possession but denying them opportunities. That is a perfect description of the game. If you disagree with this you are free to go through WhoScored's match commentary alongside the full MLS Live replay and examine every shot attempt the Red Bulls mustered as I just did. But I will save you the effort: they had two good chances, Sam's shot over the bar and BWP's run into the box ending in Grella putting it wide. On every other attempt, the shot was either so far out it was not a threat, or TFC had a significant defensive presence on the shooter, forcing a shot off-target (this even applies to Grella's chance... I have no doubt BWP would have waltzed in and slotted the ball home on that move with last year's back line).

    I'm not sure why praise for Vanney seems to bother you so, or why you would need to wait 10 more games before agreeing that he got it right for this one match alone... he devised a game plan suited to the opponent and situation and the team executed it well. Nobody is giving him a lifetime contract just yet.
    I'm not going to suggest it's a narrative because it's not his usual schtick but this is on the whole entirely accurate. This was a deliberate strategy of bunkering and breaking, and it worked. Even if Zubar had been open, whcih he wasn't, he would have missed, because Ronald Zubar is shit, and is almost never a threat to anyone. And Mike Grella is a journeyman whose one good season depended a whole lot on seeing good balls from BWP.

    They had ONE shot on net and maybe three chances in the whole game. We had five shots, four of which were legitimate chances, and we did it with 37% possession. That's the definition of good counterattacking.

    Moor pretty much commanded the box. Every time they tried a switch, our wide forward would drop back and shut off the flank.

    It was a really good game plan, done really well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    If you drop the narrative that we're all optimistic fools, sure. I find that equally annoying.

    I think it's so lazy to wave away our performance as the other team having a bad day. Nothing we did on the pitch contributed to them having a bad day?
    OK that's fair.

    I am glad we won, but what we did is what an badly overmatched team does, to try to eke something out against all odds. That is not my perception of what we are, or are trying to do.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    But again, what would you rather us do? press them high and get wide, try and dominate possesion? That's how you get killed against them.

    We made the most of our pieces. That's what you want from your coach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    "Haters gonna hate." From a mod. That is pathetic.

    You guys who seemingly can't tolerate a legit conversation about this are not acknowledging reality. They shelled us for long stretches of the game, and if one of those wide open misses goes in, we'd be having a very different discussion.

    Vanney didn't screw up. We won. But I'll wait five or ten more games before I declare what we saw some sort of strategic genius. That was risky in the extreme. Taking risks like that doesn't often work out over time.
    When you are in disagreement with Molinaro, KJ, and Larson, giving strong opinions without too much evidence will open you up to charges of being a "hater." That's not an attack on your character, that's a description that your position seems based on something other than the facts that you have advanced to bolster your position.

    I think starter has a point that "hater" is too strong of a word, and I'll acknowledge that.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by barticusz View Post
    Not sure that they're rose coloured glasses but more of the general consensus from the fans and media. KJ, Molinaro, Larsun, MLSsoccer (doyle), Alejandro Moreno (ESPNFC) etc.

    TFC put in a text book away performance, using a high press to keep NYRB honest and counter attacking when possible. We made use of wide players, who also were told that they needed to be willing to come back and help the backs.. which they did. TFC bent but ultimately held their shape and only allowed one clear cut chance on goal (Sam), otherwise everyone forced the NYRB into more difficult positions to score. NYRB were only shut out twice last year and we've never beaten them at Red Bull Arena.... If all that doesn't suggest to you that Vanney and Co. did an excellent job to out manage the NYRB than you may as well follow another team because your hatred for this guy won't make you happy until he's fired.
    Exactly.

    Classic textbook counter-attacking, well executed by Vanney. Whatever weaknesses were not due to strategy but due to TFC being a cap-limited MLS side with inherent flaws. Suppoerters Shield winning NYRB had similar weaknesses. For example the stupid decision-making that led to a PK against them, when our player didn't even have the ball.

    It's time for some people to give the whole 'inexperienced" thing a rest. Yes, we should have had an MLS Cup winner hired instead of Vanney. However Vanney now has enough experience to be a decent coach in this league, and is showing it tactically. Pretty well all of the media analysts recognize this as a fact. It's time to drop the "get rid of Vanney" refrain.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 03-08-2016 at 04:33 PM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    NYCFC is a run and shoot team, without much speed, so more a lope and shoot. Their best weapon is the between lines through pass from the midfield to Silva running the channels (what we do with Seba). If your DM's are disciplined, they got nothing. Their midfield can't take pressure and stay on the ball a lot, their FB's are a work in progress and their CD's are not particularly fast, with a keeper who doesn't win them points. They play too high a line for the speed of their defence.

    Pirlo, doesn't do defence anymore - he's into zonal marking - he's in a zone and everybody else does the marking.

    I expect to see a lot of ball movement from us. If Jozy plays, we will play the ball through the wides into Jozy and then onto Seba or other runners. If we can get ahead, NYCFC will leave gaps in the back pressing for a goal. If they get ahead, they can be broken down.

    Vanney can mess this up by trying to play the counter or some other dumb idea. But, I suspect we will be playing to keep possession and keep moving the ball around.

 

 

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