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  1. #1531
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    His agent is now denying it directly - rumour dead (see Twitter).

    Not to mention an experienced world class coach working under a guy who's qualifications are inferior by comparison is bass ackwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    His agent is now denying it directly - rumour dead (see Twitter).

    Not to mention an experienced world class coach working under a guy who's qualifications are inferior by comparison is bass ackwards.
    Oh well, it would have been pretty incredible, but looks like we're stuck with Vanney for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super View Post
    Oh well, it would have been pretty incredible, but looks like we're stuck with Vanney for now.
    I like what Greg brings to the table plus I am in no mood for another coaching change.

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    I like what Greg brings to the table plus I am in no mood for another coaching change.
    If not being able to address or fix issues, and have players speak out against his questionable tactical approach to the game, then you'll likely get your wish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    I like what Greg brings to the table plus I am in no mood for another coaching change.
    What does he bring to the table?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    What does he bring to the table?
    No experience. No track record. No style of play. No proven coaching ability whatsoever. I wish we could show up at job interviews, say that, and get the BIG job right away.

    I understand that there are many former players in the MLS who become coaches, but often it's players who used to play on the team, so they already have a very in-depth knowledge of the players on the team and have proven themselves to be leaders. Kreis is a good example. As is Jay Heaps. Trick is of course to pick these guys correctly. We'd probably fuck that up too. Then you have other former players who get the assistant coaching role at first, like Carl Robinson, Mauro Biello (who played a ton for MTL), Jim Curtin (at Philly) and Ben Olsen (who also played for DC), and then prove themselves on that level and move on to become head coaches. I just feel that we are not in the luxurious position anymore to take chances on new coaches.

    Vanney is credited with working as assistant coach at Chivas, granted, but then he stepped behind the scene in football and became a suit. If you look at all head coaches across the league you'll find that they are typically either a) experienced head coaches, or b) former assistant coaches at same club, or c) former players of same club. The only head coaches who do not fall into one of those 3 categories are Greg Vanney and Patrick Vieira. However, Patrick Vieira did at least do a few years coaching Man City reserves. That's not NO experience. That's being judged every day at how well you're doing your job.

    To me it's pretty clear: We pick the wrong coaches. They're just never a good fit for us. Not sure most of them are good fits anywhere, which is why most of them didn't work in coaching after getting sacked at TFC. They are mostly not experienced (or the experience they did have was usually not good at all), and have no experience as players for us either. Maybe moving forward we should get a coach who falls into one of those before-mentioned 3 categories.

    Is it any wonder I have serious doubts and no confidence in Vanney knowing he's just like most of our former coaches who didn't know what the hell they were doing. Would any of you honestly have given another season to any from that group? Aron Winter? Mo Johnston? Nope. But somehow Vanney is better. If the others had Giovinco we would have probably won the league one year. Take Giovinco away and this team is one of the worst in the league. Add Giovinco to any of our former teams and history would have been very different. One player shouldn't be the difference between the play-offs (barely) and bottom of the league. A good head coach should make all players better, and he failed at that this year. Who excelled outside of Giovinco? Pretty much nobody. That's really sad.
    Last edited by Super; 11-22-2015 at 03:29 PM.

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    Not surprised Mazzari not coming. It didn't pass the "sniff test," sounded like something football gossip columnist s would make up.

    I would have supported Kreis, similar enough style that we would have continuity, proven winner in MLS. A total change of direction would be against the "stability" we were told about and would be a mistake.

    Vanney is a growing manager, no worse than your average MLS coach, despite what some here think. I think with a tweaked (not rebuilt) roster we will do better next year.

  9. #1539
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    We get it, some people dont like Vanney, we know why you dont like him, theres no need to regularly list off the reasons.
    Some of us like him and want him to stay, youre arguments arent working now and arent likely to work if you continue to reiterate them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super View Post
    If the others had Giovinco we would have probably won the league one year. Take Giovinco away and this team is one of the worst in the league. Add Giovinco to any of our former teams and history would have been very different. One player shouldn't be the difference between the play-offs (barely) and bottom of the league.
    I call Bullshit on this. Part of what makes Giovinco so effective is how Vanney plays him and gets service to him. You can (partly) fault Vanney for our poor defense, but it is simply not true that you take a crap team and coach, add Giovinco, and make the playoffs.

    Do you really think adding Giovinco to Preki's squad of Euro rejects would have turned him into a winner? How about Paul Mariner? You think a coach as terrible as him would have won with Giovinco?

    BTW, by your own standards Vancouver shouldn't have hired Robbo. No real experience (any more than Vanney), not coaching a team that he played on. Yet he's doing quite well. Your standards aren't based on real world MLS, they are made up to exclude Vanney. Fact is Vanney is as experienced as many coaches in this league, and about as good as them too. We tend to be aware of his limitations because we see them regularly, so we lose perspective. If you read what other MLS team's supporters say about their coaches, generally it's not better.

  11. #1541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I call Bullshit on this. Part of what makes Giovinco so effective is how Vanney plays him and gets service to him. You can (partly) fault Vanney for our poor defense, but it is simply not true that you take a crap team and coach, add Giovinco, and make the playoffs.

    Do you really think adding Giovinco to Preki's squad of Euro rejects would have turned him into a winner? How about Paul Mariner? You think a coach as terrible as him would have won with Giovinco?

    BTW, by your own standards Vancouver shouldn't have hired Robbo. No real experience (any more than Vanney), not coaching a team that he played on. Yet he's doing quite well. Your standards aren't based on real world MLS, they are made up to exclude Vanney. Fact is Vanney is as experienced as many coaches in this league, and about as good as them too. We tend to be aware of his limitations because we see them regularly, so we lose perspective. If you read what other MLS team's supporters say about their coaches, generally it's not better.
    I think Giovinco could have made a difference on any of those teams, but it's obviously not possible to say how much of a difference. All I know is that there's probably not another player in this league who did as much as Giovinco did for us this year, so take that for what it's worth.

    Re: Robbo, he did have experience working his way up the organization as assistant coach with the club first. Not somewhere else. If Vanney wanted to go that route then it would have made more sense. But I really can't agree with you that Vanney is as good as other coaches in this league, just based on his inability to fix anything this year, or grind out a result when it matters. I'm not really sure what he did well this year. But of course he can improve, as can anyone, but I just don't like the idea of my club being the testing ground for former players who want to be coaches. But so be it. We'll keep going in that direction.

  12. #1542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super View Post
    I think Giovinco could have made a difference on any of those teams, but it's obviously not possible to say how much of a difference. All I know is that there's probably not another player in this league who did as much as Giovinco did for us this year, so take that for what it's worth.

    Re: Robbo, he did have experience working his way up the organization as assistant coach with the club first. Not somewhere else. If Vanney wanted to go that route then it would have made more sense. But I really can't agree with you that Vanney is as good as other coaches in this league, just based on his inability to fix anything this year, or grind out a result when it matters. I'm not really sure what he did well this year. But of course he can improve, as can anyone, but I just don't like the idea of my club being the testing ground for former players who want to be coaches. But so be it. We'll keep going in that direction.

    One point though ... Robbo is running the show in Vancouver ... he is the manger, recruiter, chief scout and basically GM. His front office background is in scouting/player development in latin america, before coaching ... so he relies on those strengths. But this allows him to recruit players for HIS system. The day the season is over he's on a plane and off scouting latin america all winter working on his target list.
    Last edited by Qman; 11-22-2015 at 05:18 PM.

  13. #1543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super View Post
    No experience. No track record. No style of play. .

    Uh, no.

    Look I get this is basically the "I don't like Vanney thread" and he's far from perfect but lets not start making up performance indicators that a guy like Carl Robinson, for one, would not have met in his first season.
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 11-22-2015 at 05:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Uh, no.

    Look I get this is basically the "I don't like Vanney thread" and he's far from perfect but lets not start making up performance indicators that a guy like Carl Robinson, for one, would not have met in his first season.
    Except Robinson had time as an assistant at New York, time as an assistant at Vancouver, had played in the premiership and captained every team he was on. It was pretty much universally expected, even when he was playing, that he'd eventually coach. And they most definitely had a first-year style, one they've continued to build on.

    And this wasn't his first season. This was his first full season. There's a distinct difference when you have two cycles of player signings possible and still end up with a team that, as noted, would have failed without Giovinco.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossington Mental Youth View Post
    We get it, some people dont like Vanney, we know why you dont like him, theres no need to regularly list off the reasons.
    Some of us like him and want him to stay, youre arguments arent working now and arent likely to work if you continue to reiterate them.
    Why do you like him, Oss?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Why do you like him, Oss?
    I don't think he as much likes him as he wants to see what SOME consistency would do for this club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think he as much likes him as he wants to see what SOME consistency would do for this club.
    Big part of it, he has in some circumstances been quick to learn from his mistakes, regardless of how the season ended its been our best season yet as far as wins/goals, we beat several teams that have been either bogey men or top teams. We did at times play some of the most entertaining soccer we've ever played and i dont think its all up to one man (Sebba). Dont get me wrong, i see all the negative shit that happened too, how can you not, im just not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater, regardless of our history or how disappointed we were at the end of the season.

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    I dont buy the 'hes had two years and this is the best we will see', in my mind and opinion hes had one season, thats it and he did not too bad.
    Expect better by all means, expect to see way better next season. If not then sure, lets get someone else in, we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Except Robinson had time as an assistant at New York, time as an assistant at Vancouver, had played in the premiership and captained every team he was on. It was pretty much universally expected, even when he was playing, that he'd eventually coach. And they most definitely had a first-year style, one they've continued to build on.
    Didn't Vanney have 3 years as an assistant at Chivas? That's slightly longer than Robinson I believe.

    I don't disagree of course that Robinson has done far better thus far but let's leave playing career as a credential out of it... otherwise I know a certain Kiwi with ties to the club that would appear to be a great hire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Except Robinson had time as an assistant at New York, time as an assistant at Vancouver, had played in the premiership and captained every team he was on. It

    Assistant at Chivas, played in League 1 in France and USMNT player (only didn't play in the WC due to injury). Also expected to be a coach while playing.

    This isn't a tub thumping competition. I'm just pointing out the preposterousness of some of the hyperbole in this thread.

    As for style, sure Vancouver had one, although it took awhile to find the right pieces to fit that. Same thing is happening here, with the added tweek of 3 DP's who we are not sure how to play together yet.

    Vanney has a preferred style too and people who think otherwise are making stuff up. He preferred a 4-3-3 that morphs into a 4-2-1-1-2. Bombing FB's. He said so at the beginning of last season. Kinda how much of the league plays, actually, except almost every other team has a decent DM with some pace.

    He also wants to see defensive pressure applied in zones, especially on the wings.

    The best thing that Vanney did this season was abandon his preferred style in order to free up Giovinco as a striker, who was, strangely, scouted as an AM.

    If you remember the Vancouver game goal by Jozy in the first half, it was Seba operating in the hole behind Findley (UGH) and Altidore. By the second game of the season, that approach was abandoned in order to play a flatter 4-4-2 (mostly because Creavalle, chosen as the RB, was a sieve at defence and we couldn't leave that side open all the time).

    Then, in Dallas, TFC discovered that if you just get the ball to Seba, good things happen.

    So we end up playing with 2 strikers cause Seba ain't going to play AM but can't be a lone striker.

    After that, it was all trying to figure out how to get the most out of a team with 2 gaping holes At RB and CB and nobody stepping up. Caldwell's injury was the key to our defensive woes. The Scot stays, Perquis learns the ropes of this league and doesn't have to be "the man" at the back. Then RB could have been worked upon, possibly getting a RB as against 2 CD's. But, that didn't happen. And, of the two guys we got as CD, 1 wasn't good enough (Kantari) and the other is a #3. Then Jackson steps up for weeks on end at RB only to blow his mind during the Montreal game (much like Hagglund during the Dallas game).

    But none of that affects style as much as confidence. With that team defence, nobody was confident of a lead. We were always played knowing full well that at any time the opponent could score a goal.

    Beyond the obvious need for 3 changes in the defensive back 5 (keeper, CD and RB), to me that lack of confidence comes down to 1 thing that Vanney didn't do, needs to see and has to fix or he is out before Canada Day: the inability of Cheyrou and other midfielders to consistently play as defensive shields in front of the back line and the unwillingness of Cheyrou and others to consistently come back on defence once a ball has gotten past them.

    Vanney's tactics (well all MLS team's tactics to be honest) relies upon team defence. Vanney didn't coach this team to play decent enough team defence. If he doesn't get them to play better team defence, he's out.

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    I think one of the obvious mistakes you can make is believing that you can just find a manager to slot into your system. Very smart people make this mistake, big clubs especially, with big player payrolls all do it all the time (eg every club in Italy, Moyes at Man Utd). It's so tempting - easier to change the manager than the players.

    The reality is that doing that doesn't make much sense (sorry Trane). It rarely works. Every manager brings his own system and wants/has influence on the makeup of the club.

    This decision by Manning isn't about whether Vanney is the best choice available. He isn't.

    The decision is simply to wait, because if/when Manning changes Vanney he really should change everything (ie the Leiweke/Bez gameplan and roster philosophy, Bez himself, and a large percentage of the roster), which will be difficult and possibly catastrophically expensive (and less expensive in the summer window, btw)
    Last edited by ensco; 11-23-2015 at 07:54 AM.
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  22. #1552
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Assistant at Chivas, played in League 1 in France and USMNT player (only didn't play in the WC due to injury). Also expected to be a coach while playing.

    This isn't a tub thumping competition. I'm just pointing out the preposterousness of some of the hyperbole in this thread.

    As for style, sure Vancouver had one, although it took awhile to find the right pieces to fit that. Same thing is happening here, with the added tweek of 3 DP's who we are not sure how to play together yet.

    Vanney has a preferred style too and people who think otherwise are making stuff up. He preferred a 4-3-3 that morphs into a 4-2-1-1-2. Bombing FB's. He said so at the beginning of last season. Kinda how much of the league plays, actually, except almost every other team has a decent DM with some pace.

    He also wants to see defensive pressure applied in zones, especially on the wings.

    The best thing that Vanney did this season was abandon his preferred style in order to free up Giovinco as a striker, who was, strangely, scouted as an AM.

    If you remember the Vancouver game goal by Jozy in the first half, it was Seba operating in the hole behind Findley (UGH) and Altidore. By the second game of the season, that approach was abandoned in order to play a flatter 4-4-2 (mostly because Creavalle, chosen as the RB, was a sieve at defence and we couldn't leave that side open all the time).

    Then, in Dallas, TFC discovered that if you just get the ball to Seba, good things happen.

    So we end up playing with 2 strikers cause Seba ain't going to play AM but can't be a lone striker.

    After that, it was all trying to figure out how to get the most out of a team with 2 gaping holes At RB and CB and nobody stepping up. Caldwell's injury was the key to our defensive woes. The Scot stays, Perquis learns the ropes of this league and doesn't have to be "the man" at the back. Then RB could have been worked upon, possibly getting a RB as against 2 CD's. But, that didn't happen. And, of the two guys we got as CD, 1 wasn't good enough (Kantari) and the other is a #3. Then Jackson steps up for weeks on end at RB only to blow his mind during the Montreal game (much like Hagglund during the Dallas game).

    But none of that affects style as much as confidence. With that team defence, nobody was confident of a lead. We were always played knowing full well that at any time the opponent could score a goal.

    Beyond the obvious need for 3 changes in the defensive back 5 (keeper, CD and RB), to me that lack of confidence comes down to 1 thing that Vanney didn't do, needs to see and has to fix or he is out before Canada Day: the inability of Cheyrou and other midfielders to consistently play as defensive shields in front of the back line and the unwillingness of Cheyrou and others to consistently come back on defence once a ball has gotten past them.

    Vanney's tactics (well all MLS team's tactics to be honest) relies upon team defence. Vanney didn't coach this team to play decent enough team defence. If he doesn't get them to play better team defence, he's out.
    Well said and properly apportions the blame and the positives. What we have was a roster with serious two holes (one due to an unforeseen injury) that any coach would have struggled with, a coach that is weak in coaching defense, a coach who is flexible in his systems and has managed to maximize his offense. Not good enough to guarantee a job, not bad enough to fire immediately. Fix the roster and see how he manages to keep growing is the obvious strategy.

    If he gets the right tools and the team still doesn't reasonably meet its potential then he should be gone.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Well said and properly apportions the blame and the positives. What we have was a roster with serious two holes (one due to an unforeseen injury) that any coach would have struggled with, a coach that is weak in coaching defense, a coach who is flexible in his systems and has managed to maximize his offense. Not good enough to guarantee a job, not bad enough to fire immediately. Fix the roster and see how he manages to keep growing is the obvious strategy.

    If he gets the right tools and the team still doesn't reasonably meet its potential then he should be gone.
    At this point that's the mood I'm trying to get myself into as well. Vanney is staying. He gets an off-season and a pre-season, and at least 8 games to start the season. If we see improvements, then that speaks in his favour of course. But football is a cruel beast and improvement or not it comes down to points. Win those 8 games on sheer luck and playing awful would still keep him his job, so that's what it's all about. Never personal, only about results. The reason why I've been so negative is that I feel we could do better with a more experienced and successful coach (I feel like it's the only thing we've never tried), and that we're risking next season by keeping Vanney on. Passing on the opportunity to do it this off-season is just a big let down to a lot of people, myself included. But hey, I'll shake it off this off-season with most other people, and then it's onwards and upwards, and all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super View Post
    At this point that's the mood I'm trying to get myself into as well. Vanney is staying. He gets an off-season and a pre-season, and at least 8 games to start the season. If we see improvements, then that speaks in his favour of course. But football is a cruel beast and improvement or not it comes down to points. Win those 8 games on sheer luck and playing awful would still keep him his job, so that's what it's all about. Never personal, only about results. The reason why I've been so negative is that I feel we could do better with a more experienced and successful coach (I feel like it's the only thing we've never tried), and that we're risking next season by keeping Vanney on. Passing on the opportunity to do it this off-season is just a big let down to a lot of people, myself included. But hey, I'll shake it off this off-season with most other people, and then it's onwards and upwards, and all that.
    We also haven't tried stability, which most winning MLS sides have.

    If we show that we can give a new coach 2-3 years we have much more chance of attracting an established coach, should Vanney not work out.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    We also haven't tried stability, which most winning MLS sides have.

    If we show that we can give a new coach 2-3 years we have much more chance of attracting an established coach, should Vanney not work out.
    Well, Vanney has 8 games to keep his job - according to Manning. Not sure how much stability there is in that. That's another thing I don't like about this situation. Give the man another year, or let him go. But giving him a short leash and 8 games to prove himself worthy of the job is the opposite of stability. Tells me that Manning has some faith, but not a lot, in Vanney. If Vanney fails the year will likely be a loss. It's easier to bring in a new coach in the off season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super View Post
    Well, Vanney has 8 games to keep his job - according to Manning. Not sure how much stability there is in that. That's another thing I don't like about this situation. Give the man another year, or let him go. But giving him a short leash and 8 games to prove himself worthy of the job is the opposite of stability. If Vanney fails the year will likely be a loss. It's easier to bring in a new coach in the off season.
    Have to say I agree with you there. However, the 8 game bar isn't that high, but there will be other bars later on.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I think one of the obvious mistakes you can make is believing that you can just find a manager to slot into your system. Very smart people make this mistake, big clubs especially, with big player payrolls all do it all the time (eg every club in Italy, Moyes at Man Utd). It's so tempting - easier to change the manager than the players.

    The reality is that doing that doesn't make much sense (sorry Trane). It rarely works. Every manager brings his own system and wants/has influence on the makeup of the club.

    This decision by Manning isn't about whether Vanney is the best choice available. He isn't.

    The decision is simply to wait, because if/when Manning changes Vanney he really should change everything (ie the Leiweke/Bez gameplan and roster philosophy, Bez himself, and a large percentage of the roster), which will be difficult and possibly catastrophically expensive (and less expensive in the summer window, btw)
    I get where you're coming from but what influence has Vanney had on the makeup of the club that the next coach would have to undo? Aside from the fact he employed very basic 'systems' that a) he kept changing to and from, and b) he didn't implement well, most of the guys brought in during his tenure either:

    a) were not his doing: (Seba, Jozy)
    b) are relative non-issues in varying tactical setups: (Zavaleta, Perquis, Williams - defenders)
    c) don't deserve to/may not stay: (Kantari, Findley, Gomez - the last two of whom seemingly didn't even work in his own systems)

    That leaves who, Cheyrou and Delgado, an aging player with developing fitness issues and your common generic 'versatile' MLS depth?

    Judging from the year-end interviews, I'm willing to bet that there are more players who would benefit from a new coach/system than players who would suffer for it. To say that Vanney has engrained some style of play into the psyches of these players is giving the guy too much credit. Aside from his nephew, I'm pretty sure that with a proper coach, this group could quite easily forget that Vanney ever existed.

    As for waiting for the time to ship Bez out as well, my hope is that he might work better having to answer to a superior who can steer him in the right direction.
    Last edited by Bobo; 11-23-2015 at 11:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Have to say I agree with you there. However, the 8 game bar isn't that high, but there will be other bars later on.
    I'll be happy with 8 pts out of 8 games on the road. Tough to get road points. 6 wouldn't be the end of the world either. Less than that would be problematic. More than 8 would be a huge victory for Vanney and the team as a whole.

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    The big issue with getting a manager with basically limited experience is he has no good will banked. Nothing to really point to that Kreis would have for example.

    Any manager should be given 3 years to implement their vision fully. Consistency for consistencies sake can be an issue, however it is literally the one thing we have never had at this club in the manager position. Same with key roster positions remaining intact. As bitter as the season ended, maybe consistency for consistencies sake is the way to go this time. Until we hire a manager with proper experience this is the best we can hope for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super View Post
    I'll be happy with 8 pts out of 8 games on the road. Tough to get road points. 6 wouldn't be the end of the world either. Less than that would be problematic. More than 8 would be a huge victory for Vanney and the team as a whole.
    Beyond the points the biggest factor that should be watched is our defensive shape and how our defense holds up. No matter what points we have through those 8 matches, if we have a GA of 16 or something then it shows us that the issues have not been addressed and that we will be in the same boat again. I wouldn't give Vanney or the team a pass if we squeak 8 points out of those matches if Seba or Jozy dropped a couple of fortunate braces on teams or if our schedule is friendly and we get some weak defensive teams to start out and we win some shootouts.

 

 

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