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    I just said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here: How many people do you think were screaming for Olsen's head the year DCU won only 3 games? Vanney isn't going anywhere. #getusedtoit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    I just said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here: How many people do you think were screaming for Olsen's head the year DCU won only 3 games? Vanney isn't going anywhere. #getusedtoit
    I don't know whether or not Vanney will last the year or not, but DCU and TFC are two completely different situations. DCU has a lot of history behind it, made the playoffs on many occasions which allows it to be more patient maybe. TFC on the other hand have never made the playoffs with a fanbase that is always on the cusp of calling it quits (at least with their wallets). TFC really need to get it right this year otherwise how much longer will fans want to watch a team that consistently loses. They spend big on their DP's but seem to never spend it where it counts (a good coach). If TFC wants to be considered a "word class club", then they need to go out and spend the money on a coach, because what I have seen from Vanney thus far is underwhelming to say the least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evermorian View Post
    I don't know whether or not Vanney will last the year or not, but DCU and TFC are two completely different situations. DCU has a lot of history behind it, made the playoffs on many occasions which allows it to be more patient maybe. TFC on the other hand have never made the playoffs with a fanbase that is always on the cusp of calling it quits (at least with their wallets). TFC really need to get it right this year otherwise how much longer will fans want to watch a team that consistently loses. They spend big on their DP's but seem to never spend it where it counts (a good coach). If TFC wants to be considered a "word class club", then they need to go out and spend the money on a coach, because what I have seen from Vanney thus far is underwhelming to say the least.

    andddddddd the point is completely missed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    I still think Vanney will figure it out, and that the team is just going through some growing pains atm. But the more I watch D.C., the more I think that our next coaching hire no matter what has to be Ben Olson, either next year or in ten depending on how well Vanney does. He's gotten so much out of a team that really, really should be a team that makes it nowhere near the playoffs.
    please help me understand. On what basis do you say that Vanney will "figure it out?" There are very few performances - Portland second half last year, vancouver this, last night second half - where the team has performed - in over 20 games now. What is it you see that isn't obvious from the won lost record? At the time Nelsen was fired, Vanney supporters confidently said the playoff position Nelsen had the club in was a mirage because he had been " figured out" and so we were going to miss the playoffs, he had to go, Vanney would be better. Then when the team was a disaster they said "unfair to judge on part of a season". Now it's "he'll figure it out". I don't get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barticusz View Post
    Though I don't disagree that someone with experience should be hired next since we've faltered with rookies lately... I still think the major issue is the roster and depth and not Vanney's management. We've got players that have vastly underperformed this year (Osorio, Creavalle, Hagglund) and injuries in key positions (mostly on the defensive side)... on top of that we've played 7 games on the road and only 1 game at home so far.

    I can't see any other manager coming in and doing all that much better than Vanney has given the situation this year.
    what other manager starts Hagglund at RB against Dallas? That was nuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    I just said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here: How many people do you think were screaming for Olsen's head the year DCU won only 3 games? Vanney isn't going anywhere. #getusedtoit
    Please enlighten: what is it about Greg Vanney that demonstrates that we should live through the losing, poor tactics, bad man management, etc? I am asking seriously because I do not understand what his advocates see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    what other manager starts Hagglund at RB against Dallas? That was nuts.
    no it wasn't. It turned out badly, but hindsight is 20/20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Please enlighten: what is it about Greg Vanney that demonstrates that we should live through the losing, poor tactics, bad man management, etc? I am asking seriously because I do not understand what his advocates see.
    The same thing can be said about 99% of coaches in this league when they started out.

    What I see is a guy who is willing to be flexible and still hasn't quite figured out how to play to his player's strength's and hide as many weaknesses as possible. It's not a perfect team, we're probably 2-3 players away from being a real force. But I don't know how you can say he's definitively shown poor man management. He's undoudebtly gotten the most out of Gio and Jozy, and has reevitilized the previously outcast Ashtone Morgan. Not everything is perfect, but we had a very good ppg average over out 7 game road trip, which included 5 games against teams who are undoubtedly making the playoffs. I don't see any reason to panic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    The same thing can be said about 99% of coaches in this league when they started out.

    What I see is a guy who is willing to be flexible and still hasn't quite figured out how to play to his player's strength's and hide as many weaknesses as possible. It's not a perfect team, we're probably 2-3 players away from being a real force. But I don't know how you can say he's definitively shown poor man management. He's undoudebtly gotten the most out of Gio and Jozy, and has reevitilized the previously outcast Ashtone Morgan. Not everything is perfect, but we had a very good ppg average over out 7 game road trip, which included 5 games against teams who are undoubtedly making the playoffs. I don't see any reason to panic.
    In every game he has coached over parts of two seasons, his team has given up easy goals at the start of games, and when it matters. Game after game after game. That's what I see. What fact, other that he is new, gives me a reason to disbelieve what I see?

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    no it wasn't. It turned out badly, but hindsight is 20/20.
    Starting Hagglund, who has no pace, against a guy with serious pace, and exposing him at right back by playing a high line was obviously a huge risk. Not hindsight at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    The same thing can be said about 99% of coaches in this league when they started out.

    What I see is a guy who is willing to be flexible and still hasn't quite figured out how to play to his player's strength's and hide as many weaknesses as possible. It's not a perfect team, we're probably 2-3 players away from being a real force. But I don't know how you can say he's definitively shown poor man management. He's undoudebtly gotten the most out of Gio and Jozy, and has reevitilized the previously outcast Ashtone Morgan. Not everything is perfect, but we had a very good ppg average over out 7 game road trip, which included 5 games against teams who are undoubtedly making the playoffs. I don't see any reason to panic.
    Because a lot of people on here believe they have some sort of knowledge about the game at a professional level.
    Its pretty hilarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Starting Hagglund, who has no pace, against a guy with serious pace, and exposing him at right back by playing a high line was obviously a huge risk. Not hindsight at all.
    Hagglund has lots of pace. He runs weird and jumps funny, but he's pretty athletic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    In every game he has coached over parts of two seasons, his team has given up easy goals at the start of games, and when it matters. Game after game after game. That's what I see. What fact, other that he is new, gives me a reason to disbelieve what I see?

    people would have said the same thing about Jay heaps rev's team until, after about 2.5 to 3 years, he finally found the right combination which stopped conceding so many goals and played better going forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    people would have said the same thing about Jay heaps rev's team until, after about 2.5 to 3 years, he finally found the right combination which stopped conceding so many goals and played better going forward.
    Using that logic, we should have kept Nelsen. He'd only had a year and a half. I agree there have been moments under Vanney, and Morgan has thrived under his leadership, but the general trend is embarrassingly weak defensive play, a team that gives up easy goals at critical times again and again. Let's just hope that your blind faith is correct and that he will learn, because this is the best talent we have had and we should be competing against the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    what other manager starts Hagglund at RB against Dallas? That was nuts.
    Most of them in the league.

    To go over that bit again.


    Vanney asks Morrow and Hagglund if they are comfortable to play RB. Morrow isn't, Hagglund is. (This is how Vanney operates) Hagglund has played there before.

    TFC spends all week stressing that Castillo is a speed merchant and you can not go high on him.

    TFC spends all week telling its mids that you can not give their mids space and time to pass the ball.

    TFC has no plans to play high and plans to press their mids.


    What happens in the first 20 seconds?


    Jackson doesn't press their LM.

    Hagglund goes high.


    You can not blame Vanney for poor execution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    I don't buy that. We have the players to be top third in the league. Should definitely not be fighting it out with the bottom five.
    still the first 3rd of the season, if we are at the bottom five by the end of it you will have a point

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Using that logic, we should have kept Nelsen. He'd only had a year and a half. I agree there have been moments under Vanney, and Morgan has thrived under his leadership, but the general trend is embarrassingly weak defensive play, a team that gives up easy goals at critical times again and again. Let's just hope that your blind faith is correct and that he will learn, because this is the best talent we have had and we should be competing against the best.
    Wow. We have some of the best talent we've ever had. Hands down. But you're raising the level of players who struggled under Nelsen to incredible heights to make your point, Mighty.

    We all should expect more from those players as they are surrounded by "the best talent we've ever had". For sure. But the team is far from composed, player by player, the best we've seen in every role.
    Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 05-15-2015 at 06:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Using that logic, we should have kept Nelsen. He'd only had a year and a half.
    Sure, problem is hes gone and we have Vanney now. We arent discussing whether or not we should have kept Nelsen. Firing didnt make sense to me then either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    I just said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here: How many people do you think were screaming for Olsen's head the year DCU won only 3 games? Vanney isn't going anywhere. #getusedtoit
    Lots but the difference was that they stripped DCU bare that year and went full youth movement. The following off season was when they hammered the re-entry draft and acquired a lot of MLS vets and went worst to first. The Revs were crap under Heaps at first because that team is all young. They accepted poor results with a young, growing team and then added some DP talent to give them a boost and then they flourished.

    We are not on a youth movement. Vanney is a lot like both of those managers and could end the same but we didn't hire him to wade through rough water with all kids and learn on the job. That was what 2013 with Nelsen was. Our squad is expensive, has enough veterans to not be considered a youth squad, and is expected to win and look decent pretty much right away, especially since we didn't jettison the core like we did in every other manager change. That core is performing worse than under Nelsen. That's the bottom line and we all know it's those guys and not the DPs that make the teams.

    It doesn't take a professional football manager to see that we are almost as disorganized as we were with Winter in year one but also have a predictable offence that is easy to neutralize on the whole. A lot of people said it here earlier; it's not the losing under Vanney. It's how we're losing and also how badly we're playing even when we win (against the worst teams in the league at that).

    The only argument I ever see from his proponents are to keep him because they don't want change. Let's have a few posts with some solid reasons why we should keep him beyond not liking change or because he's only had 20 matches in charge. Let's have some meat & potatoes, show us why we should be optimistic posts. I'm listening.

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    I think the team has, above all, a mentality problem. We're soft. MLS is about 20% tactics and 80% hard work and playing as a team. I think Vanney's weakness is toughness, motivation and leadership ie. the 80%. You don't bring Mr. Rogers to a knife fight.
    Last edited by Canary10; 05-15-2015 at 07:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Wow. We have some of the best talent we've ever had. Hands down. But you're raising the level of players who struggled under Nelsen to incredible heights to make your point, Mighty.

    We all should expect more from those players as they are surrounded by "the best talent we've ever had". For sure. But the team is far from composed, player by player, the best we've seen in every role.
    you don't think this is the best group we have had? Which CB's have been better than Caldwell, Perquis and Hagglund? Nick Garcia??? Yes we are missing width in the wing, but we've never had a midfield remotely as good as Bradley, Cheyrou and Even Warner. It's the job of a good coach to put the players in a position to maximize their strengths, individual and collective, and minimize their weaknesses. We've got enough talent here's hat we should be a real force. Problem is, he doesn't seem to know how to protect the weaknesses, a core competency of a good coach

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    you don't think this is the best group we have had? Which CB's have been better than Caldwell, Perquis and Hagglund? Nick Garcia??? Yes we are missing width in the wing, but we've never had a midfield remotely as good as Bradley, Cheyrou and Even Warner. It's the job of a good coach to put the players in a position to maximize their strengths, individual and collective, and minimize their weaknesses. We've got enough talent here's hat we should be a real force. Problem is, he doesn't seem to know how to protect the weaknesses, a core competency of a good coach
    Hilarious. Use the all time defending goat of TFC to tilt the scale.

    Look elsewhere on this forum right now and you'll see question marks rising on every one of those defenders. Feel free to lay it all on the coach's doorstep. Just don't tell me that every individual mistake made by the team is on him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Most of them in the league.

    To go over that bit again.


    Vanney asks Morrow and Hagglund if they are comfortable to play RB. Morrow isn't, Hagglund is. (This is how Vanney operates) Hagglund has played there before.

    TFC spends all week stressing that Castillo is a speed merchant and you can not go high on him.

    TFC spends all week telling its mids that you can not give their mids space and time to pass the ball.

    TFC has no plans to play high and plans to press their mids.


    What happens in the first 20 seconds?


    Jackson doesn't press their LM.

    Hagglund goes high.


    You can not blame Vanney for poor execution.
    actually, you can. He didn't protect against our weaknesses. Very poor player management and tactics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Hilarious. Use the all time defending goat of TFC to tilt the scale.

    Look elsewhere on this forum right now and you'll see question marks rising on every one of those defenders. Feel free to lay it all on the coach's doorstep. Just don't tell me that every individual mistake made by the team is on him.
    It is MLS. Players have weaknesses or they would be in a higher league. What CB's, as a group, have been better than what we have today. Cann and Attakora? Ty Harden? Seriously. You can't name them

    does our team have weaknesses? Of course, but I don't think you can seriously argue that it's not our best group. pointing me to criticisms of players is a silly response. What group has been better? 2009?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    It is MLS. Players have weaknesses or they would be in a higher league. What CB's, as a group, have been better than what we have today. Cann and Attakora? Ty Harden? Seriously. You can't name them

    does our team have weaknesses? Of course, but I don't think you can seriously argue that it's not our best group. pointing me to criticisms of players is a silly response. What group has been better? 2009?
    I sure can. And its not silly to point out that best on paper doesn't translate to gameday. There have been far less touted players at this club who have put together better performances when they didn't have the offensive presence our present team does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    actually, you can. He didn't protect against our weaknesses. Very poor player management and tactics.
    Um, what part of "Hagglund was comfortable" & "TFC spends all week" do you not understand?


    Vanney can't kick the ball.


    You can't protect from players who don't follow the plan after being trained in it all week. Morrow as RB? Was anybody calling for that prior to the Dallas game? Nope. Were people suggesting Hagglund was a good choice for RB? Yup.


    You want to give Vanney a souped up DeLorean to go back in time and switch those 2?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Um, what part of "Hagglund was comfortable" & "TFC spends all week" do you not understand?


    Vanney can't kick the ball.


    You can't protect from players who don't follow the plan after being trained in it all week. Morrow as RB? Was anybody calling for that prior to the Dallas game? Nope. Were people suggesting Hagglund was a good choice for RB? Yup.


    You want to give Vanney a souped up DeLorean to go back in time and switch those 2?
    my personal opinion on this is that Vanney should have been braver with his choices in that Dallas game. Asking players about playing right back was a mistake to start off (the fact he asked Morrow about playing him there he obviously recognised in his skillset that he could). He is the manager, he is paid to make decisions which a lot of teh time players will not particuarly like.You look at the oppostion + you identify their strengths and you plan accordingly. Sure Hagglund has played RB berfore, but a tall, inexperienced and at times ungainly centre half against a flying winger was an accident waiting to happen. Someone else mentioned Hagglund is quick, over the first 5-10 yds he is not, he's fast enough when he gets into a gallop but by that stage the winger is long gone.
    Morrow is an experienced left back, it's not rocket science that he could do a job at right back. The fact that Vanney made the switch so early in the game and has kept Morrow at right back since proves that. If he had of made that call from the start, who knows what might have happened......

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Using that logic, we should have kept Nelsen. He'd only had a year and a half. I agree there have been moments under Vanney, and Morgan has thrived under his leadership, but the general trend is embarrassingly weak defensive play, a team that gives up easy goals at critical times again and again. Let's just hope that your blind faith is correct and that he will learn, because this is the best talent we have had and we should be competing against the best.
    Just imagine if we'd kept MoJo. We'd be a dynasty by now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad View Post
    Just imagine if we'd kept MoJo. We'd be a dynasty by now.
    If this as sarcastic as I think it is I'd have to agree with the sentiment in so far as it feels like an easy out to harp on the past and things we can't change than look to the future. I'd much rather see a hopeful replacement option for the current situation than
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    Mighty, you've pretty much gone and done the opposite of what you were crusading for last year. You, like myself kept stating that firing Nelson when they did was a horrible move, espeically to replace him with another inexperienced coach.

    Where we differ is that you're now the one seeking yet another coaching change when we've just begun the season and there have been so many factors (away dates/key injuries) that warrant more time for him.

    Instead of focusing on the negatives of Vanney I encourage you to look at the positives, there are quite a few.

 

 

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