And you confuse the hell out of me every time you do it!Originally Posted by OgtheDim
I've been doing that for 9 months.Lol
And you confuse the hell out of me every time you do it!I've been doing that for 9 months.
Kreis is interesting. Sounds like the owners sand bagged him with their own choices... I'd still be cautious though.
On the flip side: does he go back to RSL? Cesar can't have too much rope.
I'd press you on that. Winter, Preki and Nelsen all knew their soccer as did Cummins. Vanney gives the best press conferences, for sure. But does that mean he can translate that talk into action? Sometimes. But only sometimes.
Good post J
No, but his role as Captain was to marshall the teams he captained around the managers tactics - a role close to coaching, and at the highest possible level. He may or may not have been a good coach for TFC but to say he was out of his depth in MLS is simply silly.
Vanney has had to bench Altidore. Not quite getting the best out of him.....
Lot's of great players, including captains, are shit managers. Being a good player doesn't in anyway make you a good coach.
Altidore has 10 goals in 19 games, with one of the better goals per minute in the league.
Come on Oldtimer, Nelsen was a ,500 coach in 2014 and Vanney is the same in 2015. He was more defensive, Vanney is less. When Defoe was at his best, Nelsen didn't need to be offensive because the team was winning enough to be in the play offs. Similarly, when Givinco is at his best, Vanneys defence can hemmorage goals and still win sometimes - enough to be in the playoffs. Why we keep exGgerating Nelsens flaws and minimizing Vanneys is beyond me, your post being a good example.
pS Fascinating that Giovinco now has a similar injury to Defoe. Not the same, but similar. Let's hope Vanney can get more out of the team without Gio than he or Melsen were able to get out of The team without Defoe last season.
I think he was a decent coach with some blind spots, including his stubbornness about some players. But I may be wrong. To say he was a weak coach is fair comment, although you may be wrong. To say he was out of his depth is nonsense, unless you want to say the same thing about Vanney as they more or less have the same record, and as Vanney took over Nelsens team and made it worse last year. And as for "Nelsen was found out" read what others have been saying about TFC. vanney has apparently been "found out" (whatever that means) according to coaches like Marsch. And they are actually boasting about it in the press.
dont get me wrong - Nelsen should not have been fired when he was, it cost us the playoffs, and Vanney should not have been hired. For the same reason, we can't fire Vanney now. But in my view we need to be honest about him. Speaks well, can't defend. Therefore can't beat the good teams, only the weak ones. with the players we have, I'd like to see him do better.
Last edited by MightyDM; 09-02-2015 at 08:41 PM.
This was the state of Nelsen's team by the end of his tenure:
a) We weren't really playing with any tactics to speak of
B) Not a single player was playing up to their actual talent
C) he had won just 3 of his last 13, completely blowing the 3-4 games in hand we'd had for most of the year
D) There were reports of Nelsen having lost the locker room because him and his coaching team couldn't actually coach for shit
E) had just lost 3-0 to NE at home in what was probably the singlee most uninspiring performance in our entire nine years
Nelsen was legitamtly found out because he refused to ever, ever alter his tactics/formation when it was blatantly obvious he should. Vanney on the other hand, has repeatedly showed a willingness to try new things and throw off the opposition.
So no. Nelsen had a good half season based on statistical anomalies and individual moments of brilliance. Then the summer hit and things dried up and we started playing about as well as Nelsen's "coaching" would allow us. This is an entirely different situation to the one Vanney is currently in.
I get your point, but here's what a typical sound bite from the others would sound like....
Winter: "We tried hard but they scored.....tis pity....we are not good enough."
Preki: *silence......camera slapping*
Nelson (after TFC was outposessed 30-70 with 1 shot on goal after 90 mins): "I thought we were the much better team.....just unlucky."
In a different time with some more organizational structure (ie. like we have now) Winter COULD'VE been successful here, but imo there were the wrong people above him.
Also imo, Preki had NO tactics, just put 9 men behind the ball and hope for the best when in possession......similar with Nelson, but to a lesser degree.
I liked Cummins but his sample size is just too short.
Of course, we have no idea what is said behind closed doors to the team, but I guess the public comments can give an indication to the private ones. For example, in public Vanney comes across to me as a good tactician, but not a good motivator, and you can see from "All For One" that is close to right from the locker room clips. I think that is where Vanney lacks most, in motivating......he should let the players fire themselves up. But to me he's the only coach we've had who I've heard identify problems with the team in game and how to adjust them. Execution is another story no doubt, but I feel that the responsibility there lies more on the players.
If Winter took over the Youth Team, developed them to play his style, graduated the good ones to the first team, had a competent FO to bring players that could play that system... then yes, Winter may have worked, but it would have been like a 5-10 year plan... and still might not have worked well in this league, and pretty much ignores some good talent within the league simply because they are unused to the style.
It would have been a grand project, but, when Vancouver and Montreal consistently make the playoffs in front of Toronto...
So which of our defenders are world class? The quality players we have are offense players.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I think our GA is inflated because of the number of games that Bendik has started, despite the issues with our backline. That is entirely on Vanney though.
Montreal has made the playoffs once.
Not historically, i mean during that development time-frame of 5-10 years
Lol we don't even have world class attackers, world class is like Benzema, Higuain, Tevez, Suarez quality
Despite its flaws this is the best group of defenders ever at the club
Winter's best idea was his vision he had for TFC to be a true "club" from the youth levels up.....and had he had the support then, we only would've started seeing the benefits of that now.
But that's all n the past now....point being that out of what we've had, imo only with him there was some potential, because of his long term plan......but he generally expected too much from MLS players at the time.....
Lol. I asked a question. I never said that our attackers are world class on the Benzema etc. level.
We have "quality" players, those who play for national teams much better than Canada.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
The basement of the EPL isn't exactly the ceiling of the world game. Regardless, there is little evidence that a successful playing career translates into coaching any better than a meddling one does, except when it comes to gaining opportunities.
Actually, there are lots of coaches who have translated hard work and smarts into overachieving on the field (or ice) and then into successful coaching, at all levels. Nelsen has those attributes. Its the naturals - like Gretzky, that often do not succeed.
Late to the reply, but Perquis, Kantari, Williams, Zavaleta, Hagglund, Simonin are all better than Attakora/Cann, who were probably the most solid duo we had until last year. And at least the equal of Caldwell/ Doneil.
Justin Morrow is really good.
Cheyrou/Bradley is better than Amado Guevera and whoever played with him. Etc etc.
I actually think we agree here. he analyzes and talks, but unclear if he can effectively translate into team action.
I was impressed with his starting line up last game. Took guts to bench Jozy. And the subs - took guts to bring on Findley (who has been playing well) rather thank Gomez.
And, FWIW, I liked Nelsen's press conferences.. He was just cryptic. He would say "we haven't got the balance right," where Vanney says six interesting paragraphs. And by we, he meant the coaching staff, including himself.
I get that guys who made it through their work ethic, like Nelsen, as opposed to oodles of natural talent often make decent coaching candidates - but I'll backstop and say the whole thing reeked to a weak hire predicated on an old boys club and there's no proof that a player of Nelsen's ilk makes a better MLS coach than a lesser MLS career type.
Unfortunately, Nelsen's work ethic also didn't seem to apply to taking time to strengthen his coaching credentials prior to taking the job - which frankly is weak when plenty of other guys do towards the end of their playing careers. We were constantly fed BS about this great natural leader, whose public speaking consisted of numbing and looking at his feet, who just "knew" how things worked.
The guy got the job because of his connection to Payne and otherwise was grossly under prepared - it was cronyism, pure and simple. and also fit with a league that enjoys having cheap hires in the Hc spot.
haha yeah sounds like it....Vanney is a good tactician, but the players need to be better motivated, especially coming out of the gate....they always seem to settle after about 15-20 mins or so.
yes, the biggest difference in the two to me is that Nelsen seemed to be just that, cryptic, whereas Vanney seems to be a straight shooter......now, if those characteristics carry over into how they speak to the players, its no wonder why Nelsen's act wore thin here amongst the players.....but when TFC was outplayed as badly as they were in some games, and Nelsen chalked it up to being "just unlucky" its either trying to take the pressure off the players or just being blatantly ignorant to what's happening around you....and to me Nelsen had a bit of arrogance about him......Vanney does not....
I think you've summed up the differences in character, except that I'd add that Nelsen was a "player's friend' whereas Vanney is much more demanding. He's your boss not your friend, kind of in the old school vein. Not a complete jerk in the Preki model, but still someone you'd better perform for. You can see that quite easily in how he yells from the sideline, his facial expressions, how he reacts with the players.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
hmmm, I found Nelsen to be a bit of a hard ass tbh, and I think that is where he eventually lost the team.....its ok to be hard, but the results need to come with it.....but when you're hard, losing, and seemingly oblivious to what is going on, as Nelsen was at times, you're done....no one is going to follow your lead. Vanney does expect something out of the players, but I think the most important thing about him is that he's also becoming more aware of their limitations. But since it hasn't gone to shit this year (hopefully it stays like that lol), one could assume that regardless of how hard or not he is with the team, they do like playing for him. Now while you could easily put 2-4 wins on Giovinco, they also haven't mailed it in much if at all, like we've seen in the past. Quite the opposite actually....we've seen a share of comebacks this year. Sure there's more professional players, but team harmony also factors in to that imo, and that's set by the coach. While Vanney may not be the best motivator, or could be a bit hard, he seems to know how to keep the team "happy"......that's huge to me.
Clearly, as you surely have gathered I have a personal preference, for a certain style, stay organized, compact, defend first, attack on the counter, but I understand that different teams can be build differently, and the first thing is to built the team, to shape the tactics around the players that you have, to bring the best out of them, not to try to do something that you cannot do.
Having said that I am mixed about Vanney, as I have said, because he has been able to do great things with certain aspects of our game. I just think that with the talent we have, and I do believe we are a talented team, even past Giovinco, we should be stronger in more aspects of the game.
Ravi, we got a defender (Kantari) and a forward, which should have addressed two of our big needs. So I don't think you can say we got Gomez instead of a defender, as we got both. Now, whether or not Kantari is enough remains to be seen, but he has looked better as he gets more time in. We've hardly seen enough of Gonez to see if he can be helpful to us.
Last edited by Jack; 09-05-2015 at 09:41 AM.
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