The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[Ultra & Proud]

Coming in 5th or 6th in the east will be worse than "mid table".

As someone above said, what will matter far more is what happens next. Scraping in and getting blasted out of the first round (a la Montreal two years ago) is the same as missing the playoffs, in terms of meaning.

This is it. I worry that by squeaking in 6th we'll have met all our objectives and all is well even if we got hammered in that play in match. We'd get the 'most successful season yet' and 'learning experience' jazz to sell more seats (and hope) and jack the ticket prices a bit more than they already plan to. Then we'll wait until next year to see that we aren't progressing.

Progress is the key word. We did progress under Vanney offensively but regressed defensively but overall in the big picture I say we've progressed. However, I think we may have plateaued. Vanney may progress as well and get better or maybe he won't. We need to see whether he is the guy or not for the job and falling into 5th or 6th may put the blinders on.

[MightyDM]

Making the playoffs is important in terms of fan satisfaction and maintaining relevancy. But it's the playoff run that really matters. If we finish 6th and crash out immediately it's a failure. If we finish 6th and it all comes together and we make the final, who cares that we qualified in the last spot?

On Vanney, I still think he could be the long term solution, simply because he's pretty much the only TFC coach that has ever made tactical adjustments throughout a season. Early in the year we played a high line and got burned for it; Vanney has fixed that. Bradley was playing in a deep-lying role and not getting into the game; Vanney moved him upfield and he's had a huge impact (his poor game last weekend notwithstanding). Nelsen, Mariner, Winter, etc... they just swapped players in and out, putting out the same game plan week after week. That being said, the defense has been a huge problem the last stretch of games and Vanney hasn't been able to figure it out. That's concerning. And I've questioned his in-game adjustments or decisions many times. The jury is still out on him for me. I'm hopeful if just for the fact that another coaching change I feel could do some real damage to the team.

Just a couple of points: we did well under Carter and Cummins. I don't think it would be fair to say they made no adjustments. Secondly, but for a couple of games this season, Vanney's team have been totally porous at the back, and in more than two thirds of his games we have given up the first goal in the first half. This speaks to something missing in his coaching.

[BelfastBoy]

Just a couple of points: we did well under Carter and Cummins. I don't think it would be fair to say they made no adjustments. Secondly, but for a couple of games this season, Vanney's team have been totally porous at the back, and in more than two thirds of his games we have given up the first goal in the first half. This speaks to something missing in his coaching.

Coach Carter?

[shwade]

Agreed. We need to stop talking about the playoffs. It's pretty meaningless in the expanded format. Making the playoffs this year will happen solely because they beat Philly and Orlando 5 times.

Right now they are something like 2-6-3 against the better teams in the league. That has to get better by season's end.

This.
The bar is set far too low for this team if squeezing into the playoffs is considered progress.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Coach Carter?

[MightyDM]

Just listening to Vanney you can tell he has a tactical mind. His only problem is inexperience. Someone like Bruce Arena has the ability to see this and understands that Vanney has a promising future.

Our only problem is the present. TFC has always been saddled with less experienced coaches (save for Preki). Fans feel like they can't wait another 2-3 years until Vanney turns into a solid coach. He has clearly improved from year 1, but that's not good enough for many on this board or on social media.

The key is can Vanney do enough now to keep his job, and eventually form this team into a legit challenger, or will the usual Toronto thing happen and we end up with yet another new untested coach, this time with less tactical potential?

Tactical, analytical mind, yes. But coaching is about lots of other things too: motivation, endless reps to ensure players react rather than thinking, making good in game decisions, etc. it's there he is questionable. He often says "we talked about it in trying" as if talking about a system or a player is enough, when was is required is actual on field work.

[Ultra & Proud]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/633696087027531776

[Oldtimer]

Tactical, analytical mind, yes. But coaching is about lots of other things too: motivation, endless reps to ensure players react rather than thinking, making good in game decisions, etc. it's there he is questionable. He often says "we talked about it in trying" as if talking about a system or a player is enough, when was is required is actual on field work.

I'm well aware of that (I spent years coaching amateur players). It's hard for us to measure things like that, so we're guessing (unless someone speaks out, like with Preki or Mo). Bad results can either be the players' attitudes (coach has some influence on but is not omnipotent), the quality of the players themselves (the best coach in the world can't turn crap into gold) -- which is on league limitations and on Bez, and sometimes the coach.

My own take is that Vanney has the mind for a lot of these things, but needs further maturing to reach his potential. I'm sick and tired of green coaches for my club, but given that there are only a handful of really great coaches in the league (and the best have great gigs in either NY or are enjoying the west coast) it would be very hard to get someone more qualified, especially given our history. Who wants to coach for half a season and get fired?

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/633696087027531776

propaganda for the masses. The real stuff is told in the locker room, not to journalists.

[ManUtd4ever]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/633696087027531776

If that isn't an indictment of Bendik's goalkeeping, I don't know what is. Let's see if he goes with him again next game.

[kwhisperer]

We are not the decision makers on this matter so discussing this matter endlessly is getting a little tired. Just enjoy the Reds in whatever way you want and take it from there. There is only one opinion that matters at the end of the day and its not ours.

Wouldn't that go for a huge percentage of what is discussed in these forums?

[kwhisperer]

If that isn't an indictment of Bendik's goalkeeping, I don't know what is. Let's see if he goes with him again next game.

It does suggest starting Bendik is more about principle and stubbornness than giving the team the best chance to win.

[ag futbol]

Is playoffs enough for another season? I personally think it would be since it is a hurdle we have never overcome even tho 60% of teams make it and we are in the weaker conference. We have picked up points on the road when teams in the past never have. It's just that I was stunned last game that Vanney didn't adjust and when he did it was too late. In fact he set-up right into Red Bulls hands and they just played their game which we all knew was coming. I expected big changes at half or at least 55th min when it was clear the game plan was dead wrong. Vanney has promise but last game was hard to take for me.

Agree with the season and see where we stand.

A strong finish and a competitive first round (even if we go out) that would be my ask. Helps us carry momentum into next year. If that doesn't happen, feels like we're selling ourselves short.

[ManUtd4ever]

A strong finish and a competitive first round (even if we go out) that would be my ask. Helps us carry momentum into next year. If that doesn't happen, feels like we're selling ourselves short.

Agreed.

[Richard]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/JohnMolinaro/status/633696087027531776

He is right, the midfield was absolutely shite and hung them out to dry.

[OgtheDim]

Playoffs are enough for ownership, management and I would argue most fans.

[ryan]

Coming in 5th or 6th in the east will be worse than "mid table".

As someone above said, what will matter far more is what happens next.

Scraping in and getting blasted out of the first round (a la Montreal two years ago) is the same as missing the playoffs, in terms of meaning.

Scraping in and going on a tear, like RSL in 2009, that would move the needle.

We pay thrice in tickets. MLSE hangs up their "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner.

[TFC07]

It doesn't take two seasons to figure out if someone is right manager or not.

I feel like Vanney is wrong choice from beginning due to lack of experience. Not only that, but when TFC spending big money on players, then making playoffs shouldn't be their main goal. TFC should be aiming for Eastern Conference title at least.

TFC needs an experience manager who can handle big name players while able to get best out of average MLS player. TFC simply don't have enough time to train/groom a manager who could one day be able to handle this club direction.

[Jack]

It doesn't take two seasons to figure out if someone is right manager or not.

I feel like Vanney is wrong choice from beginning due to lack of experience. Not only that, but when TFC spending big money on players, then making playoffs shouldn't be their main goal. TFC should be aiming for Eastern Conference title at least.

TFC needs an experience manager who can handle big name players while able to get best out of average MLS player. TFC simply don't have enough time to train/groom a manager who could one day be able to handle this club direction.

Vanney hasn't even been the coach for a full year, yet alone two seasons. TFC should be aiming for the Eastern Conference, of course, but you don't go from worst in the league to best in less than a year. Bez and Vanney inherited a shitshow of a roster and have done a good job of cleaning it up, boosted by some big name signings. Building depth and a system takes longer than a year or even two, no matter how much experience the manager has. Especially in MLS where depth players are so important because of the cap.

I question whether we are getting the most out of this roster with Vanney, but we are not contenders in this league yet. We have a solid foundation, but we need more depth. Bez addressed the backup scoring issue by bringing in Herculez and he thought he'd helped the defence with Kantari, who has been underwhelming. But the most troublesome thing for me from the last few games is that our midfield, supposedly one of our strengths, has been overrun. This also makes our defence look worse than it is. But firing yet another coach after less than a year at the helm is one of the few things this organization hasn't tried yet.

[kwhisperer]

Playoffs are enough for ownership, management and I would argue most fans.

In one sense playoffs would be good enough for this day-one STH in that, if they fail, I can't think of any reason why it would be worth continuing to follow them. For me it would be disastrous. Maybe a baby step but at least playoffs would show they've achieved something and gave themselves a shot at going on. Really, I would be happy with making playoffs with some cushion...and at least playing very competitively in any and all playoff games.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

babysteps, playoffs would be a step in teh right direction, not the ultimate goal

[trane]

I'm pretty sure that Bruce Arena's opinion matters more than any opinion held by the soccer public or pundits, and he rates Vanney as good. I think everyone is forgetting that MLS doesn't just exist to improve the American player pool, but also the American coaching pool as well. Vanney isn't going anywhere - the Don and USSF want him developing with good talent at his disposal so he knows what to do with it when he eventually becomes a USMNT coach in about 3 world cup cycles.

I do not give a shit about Bruce fucking Arena. Vanney may end up being a great coach somewhere else, and he has done some good things here. But he has not been able to get this team to defend all season long, and before, and he has costs us games. AGAIN I am not for firing him, just so that we can once again hire the next unproven manager.

[brad]

It doesn't take two seasons to figure out if someone is right manager or not.

I feel like Vanney is wrong choice from beginning due to lack of experience. Not only that, but when TFC spending big money on players, then making playoffs shouldn't be their main goal. TFC should be aiming for Eastern Conference title at least.

TFC needs an experience manager who can handle big name players while able to get best out of average MLS player. TFC simply don't have enough time to train/groom a manager who could one day be able to handle this club direction.

This is harder than you think. There is a big difference between dealing with big name players and the "lowly" MLS regulars. Not a lot of managers are going to have that range of experience.

And for experienced managers coming in from a higher level, it is going to be a real challenge and source of frustration when you have to work with players who don't have the fundamental knowledge and skill set they are used to all players having.

And spending big money has a limited effect when it can only go into 3 players. 3 players have yet to carry an entire team to success in this league. You need a strong core of regular MLSers to play with those players to succeed.

[trane]

I agree with Vanney in that I do not believe that the backline was the problem in the last game.


I still hope that he can get this team to defend well, I just have trouble seeing it.

Has vanney not had a full year yet? It has been just about a year since Nelsen was fired.

[CommradePolski]

Vanney hasn't even been the coach for a full year, yet alone two seasons. TFC should be aiming for the Eastern Conference, of course, but you don't go from worst in the league to best in less than a year. Bez and Vanney inherited a shitshow of a roster and have done a good job of cleaning it up, boosted by some big name signings. Building depth and a system takes longer than a year or even two, no matter how much experience the manager has. Especially in MLS where depth players are so important because of the cap.

I question whether we are getting the most out of this roster with Vanney, but we are not contenders in this league yet. We have a solid foundation, but we need more depth. Bez addressed the backup scoring issue by bringing in Herculez and he thought he'd helped the defence with Kantari, who has been underwhelming. But the most troublesome thing for me from the last few games is that our midfield, supposedly one of our strengths, has been overrun. This also makes our defence look worse than it is. But firing yet another coach after less than a year at the helm is one of the few things this organization hasn't tried yet.

See DC United. They did. They were the worst of the lot in 2013 and in 2014 were top of the East. In this league it is possible to go from the worst to the best in one season.

EDIT: To add to the DC United comment, they were 2nd overall in the East in 2012.

I know most of you have seen the All For One episodes, if not go on youtube, and all I can say, whenever theyve shown Vanney trying to fire the team up before a match and say something, he comes across as a wet noodle IMO. I dont feel anything from Vanney in the locker room scenes in A41, absolutely nothing. Its almost demotivating.

[brad]

See DC United. They did. They were the worst of the lot in 2013 and in 2014 were top of the East. In this league it is possible to go from the worst to the best in one season.

EDIT: To add to the DC United comment, they were 2nd overall in the East in 2012.

I know most of you have seen the All For One episodes, if not go on youtube, and all I can say, whenever theyve shown Vanney trying to fire the team up before a match and say something, he comes across as a wet noodle IMO. I dont feel anything from Vanney in the locker room scenes in A41, absolutely nothing. Its almost demotivating.

NYRB did it as well. Dead last in the East in 2009, first in the East in 2010.

DC are an interesting case. Olsen, a manager with no experience took over mid-season in 2010 and had a record of 3W-8L-1D for the remainder of that season. The following years:
2011 - 7th in the East
2012 - 2nd in the East
2013 - dead last in the East
2014 - 1st in the East
2015 - Currently first in the East

So yes, DC did turn it around over the course of one season, but after their coach had been there for a few years already.

[Ajax TFC]

DC also had a decent base, but they came in last. Then they signed a bunch of experienced MLS players using their "you suck" allocation, which tipped the balance.
TFC signed a bunch of quality players, but still don't have the domestic depth needed. Most of our domestic depth is still young and inexperienced.

[molenshtain]

Let's keep in mind that we have a stupendously easy run in. While unlikely, I could see us winning every game after Seattle away on Sep 5th.

[trane]

If this version of the TFC management team really is better than past regimes, they will do what no other TFC front office has ever done in the 8+ losing seasons:
Stay the course with the coach they have.

If they do change managers now - they are no better than past regimes.
No better than MoJo years, no better than the Anselmi after Mojo years - doesn't matter what coach they bring in because they would be losers just like those other guys.
Losers who don't know what the fuck they are doing. Doesn't matter if they bring in Jose Mourinho - they will fuck it up because that is the trend they would be following.

If 8+ years of no playoffs has taught this club anything - it should be not to fire/push out the manager to try and get into the playoffs.

We have always kept managers way longer then needed to realize that they were not cutting it, and then hired the first person who was available. Keeping someone who is not doing the job, after it is clear that he cannot do the job, is exactly what we have always done. Hiring someone who has no proven track record is also a problem. If you brought in someone who has proven that he can win, and has won over a extended period of time, I may even be ok with well lets keep him for two season to realy give him a chance, reasoning. But bringing in someone who does not have a track record at this level of football, who has not been able to address the teams primary problems, in the seasons worth of games, just to see if he can change is wishful thinking.

Again having said that I am not a 100% against Vanney in that we have played better then ever in some games, but I am unsure that he will ever be able to get the defensive side of things in order.

[ManUtd4ever]

Let's keep in mind that we have a stupendously easy run in. While unlikely, I could see us winning every game after Seattle away on Sep 5th.

I would like to agree with you, but based on our recent form, we shouldn't take anything for granted. We have to regain the form we had earlier in the season. Our possession and movement off the ball was our strength.

[barticusz]

This is a great write up on the best shot limiting teams in MLS.. I'd love to see what TFC's heat map looks like.

http://www.americansocceranalysis.co...-the-heat-maps