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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    ^ If we come out and play similar football on Saturday, I will agree with you. Yesterdays team display was very good, and makes me think that they have turned the corner despite Saturdays loss.

    But I still hope that we can find a way to win/get points, when people are bunkering down and/or we are not in top form.
    and our 13 away points aren't indicative we can do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    ^
    Oldtimer,

    If we come out and play similar football on Saturday, I will agree with you. Yesterdays team display was very good, and makes me think that they have turned the corner despite Saturdays loss.

    But I still hope that we can find a way to win/get points, when people are bunkering down and/or we are not in top form.

    CBTFC- really??? Is that what we are doing, did we miss the part of the season where we lost and lost and lost, or the previous season where we did the same? There were clear reasons to question Vanney, particularly after the shit Dallas game, were we played some of the worst defensive football I have ever seen. Now it looks like it has come together, although Saturday raised some questions.
    Every team goes through tough stretches...I wonder if other team's supporters groups have also started a deathwatch for their respective coaches after a couple of bad games.

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    The thing is, last night's performance wasn't an anomaly. The team has had several games as of late in which our possession was strong and our attack was fluid. We have been gradually improving in that regard, which is to be expected with so many new faces in the lineup.

    I think this club can still take it to another level in the second half of the season if everyone stays healthy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    The thing is, last night's performance wasn't an anomaly. The team has had several games as of late in which our possession was strong and our attack was fluid. We have been gradually improving in that regard, which is to be expected with so many new faces in the lineup.

    I think this club can still take it to another level in the second half of the season if everyone stays healthy.
    The other thing I like to see is that we actually have some guys who can come off the bench and play.
    Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy

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    @trane I'm starting to think you're the only one left that still thinks Vanney is not capable of managing this team.

    An absolutely fantastic performance to win yesterday, shortly after a loss (which they also controlled the match in). TFC is the 4th best team this season based on ratings from Whoscored.

    We have NEVER played the way we are playing now. The losses will come but at least we're in ever match and for the most part constantly creating chances. I feel like we can score every single time we move up the field, it's an absolute pleasure to watch this team so far this year.

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    We still have to deal with anti-football. We solve that and then we're looking good. Also worried about a post Gold Cup hangover but that happens.

    Also part of the reason we looked so good yesterday was because Montreal's tactics were shit and their refusal to alter their game plan killed them. They just gave us way too much room. When we play teams that give us space and time then we will look good and score enough to win. I worry about the teams that will crowd us and do hard presses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    ^
    Oldtimer,

    If we come out and play similar football on Saturday, I will agree with you. Yesterdays team display was very good, and makes me think that they have turned the corner despite Saturdays loss.

    But I still hope that we can find a way to win/get points, when people are bunkering down and/or we are not in top form.

    CBTFC- really??? Is that what we are doing, did we miss the part of the season where we lost and lost and lost, or the previous season where we did the same? There were clear reasons to question Vanney, particularly after the shit Dallas game, were we played some of the worst defensive football I have ever seen. Now it looks like it has come together, although Saturday raised some questions.
    Yes, the part of the season where we were away from home. By your standards, Sigi Schmidt's job should raise concerns as well because his away record is worse than ours. Seattle has lost his past 3 games out of 4 on the road, New England has lost the past 4 in a row, and DC has 4 points from the last 5 away games. LOL, out of 9 games, LA hasn't got a single win.

    This is where we are right now:

    R Team P W D L GF GA GD Pts Form
    1 Toronto FC 9 4 1 4 14 13 1 13 LLWWDW
    2 Orlando City 8 3 2 3 10 12 -2 11 WLLDWL
    3 DC United 8 3 1 4 5 7 -2 10 WLDLLW
    4 New York City FC 8 2 2 4 7 9 -2 8 LLLLWW
    5 New England Rev. 9 2 1 6 10 18 -8 7 WDLLLL
    6 New York Red Bulls 7 1 3 3 9 12 -3 6 WDLDLL
    7 Philadelphia Union 9 1 2 6 11 22 -11 5 DLLWLL
    8 Montreal Impact 7 1 1 5 4 14 -10 4 DLLWLL
    9 Columbus Crew 7 0 3 4 4 12 -8 3 DDLLDL
    10 Chicago Fire 7 0 2 5 6 14 -8 2 LLDDLL

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    We still have to deal with anti-football. We solve that and then we're looking good. Also worried about a post Gold Cup hangover but that happens.

    Also part of the reason we looked so good yesterday was because Montreal's tactics were shit and their refusal to alter their game plan killed them. They just gave us way too much room. When we play teams that give us space and time then we will look good and score enough to win. I worry about the teams that will crowd us and do hard presses.
    I'll out on a limb and say most teams that subscribe to a formational identity or play-style won't be highly conservative like NYC on the weekend. If the handball wasn't called, the game would have played out much differently.
    Last edited by PopePouri; 06-25-2015 at 11:45 AM.

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    I won't go on an anti-MLS playoff rant but I will say that I don't get the panic when looking at the standings as a justification for Vanney's progress.

    MLS Success is a two stage process.

    1) Be in the top 60% of the teams in your conference

    2) Win the tournament

    maybe a 2b) - or at least go far in the tournament


    This part of the season is about making 1) happen. It's happening. Yes, home advantage exists if you do better but let's be realistic… MLSE will sell a 6th place finish and playoff birth as a success just as much as they would sell a 1st place finish.

    These games are essentially exhibition games with a little bit more on the line.

    That's it. Vanney is doing fine.

    As for 2)… even a top coach can lose a tournament.

    If we were table focused, I'd say more of an emphasis on coaching should exist. Vanney may be terrific or he may be just good enough. Either or, it counts about the same in this current MLS format.

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    I don't understand the lack of faith in Vanney, especially when considering not only our current standing in the league but also the way we play.

    I won't go into much detail on our current standing because, well, look at the standings and see for yourself.

    Vanney is by far the best "coach" that we have ever had at TFC. BY FAR. I say coach and not manager, because as some have mentioned at times his team selections are not ideal. But hindsight is always 20/20.... Regardless, that will improve the more experience he gets with the team and as a manager in general. He is miles ahead of other managers with his level of experience.

    The two things that stand out to me that are absolute game changers that Vanney can be attributed with are our players confidence on the ball and our movement OFF the ball.

    This is the first season that every single player on the field, and those being subbed in, are actively looking to receive the ball. Every season prior, we have had players starting and subbing in that you could tell, would have preferred to never touch the ball during a game.

    This change in confidence, sure could be attributed to the players, but you can see a change in the whole team not just our star (designated) players. This confidence with the ball is also transfers into our off the ball movement, which as mentioned is MILES ahead of where it has ever been. You can say it is triangles, or whatever, but what it boils down to is the fact that our players are constantly moving without the ball, getting into space and re-distributing it. We are making more passes, with conviction, than I have ever seen us before. The passes are smart as well, when deep we are constantly drawing opposing forwards all over the field while they try to chase the ball down. Which in turn creates space between their attackers and mids that we exploit.

    I could go on and on but don't want to write a book, I easily could on how much we have improved. All the people that are still complaining about Vanney should remember the days when all anyone wished for was "to lose but at least still look good doing it" Now we are winning and looking like a top quality team while doing it!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    The other thing I like to see is that we actually have some guys who can come off the bench and play.
    Agreed.

    Man u agreed

    barticusx, I agree with you with the game yesterday. I do not think that Vanney is not capable of managing the team, I was concerned by the start of the season, and the game Saturday brought those concerns back.I am starting to think that we have turned the corner, and Vanney has us in the right direction.

    What people seem to miss is when this thread was started.

    AND yes I do think we need to get more points on the road and drop less at home. We have what it takes to dominate this league.
    Last edited by trane; 06-25-2015 at 05:44 PM.

  11. #311
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    The best thing about Giovinco is that he kind of explodes the ability of many teams to play "anti-football", because he can just take defenders apart on his own.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    I don't really care about Vanney. He's neither good enough or bad enough to matter. I do care about Bez - I still question him as GM.

    The muggings are about to start in earnest. Giovinco especially is a marked man.

    This team has never, not once, been anything better than pathetic in August.

    We'll know what we have then.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I don't really care about Vanney. He's neither good enough or bad enough to matter. I do care about Bez - I still question him as GM.

    The muggings are about to start in earnest. Giovinco especially is a marked man.

    This team has never, not once, been anything better than pathetic in August.

    We'll know what we have then.
    I could argue that this team has never played in August.
    Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy

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    ^ This is what kind of drives my doubts, I want us to get as good and get as many points as we possibly can until then. although there are many reasons to believe that we will make it through. I think we have many more options at pretty well all positions right now.

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    I look at our August schedule and see a lot of potential points.

    6 games.

    4 home games - 2 against Orlando, and one each against SKC and the Impact.

    Away games are at NER and NYRB.

    Could we slide downwards through all those 6 games given our Gold Cup guys will be back? Maybe. But, we match up well against them all I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I don't really care about Vanney. He's neither good enough or bad enough to matter. I do care about Bez - I still question him as GM.

    The muggings are about to start in earnest. Giovinco especially is a marked man.

    This team has never, not once, been anything better than pathetic in August.

    We'll know what we have then.

    Let's not talk about DP's
    What don't you like about Bez's signings/moves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Let's not talk about DP's
    What don't you like about Bez's signings/moves?
    Hoo boy... here we go.

    The DPs are Leiweke and the owners, so I agree, they are not relevant

    Findley/Cheyrou/Perquis all older guys likely to wear out or get hurt down the stretch. Only one of the 3 that has been worth the money we are likely paying (where are the 2015 MLS salaries btw?) has been Cheyrou.

    We are not getting anything out of 2014 and 2015 MLS drafts, despite having had 3 top 10 picks.

    He totally bungled Laba, and maybe Gilberto too.

    The rest of the roster he inherited ex Morrow. Morrow is the one name he gets some credit for (although Nelsen claimed that one too)

    What else is it that I should like, exactly? The fact that he let Vanney bring Delgado in? The fact that we signed an HG player (Chapman)? Where are the building blocks that he is finding, identifying, bringing in?

    We can pretend these things aren't true all we want, but Bez is pretty much a joke. His mistakes have been papered over with $100M. This is not a job for kids. Bradley is the actual GM right now I'd guess.

    There is a big problem here, which we give the team a free ride on. This isn't about this year's results. Where are the long term assets?
    Last edited by ensco; 06-26-2015 at 07:55 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Let's not talk about DP's
    What don't you like about Bez's signings/moves?
    You know what I don't like about Bez? He needs a new tailor. Every time I see him, it looks like he's wearing his father's suit. It gives off the impression of youth and inexperience. With a better tailor, I think I would have more confidence in him.

    (oh, his moves? No, those have been pretty solid)

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    The draft is a crap shoot tbf.

    Out of the 2014 top 10 their are two significant first team contributors (Birnbaum and Akindele). 3 if you count Hagglunds performance last year and the start of this year.

    Out of the 2015 top ten there are two significant first team contributors (Larin and Polster) and 2 bit part players (Sheldon and Alashe) the rest of the top 10 are toiling in the USL. Bono was the consensus BPA when we picked at 6. Simonin was defo an off the board pick but looked like a smart one after his performance in Utah, pitty he picked up the knee injury.

    I'd say we've drafted just fine tbh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    The draft is a crap shoot tbf.

    Out of the 2014 top 10 their are two significant first team contributors (Birnbaum and Akindele). 3 if you count Hagglunds performance last year and the start of this year.

    Out of the 2015 top ten there are two significant first team contributors (Larin and Polster) and 2 bit part players (Sheldon and Alashe) the rest of the top 10 are toiling in the USL. Bono was the consensus BPA when we picked at 6. Simonin was defo an off the board pick but looked like a smart one after his performance in Utah, pitty he picked up the knee injury.

    I'd say we've drafted just fine tbh.
    Hagglund doesn't count. Starting for a last place team, then losing 100% of your minutes, isn't that significant.

    You make a good point about the crap shoot. I still think one of the three has to hit.

    I made 4-5 other points, it wasn't hanging on the draft anyway.

    I forgot the Oduro deal with Columbus, where Bez got fleeced, and the Warner-Issey deal, which I do like (always did).

    But overall it's a poor performance.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Hoo boy... here we go.

    The DPs are Leiweke and the owners, so I agree, they are not relevant

    Findley/Cheyrou/Perquis all older guys likely to wear out or get hurt down the stretch. Only one of the 3 that has been worth the money we are likely paying (where are the 2015 MLS salaries btw?) has been Cheyrou.

    We are not getting anything out of 2014 and 2015 MLS drafts, despite having had 3 top 10 picks.

    He totally bungled Laba, and maybe Gilberto too.

    The rest of the roster he inherited ex Morrow. Morrow is the one name he gets some credit for (although Nelsen claimed that one too)

    What else is it that I should like, exactly? The fact that he let Vanney bring Delgado in? The fact that we signed an HG player (Chapman)? Where are the building blocks that he is finding, identifying, bringing in?

    We can pretend these things aren't true all we want, but Bez is pretty much a joke. His mistakes have been papered over with $100M. This is not a job for kids. Bradley is the actual GM right now I'd guess.

    There is a big problem here, which we give the team a free ride on. This isn't about this year's results. Where are the long term assets?
    One objection I have with this is that you excuse the DP's and put that on ownership, however you hold him for the moves with Laba and Gilberto to accommodate those moves.

    Can't have it both ways, if you want to withhold credit, then you have to withhold the other end to IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Hagglund doesn't count. Starting for a last place team, then losing 100% of your minutes, isn't that significant.

    You make a good point about the crap shoot. I still think one of the three has to hit.

    I made 4-5 other points, it wasn't hanging on the draft anyway.

    I forgot the Oduro deal with Columbus, where Bez got fleeced, and the Warner-Issey deal, which I do like (always did).

    But overall it's a poor performance.
    Don't get me wrong, i don't think he's stellar. Compared to some other MLS GMs I think he's doing just fine.

    You're forgetting getting Crevalle for the allocation order spot too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Hagglund doesn't count. Starting for a last place team, then losing 100% of your minutes, isn't that significant.

    You make a good point about the crap shoot. I still think one of the three has to hit.

    I made 4-5 other points, it wasn't hanging on the draft anyway.

    I forgot the Oduro deal with Columbus, where Bez got fleeced, and the Warner-Issey deal, which I do like (always did).

    But overall it's a poor performance.
    The Oduro deal worked out very well for us in my opinion. Essentially we got rid of Rey, and through another trade, Oduro, we picked up Warner. I much prefer Warner over Rey, while Rey was a great player with great talent, he would be lost in our current system. Every ball out wide to him he would go around 3 to 4 players and then lose beside the corner flag.

    I have always though Warner was a great pick up, not sure why people are so up and down on liking/dis liking him. He is very strong on the ball and comfortable in possession. He will never be Bradley or Cheyrou, but he is a very strong MLS level deep lying midfielder. The exact type of player you need to have after your big spending Bradley/Cheyrou types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrillos View Post
    The Oduro deal worked out very well for us in my opinion. Essentially we got rid of Rey, and through another trade, Oduro, we picked up Warner. I much prefer Warner over Rey, while Rey was a great player with great talent, he would be lost in our current system. Every ball out wide to him he would go around 3 to 4 players and then lose beside the corner flag.

    I have always though Warner was a great pick up, not sure why people are so up and down on liking/dis liking him. He is very strong on the ball and comfortable in possession. He will never be Bradley or Cheyrou, but he is a very strong MLS level deep lying midfielder. The exact type of player you need to have after your big spending Bradley/Cheyrou types.
    Post of the year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    One objection I have with this is that you excuse the DP's and put that on ownership, however you hold him for the moves with Laba and Gilberto to accommodate those moves.

    Can't have it both ways, if you want to withhold credit, then you have to withhold the other end to IMO.
    I am talking about resolving Laba (and Gilberto), not signing them. The signings belong to others.

    Those resolutions were terrible (well Laba for sure, nobody knows re Gilberto, which makes you wonder)
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    What's making you wonder about the Gilberto deal? It's pretty straight forward, he's on loan at Vasco for the year and they have the option to buy at the end of the year*. TFC aren't paying his wages.

    Between Molinaro, Larson and the Brazilian media, all the info is out there.

    * Vasco are probably going to go straight back down to Serie B so highly doubt they redeem their option.

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    From all the reports I have heard it was Bez that got the ball rolling with Bradley, not Lewike...

    So if you give Bez the credit for Bradley, he then must get some credit for also punting Defoe and getting Alitdore as without Bradley I highly doubt that he would have come to TFC

    I agree his handling of the Laba and Gilberto was terrible, but I would still rather have Bradley and Altidore. All GM's have terrible drafts, trade etc... It just depends on if the good out weighs the bad and at this point he has built a team that IMO can compete for a title. The team has the best balance of youth with upside and savy veterans. I will take Bez's handling of the Laba and Gilberto to be where we are now compared to what we have witnessed the last 8 years

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    100 million on 3 players can't paper up cracks and weaknesses with rest of the team and we have decent enough options to compliment our DPs.

    Our long term options including all 2015 draftees all reside with TFC 2. Something Bez can take credit for. Maybe you should watch a few of their games.
    Last edited by PopePouri; 06-26-2015 at 09:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I am talking about resolving Laba (and Gilberto), not signing them. The signings belong to others.

    Those resolutions were terrible (well Laba for sure, nobody knows re Gilberto, which makes you wonder)
    I guess that's fair, but inheriting others mess then having such heavy intervention gives rise to the idea (for me at least) that he is doing the best in a pretty impossible situation given those contracts and how the MLS operates with them.

    As well, there isn't any definitive proof on what happened with Laba other than speculation as the MLS won't disclose the contract details. Laba's contract was a huge fucking mess, he wasn't supposed to be a DP and Payne ended up fubbing it so badly that the only way to actually get him here was to load the contract in with the transfer fee. The fact that Bez had to find some other team willing to eat that so we could fit in Bradley....seems unnecessarily harsh on that one to me.

    I do agree with your overall point of evaluating with Bez has done though, no dispute there. It deserves to be looked at closely. As far as what signings belong to whom (between Bez and Ryan) I don't think we know enough to make those calls. Ryan brought in Defoe and sold him as the solution to TFC's woes then tried to smuggle him out to the detriment of the club. I blame the organization (or lack thereof) for not letting GM's do their jobs at TFC.
    Road Trips: July 7 2007 Chicago, July 22nd 2007 Columbus, August 11 2007 NY, October 13 2007 LA, March 29 2008 Columbus, May 24th 2008 DC, May 26 2008 Montreal, June 28th 2008 NE, March 7-11-14 2009 Charleston, March 28 2009 Columbus, April 10 2010 New England, May 12 2010 Montreal, April 7 2012 Montreal, March 16 2013 Montreal , June 3 2014 Montreal, March 14 2015 Columbus

    Twitter: @RPBPhil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post

    I do agree with your overall point of evaluating with Bez has done though, no dispute there. It deserves to be looked at closely. As far as what signings belong to whom (between Bez and Ryan) I don't think we know enough to make those calls. Ryan brought in Defoe and sold him as the solution to TFC's woes then tried to smuggle him out to the detriment of the club. I blame the organization (or lack thereof) for not letting GM's do their jobs at TFC.
    That should go on Lieweke. Bez was forced to play nice with someone with different philosophies.

 

 

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